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Replace Local with an Intel Tool!!!!
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#21 - 2012-01-27 01:22:44 UTC
Mary Annabelle wrote:


+1

Give me a range bonus for being in friendly space, and a penalty for being in hostile space. Otherwise, this works too.


This is a good possibility too. It needs to be balanced where holding sov doesn't equate to full intel, but rather a mild bonus, perhaps in conjunction with an IHUB upgrade.

I'm really not a fan of static mods that auto-populate the intel, especially if they reside at a POS.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#22 - 2012-01-27 05:15:34 UTC
Question. Docked players. Do they get to see players in the local system via any form of station side scanning?

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#23 - 2012-01-27 06:02:12 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Question. Docked players. Do they get to see players in the local system via any form of station side scanning?


I suggested they would get station-based intel, although I really didn't expand upon that concept.

I believe they should be privy to intel about the number ships in space, but not necessarily ship types or player identities unless those ships are near the station (?within 4 au?). Truthfully, the sharing of intel between fleet members should allow an easy circumvention of most station-based scanning limits, so I didn't think this was a major issue. However, if your operating solo, especially in Lowsec or NPC nullsec, I definitely see why these limits would be important.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#24 - 2012-01-27 06:10:20 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
Question. Docked players. Do they get to see players in the local system via any form of station side scanning?


I suggested they would get station-based intel, although I really didn't expand upon that concept.

I believe they should be privy to intel about the number ships in space, but not necessarily ship types or player identities unless those ships are near the station (?within 4 au?). Truthfully, the sharing of intel between fleet members should allow an easy circumvention of most station-based scanning limits, so I didn't think this was a major issue. However, if your operating solo, especially in Lowsec or NPC nullsec, I definitely see why these limits would be important.


Ok.

Maybe flesh out station side scanning a bit. Post those details.

As for seeing player status as docked. Can we fleet the station? How else will we know a player is docked if we are outside? (This is under the assumption that the "guest" tab inside the station is removed or set to delayed at the same time as local)

If the guest tab remains untouched, it's not really different from having local the way it is now.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#25 - 2012-01-27 06:30:10 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
Question. Docked players. Do they get to see players in the local system via any form of station side scanning?


I suggested they would get station-based intel, although I really didn't expand upon that concept.

I believe they should be privy to intel about the number ships in space, but not necessarily ship types or player identities unless those ships are near the station (?within 4 au?). Truthfully, the sharing of intel between fleet members should allow an easy circumvention of most station-based scanning limits, so I didn't think this was a major issue. However, if your operating solo, especially in Lowsec or NPC nullsec, I definitely see why these limits would be important.


Ok.

Maybe flesh out station side scanning a bit. Post those details.

As for seeing player status as docked. Can we fleet the station? How else will we know a player is docked if we are outside? (This is under the assumption that the "guest" tab inside the station is removed or set to delayed at the same time as local)

If the guest tab remains untouched, it's not really different from having local the way it is now.


I do not believe we need to fleet the station. As for knowing how a player is docked in station... I would assume the same way we'd know that a particular pod pilot is flying a particular ship; by scanning it with your ship's scanners. I'm sure we could debate sci-fi lore about the feasibility of this, but I don't think that's necessary.

Quote:
If the guest tab remains untouched, it's not really different from having local the way it is now.

If ALL pilots were docked in station, then you're right, its not much different. But, if a new pilot enter's local, you don't know their ship type, nor if that pilot is friend or foe UNLESS they take their ship and fly it next to the station. To help balance this, they don't know if pilots are in station, nor how many pilots are in station unless they fly their ship next to station.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#26 - 2012-01-27 15:27:10 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
Question. Docked players. Do they get to see players in the local system via any form of station side scanning?


I suggested they would get station-based intel, although I really didn't expand upon that concept.

I believe they should be privy to intel about the number ships in space, but not necessarily ship types or player identities unless those ships are near the station (?within 4 au?). Truthfully, the sharing of intel between fleet members should allow an easy circumvention of most station-based scanning limits, so I didn't think this was a major issue. However, if your operating solo, especially in Lowsec or NPC nullsec, I definitely see why these limits would be important.


