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[Sadface] for my Dramiel and other faction frigates
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Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-01-27 22:00:39 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I don't agree.. AFs totally eclipse the Dram, Worm, and Succubus. The Daredevil and Cruor both have 90% webs and thus still retain some niche utility. Empire faction frigs are utterly outclassed by AFs.

-Liang


Looked at Worm and Succubus. Not too inspiring it is true. Not that I want any buff to them for fear of another Pirate Frigate mess like the whole Dramiel OP phase casting a dark cloud over frigate PVP for so long.
The Dramiel still has uniqueness. Fastest Frigate with AF-like damage.

Perhaps the role of Pirate Faction Frigates should be "Not necessarily more powerful than AFs, but offering unique niche utilities". Let them remain the side-show and please never let them become the main show and replace T2 again.

And it is very bad for the market and inflation when Pirate Faction Frigates get too popular and become the de facto standard like the Dram did. This is because they are obtained through missions and not invention like T2. Therefore supply cannot catch up with demand, causing massive inflation and crushing frigate PVP with costliness.

The role of Empire Faction Frigates seems to be "cheap mid-ground between T1 and T2". That seems like a perfectly good niche. I expect them to fall in price.

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#22 - 2012-01-27 22:03:03 UTC
Darthewok wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I don't agree.. AFs totally eclipse the Dram, Worm, and Succubus. The Daredevil and Cruor both have 90% webs and thus still retain some niche utility. Empire faction frigs are utterly outclassed by AFs.

-Liang


Looked at Worm and Succubus. Not too inspiring it is true. Not that I want any buff to them for fear of another Pirate Frigate mess like the whole Dramiel OP phase casting a dark cloud over frigate PVP for so long.
The Dramiel still has uniqueness. Fastest Frigate with AF-like damage.

Perhaps the role of Pirate Faction Frigates should be "Not necessarily more powerful than AFs, but offering unique niche utilities". Let them remain the side-show and please never let them become the main show and replace T2 again.

And it is very bad for the market and inflation when Pirate Faction Frigates get too popular and become the de facto standard like the Dram did. This is because they are obtained through missions and not invention like T2. Therefore supply cannot catch up with demand, causing massive inflation and crushing frigate PVP with costliness.

The role of Empire Faction Frigates seems to be "cheap mid-ground between T1 and T2". That seems like a perfectly good niche. I expect them to fall in price.


God forbid that NPC 0.0 space has something in demand to export to high sec. Roll

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#23 - 2012-01-27 22:03:30 UTC
Diomidis wrote:
Dramiels got a small nerf, blasters got a big buff, so indirectly, probably the second most popular solo-roam frig hunter - the taranis - could already go after and probably kill MSE Dramiels that had no web, something that only a DD could claim pre-patch.

The new ASs are simply a class of their own in Frig PVP. Did not fly one other than a MSB Harpy I already had for a test run vs. a friend's Vengeance yesterday, but it seems that very few frigs other than other ASs can come even close to beat these ships - unless we are talking bad (i mean unsuccessful-brilliant-experimental) fits and/or different class of pilots together.

What would kill a Dramiel (and any other frig) before, is still exceptionally viable against ASs...bad news is, that these "Solutions" are not open for most frigs, as we would need a combination of at least two of: drones / med+ neuts / web / good tracking / proper dmg type to start chewing through them.

Good news is, that prices for the popular faction frigates will go down, and it's not like those will be useless now.
ASs were extremely underused, so Dramiels weren't looking for those to get kills anyways...
There still be other T1, faction and light T2 frigs out there for you to fight...


Dram's were good before Cruiciable... but they still had many weaknesses. Pre-cruicbile dram's often fell to prey to the kestrel, the helios, the taranis, and many other 'lesser' ships.

The new assault ships are quite potent... but like dram pilots of old, the new FOTM pilots will still leave many weaknesses to exploit!! I look forward to the challenge... especially when I gank my first retribution... with a helios!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#24 - 2012-01-27 22:08:16 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Dram's were good before Cruiciable... but they still had many weaknesses. Pre-cruicbile dram's often fell to prey to the kestrel, the helios, the taranis, and many other 'lesser' ships.

The new assault ships are quite potent... but like dram pilots of old, the new FOTM pilots will still leave many weaknesses to exploit!! I look forward to the challenge... especially when I gank my first retribution... with a helios!


I hear there are a lot of FOTM AF pilots on late night in Amamake. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Korg Tronix
Mole Station Nursery
#25 - 2012-01-28 16:03:20 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I don't agree.. AFs totally eclipse the Dram, Worm, and Succubus. The Daredevil and Cruor both have 90% webs and thus still retain some niche utility. Empire faction frigs are utterly outclassed by AFs.

-Liang


Worms can still have a niche against the new AFs as they have the utility and tank to do so, DD and Cruor likewise. The other two just wont cut it against AFs inside scram range anymore.
All the navy frigs, minus the Slicer, are completely surpassed by AFs in most situations except maybe trying to kill tackle on gangs as they are faster, still have a decent tank and generally good damage so they can run easier if need be.

Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! [zaps one of his minions accidentally, minion screams]
Dorian Tormak
RBON United
#26 - 2012-01-28 17:00:18 UTC
I hear DDs are pretty tanky with their IFFAs and SARs.

Holy Satanic Christ! This is a Goddamn Signature!
Korg Tronix
Mole Station Nursery
#27 - 2012-01-28 17:33:01 UTC
Dorian Tormak wrote:
I hear DDs are pretty tanky with their IFFAs and SARs.


Dont be obtuse, you know what I meant. DDs have the 90% web which means they have something the AFs cant necessarily combat, similar to the Worms ability to drop 5 ECM drones or dictate range on some of the AFs without losing out on DPS.

Is it fool proof, no but AFs aren't guaranteed a win against those unlike when they fight pretty much everything else. Its more that they have just obsoleted p. much every other frigate, why bring the pirate frigs which can win against most frigs when you can bring one that is just as, if not more effective that cost 1/3 of the price.

Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! [zaps one of his minions accidentally, minion screams]
Ahrieman
Codex Praedonum
Divine Damnation
#28 - 2012-01-28 20:25:07 UTC
Here is my list of frigs that can compete with a well setup AF (not including niche or lol fits):

Daredevil
Slicer - provided that you can break the AF's tank

END OF LIST

Solo Rifter since 2009
Kn1v3s 999
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2012-01-29 00:07:10 UTC
problem about Faction is they cost too much for what they can offer compared to an AF, that makes it obsolete.

Enyo can have same dps of a DD, x2 the tank, full tackle and cost around 20M
only thing that DD can have more is speed/agility and the 90%web, great stuff, but worth 60M more only for the hull? dunno, for me not anymore tbh
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