Ok.

Maybe flesh out station side scanning a bit. Post those details.

As for seeing player status as docked. Can we fleet the station? How else will we know a player is docked if we are outside? (This is under the assumption that the "guest" tab inside the station is removed or set to delayed at the same time as local)

If the guest tab remains untouched, it's not really different from having local the way it is now.

I would suggest the main detail is who controls the station.

If the station is NPC owned, it will try to be neutral, and won't care if the pod pilots can be scanned. The info has limited value, as they will all read as being either in pods, or just docked, since they don't have an active ship.

If a station is controlled by an alliance, they should be able to set the station to block scans, jam, whatever. It can be a station service that is subject to being destroyed too, allowing free scans once it is disabled.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#27 - 2012-01-27 15:42:21 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
I'm really not a fan of static mods that auto-populate the intel, especially if they reside at a POS.


I respect your view, but keep in mind CCP will want changes to be popular to as many as possible.

Right now, Null sec is SOV happy. People working as teams to win SOV feel they deserve intel in systems where they are acknowledged as the owners.

In many systems, this is for the purpose of moon goo, PI, mining, or ratting, as this is how they get an income.

They want to lock the door, and keep everyone else out, but this is considered unfair gameplay, and is blocked.
Ok, then they want to at least know what is coming or going, to justify the effort it took to claim that space.

Why are they claiming space, if the mining and ratting, etc, has no benefit compared to unclaimed or simply NPC space?

It gives them security, and protection. If that means just intel, fine.

How do you make a Hulk mining better off in friendly SOV space. Keep in mind, having them scan continuously has already been shot down in other threads. They want something equal to or easier than current local, as they own the space in question.

I had suggested a POS module, (it may need to sit outside shields like a Jump Bridge to scan), that gave friendly pilots a delayed list of ship types active, along with a Friendly / Other breakdown of these types.
When it was pointed out they still had to scan continuously or be ganked, I put in a hostile flag. It gave ONLY an indicator that something not blue was in system, no details, types, or numbers.

How would you resolve this?

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#28 - 2012-01-27 17:18:24 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
I'm really not a fan of static mods that auto-populate the intel, especially if they reside at a POS.


I respect your view, but keep in mind CCP will want changes to be popular to as many as possible.

Right now, Null sec is SOV happy. People working as teams to win SOV feel they deserve intel in systems where they are acknowledged as the owners.

In many systems, this is for the purpose of moon goo, PI, mining, or ratting, as this is how they get an income.

They want to lock the door, and keep everyone else out, but this is considered unfair gameplay, and is blocked.
Ok, then they want to at least know what is coming or going, to justify the effort it took to claim that space.

Why are they claiming space, if the mining and ratting, etc, has no benefit compared to unclaimed or simply NPC space?

It gives them security, and protection. If that means just intel, fine.

How do you make a Hulk mining better off in friendly SOV space. Keep in mind, having them scan continuously has already been shot down in other threads. They want something equal to or easier than current local, as they own the space in question.

I had suggested a POS module, (it may need to sit outside shields like a Jump Bridge to scan), that gave friendly pilots a delayed list of ship types active, along with a Friendly / Other breakdown of these types.
When it was pointed out they still had to scan continuously or be ganked, I put in a hostile flag. It gave ONLY an indicator that something not blue was in system, no details, types, or numbers.

How would you resolve this?


I'm not sure this is needed. The hulk pilot always gets notice when a new ship enter's local, and doesn't need nor benefit from spamming their dscan for threats. They can align while a fleet mate checks whether the new entry is hostile, and by being vigilant, they can easily keep their ships alive. Your intel system thread originally hid the fact a potential threat is even in system, hence why you needed a POS mod to flag threats. This system makes potential threats quickly known, but purposely leaves ambiguity on if its a friend or foe. False alarms will wane people's vigilance, and the potential tools for deception really add a new aspect to this game. Also, Mining and Ratting in a Sov system is already significantly improved with sov upgrades, so they don't need free omniscient intel to motivate to PvE there.

My main opposition to the POS modules is that its not vulnerable, and realistically it would take a sizeable fleet to disable. Additionally, the Intel mod your asking for is too omniscient, especially when spammed at every POS in system. Any in-space mod would need to be limited, where enemies can easily disabled and/or deceive it. I think this is very difficult to balance, and so didn't even attempt to include it, especially since I don't think its particularly needed.


Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#29 - 2012-01-27 17:55:04 UTC
OR you could replace your eve suscription with one to WoW. Seriously, local is a basic means of knowing who is in system. If you really want to kill someone while hiding your numbers, use cyno fields. Use black ops, use covert ops. There are a ton of options that you can use to ambush people.

If you are talking about in wars/suicide ganking in empire..... go to WoW and never come back. (insert extreme prejudical hatred upon you, here)
Dantes Wolf
Interstellar Corporation of Universal Management
#30 - 2012-01-27 17:56:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Dantes Wolf
I support this, both as a solo PVP'er and an explorer - gatecamps will become more popular, but once you bypass those, your more or less safe when out of scanrange - PVP will become less tho, obviously - seeing as the casual "woops, theres a guy in local, lets kill him" will happen a lot less - which, again from my standpoint, is a good thing as I travel mostly alone. However, this is also a benefit when travelling in groups: The game, with this suggestion, suddenly becomes strategy and real life intell gathering which basicly means more play for our money.

Drawbacks are, if they are that, lowsec will become safer, group work will be amphasized more, since the ability to locate and hunt down targets will require bigger teams, and more intell, which again leaves that Empire wardecks might become the new deal. On the other hand, since lowsec is suddenly "safer" a far out grav site, might be mined to dust, by a whole army of nabs, who stayed undiscovered by even hordes of enemy PVP'ers.

As a whole, dynamics and the game will change, but results are we will have a much more intense time in low, as we never know whats there, and further that the whole travelling outside of highempire space, will suddenly add a thrill like that of the thrill from "Alien" or another horror flick.

Basicly, with this suggestion, EVE becomes an emotional journey when leaving highsec, and that to me makes this suggestion one of the most potent ones ever to hit this board:

You never know what your gonna find, or who finds you: Thrills.

Perfect idea.

+1

"Before you diagnose yourself with low selfesteem and depression, you should first make sure, that you are not just, in fact, surrounded by assholes".
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#31 - 2012-01-27 18:19:54 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
I'm not sure this is needed. The hulk pilot always gets notice when a new ship enter's local, and doesn't need nor benefit from spamming their dscan for threats. They can align while a fleet mate checks whether the new entry is hostile, and by being vigilant, they can easily keep their ships alive. Your intel system thread originally hid the fact a potential threat is even in system, hence why you needed a POS mod to flag threats. This system makes potential threats quickly known, but purposely leaves ambiguity on if its a friend or foe. False alarms will wane people's vigilance, and the potential tools for deception really add a new aspect to this game. Also, Mining and Ratting in a Sov system is already significantly improved with sov upgrades, so they don't need free omniscient intel to motivate to PvE there.

My main opposition to the POS modules is that its not vulnerable, and realistically it would take a sizeable fleet to disable. Additionally, the Intel mod your asking for is too omniscient, especially when spammed at every POS in system. Any in-space mod would need to be limited, where enemies can easily disabled and/or deceive it. I think this is very difficult to balance, and so didn't even attempt to include it, especially since I don't think its particularly needed.


Ah. Unless i am mistaken, you have left this instant knowledge with the cost being: Must be in a fleet.

Well, some players play even when they must do so solo.

But, with no lingering benefit from their corp / alliance, they need to get intel somehow while mining / ratting, etc.

And if solo Hulks are present for mining. Do they need to be in a belt close enough to auto-warn if someone comes in a gate?

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#32 - 2012-01-27 18:59:27 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:

Ah. Unless i am mistaken, you have left this instant knowledge with the cost being: Must be in a fleet.


Yes and no, let me explain:
1.) Being in fleet has HUGE advantages under this scheme... it's rewarding teamwork (or multiple accounts), both of which CCP should be salivating over. IMO, this is very much acceptable.

2.) Your assuming you CAN place a scout at all entrances to a system... which you can't. WH's popping up, people logging in, Jump Bridges, and/or people cyno'ing / jump portaling are all methods to circumvent gates, and allow for "unknowns" to enter local. Your scouts have to cover all these means to provide the instant knowledge you currently gain from local. Is this possible... occasionally, but I have no qualms with vigilant groups of pilots utilizing the intel mechanics to remain safe.

Nikk Narrel wrote:

Well, some players play even when they must do so solo.

But, with no lingering benefit from their corp / alliance, they need to get intel somehow while mining / ratting, etc.

And if solo Hulks are present for mining. Do they need to be in a belt close enough to auto-warn if someone comes in a gate?


Solo Players do NOT need lingering benefit from their corp/alliance regarding up-to-date intel... They do need enough information to get their ship safe if a potential threat comes into local... And this system gives them EXACTLY that information. As they are mining, if a new pilot enters local... they soon pickup a ship on scan... Unless it's close, they don't know the ship type, nor if it's friend or foe, but as long as they don't ignore the knowledge of about a new ship, they can get their ship safe, or they can align and prepare to get their ship safe. If they assume the new unknown is friendly (which in many places it typically will be), then by the time they discover otherwise they might be in trouble... The main idea is that they quickly learn about the presence of a potential threat, and it's their responsibility to either identify the nature of that threat, or prepare for the worst.

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#33 - 2012-01-27 19:10:48 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
... The main idea is that they quickly learn about the presence of a potential threat, and it's their responsibility to either identify the nature of that threat, or prepare for the worst.


Ok, this next part may be unexpected.

I PREFER the version you have.

I consider it better than my idea in my thread, simply because it makes intel personal, not instant system-wide nonsense, which breaks logic when you think about the system as a whole.

(logic wise, my system does work, but gameplay to me is more fun Gizznitt's way)

You got my vote.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#34 - 2012-01-27 19:16:13 UTC
Metal Icarus wrote:
OR you could replace your eve suscription with one to WoW. Seriously, local is a basic means of knowing who is in system. If you really want to kill someone while hiding your numbers, use cyno fields. Use black ops, use covert ops. There are a ton of options that you can use to ambush people.


A lot of people feel they should be given free instant omniscient knowledge about who's in local. I don't. I think adding some ambiguity adds a very interesting new dimension to this game. And while using cynos and Jump Portals to hide your numbers to surprise your enemies, this is a very different mechanic than those for two major reasons:
1.) You can't pragmatically scout a cyno/jump portal drop. You can scout a gangs traveling through a system
2.) You can't hide who you are within the current local chat, but with effort and careful flying, you CAN hide your identity under this scheme. This anonymity adds ENORMOUS potential for game play. Its powerful, and hence, it very much needs to be balanced. Think about it...

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#35 - 2012-01-27 22:15:54 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
A lot of people feel they should be given free instant omniscient knowledge about who's in local. I don't. I think adding some ambiguity adds a very interesting new dimension to this game. And while using cynos and Jump Portals to hide your numbers to surprise your enemies, this is a very different mechanic than those for two major reasons:
1.) You can't pragmatically scout a cyno/jump portal drop. You can scout a gangs traveling through a system
2.) You can't hide who you are within the current local chat, but with effort and careful flying, you CAN hide your identity under this scheme. This anonymity adds ENORMOUS potential for game play. Its powerful, and hence, it very much needs to be balanced. Think about it...


Too many battles in this game are the tactical equivalent of two groups throwing rocks at each other.

Strategy is one person shouting for everyone to throw at the same person.

We have fringe elements of damage counteracting, and throw blocking by making them unable to target.
Even rarer, we have a few making token assaults with cloaked vessels, more comparable to annoying mosquito bites than any serious impact. (Noone notices these usually when larger fleets fight)

The few exceptions to this can be listed by the witnesses, and stand out for that very reason, they are the exceptions to the rule.

The changes described would add an element of finesse to the game, above and beyond the crude strategies already in place.

Good things.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#36 - 2012-01-30 15:20:32 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Mary Annabelle wrote:


+1

Give me a range bonus for being in friendly space, and a penalty for being in hostile space. Otherwise, this works too.


This is a good possibility too. It needs to be balanced where holding sov doesn't equate to full intel, but rather a mild bonus, perhaps in conjunction with an IHUB upgrade.

I'm really not a fan of static mods that auto-populate the intel, especially if they reside at a POS.


That sounds ok, I just wanna have enough warning to scram before "HappyToKillYa' gets on grid with me.

I would also like some kind of color code for detected ships that are not defined as friend or foe, so I don't mix em up.

In all likelihood, I will be focused on mining, or hauling, and will need to see this warning in my side vision. I don't know anyone who parks their ship, and waits for someone to show up so they can warp out just in time.

On a side note, what about NPC space. Is this to be a total off the grid area, or can a corp put down something to help their members. Since it is NPC space, it would not be exclusive, so you could have many corps wanting the bonus too.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#37 - 2012-01-30 19:07:27 UTC
Mary Annabelle wrote:
In all likelihood, I will be focused on mining, or hauling, and will need to see this warning in my side vision. I don't know anyone who parks their ship, and waits for someone to show up so they can warp out just in time.


This has historical precedent, in that nearly all societies respect the concept of needing to be warned for protective reasons.

it is called an ALARM.

Now, it seems reasonable, (on spaceships capable of FTL travel no less), that something as simple as an automated warning like this could be set up.

It could be as easy as AURA's voice announcing,"Unknown ship detected".

This is because the things we set alarms against, tend to require our sudden and unplanned attention. If we were actively watching for fires, and never slept or did anything else, we would not need fire alarms.

Alarms can be set, and deactivated, as needed. Ah, the joys of modern technology Big smile

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#38 - 2012-01-31 15:34:50 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Mary Annabelle wrote:
In all likelihood, I will be focused on mining, or hauling, and will need to see this warning in my side vision. I don't know anyone who parks their ship, and waits for someone to show up so they can warp out just in time.


This has historical precedent, in that nearly all societies respect the concept of needing to be warned for protective reasons.

it is called an ALARM.

Now, it seems reasonable, (on spaceships capable of FTL travel no less), that something as simple as an automated warning like this could be set up.

It could be as easy as AURA's voice announcing,"Unknown ship detected".

This is because the things we set alarms against, tend to require our sudden and unplanned attention. If we were actively watching for fires, and never slept or did anything else, we would not need fire alarms.

Alarms can be set, and deactivated, as needed. Ah, the joys of modern technology Big smile

I want this!!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#39 - 2012-01-31 15:42:40 UTC
Mary Annabelle wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Mary Annabelle wrote:
In all likelihood, I will be focused on mining, or hauling, and will need to see this warning in my side vision. I don't know anyone who parks their ship, and waits for someone to show up so they can warp out just in time.


This has historical precedent, in that nearly all societies respect the concept of needing to be warned for protective reasons.

it is called an ALARM.

Now, it seems reasonable, (on spaceships capable of FTL travel no less), that something as simple as an automated warning like this could be set up.

It could be as easy as AURA's voice announcing,"Unknown ship detected".

This is because the things we set alarms against, tend to require our sudden and unplanned attention. If we were actively watching for fires, and never slept or did anything else, we would not need fire alarms.

Alarms can be set, and deactivated, as needed. Ah, the joys of modern technology Big smile

I want this!!


I personally have no qualms with this... although I imagine a lot of people would find it very annoying. If it is ever implemented, it would need to be an option... and not something required!!
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#40 - 2012-01-31 19:00:41 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Mary Annabelle wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
it is called an ALARM.

I want this!!


I personally have no qualms with this... although I imagine a lot of people would find it very annoying. If it is ever implemented, it would need to be an option... and not something required!!


That seems fair, I have no problem reading the manual, pilots who rushed off without planning would still get chewed up.
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