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Vanguard Sport
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Goumeka Ghalvia
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-01-27 15:59:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Goumeka Ghalvia
Vanguard Sport

Vanguard sites in Incursions have long become a sport. They are quick, not too difficult and fairly rewarding.

Because entering a site isn’t a big commitment there are plenty of fleets that are willing to compete for a chance to deny the opponent the payout and shorten their own time per site.
When there are no competitions, organized Incursion running clubs like SSN, ISN and alliances like Polaris and Sk33t Fl33t run sites in time trial mode and try to shave off as much time off the site as possible.
For many it has become more than a way to make ISK. It is a social low risk PvE sport where the competition and the tears of the losing opponents are worth more than money.
And this is where a way to lower the Incursion ISK output comes from.

Reward competition.

Decrease the payout per site if there’s only one fleet in it and increase the payout for competed sites.


Possible adjustments.

It is important to keep the payout balanced. Current 10 million ISK per site reward is good. Average time ranges from 3 to 6 minutes.

If the concept of competition is brought in, consider these payouts:

• 8 million ISK for a site with a single fleet of 10.
• 12 million ISK for a competed site with two fleets in.
• 14 million ISK for a competed site with three fleets in.

It’s enough of an incentive to push people into more competition thus lowering the total reward gained by everyone in a Vanguard system.

Exploiting.

As was suggested by a few people, introducing this mechanic leaves a lot of room for exploiting by bringing a fleet of several alts that will be maintained by the main fleet to maximize profits.
As of now I can't come up with a way to prevent it from happening.

Role-players.

I’m aware that many role-players are upset about the never ending farming of Incursions and find it immersion breaking, however, think of the cynical nature of capsuleers as they are portrait in the lore. Profit and personal entertainment above needs of planet dwellers and generally others.
Vanguard sites are a perfect arena to flex your muscles and show your skill to the other fleets without engaging them in direct combat.


Leading the way.

Creating this sport will once again put CCP ahead of competition as this type of an experience has not been seen in any current or upcoming MMO.

Other Incursion sites.

All that said same concept can hardly be applied to Assault and Headquarter sites as they are a much bigger commitment due to the time they take to complete. Those sites also need to be rebalanced perhaps increasing the total payout and difficulty, making them a more common type of a PvE raid experience where your main enemies are the NPCs.
YoungMoney CashMoney Billionaires
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-01-27 16:09:19 UTC
Do you believe the myth that there are people who can 10 box vanguards?
Shu Jia
Mineski Infinity
Pandemic Horde
#3 - 2012-01-27 16:11:32 UTC
yes i do and we meet one before. Nice post
Goumeka Ghalvia
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-01-27 16:15:00 UTC
YoungMoney CashMoney Billionaires wrote:
Do you believe the myth that there are people who can 10 box vanguards?


Not a myth. Vanguards and Assaults have been done by a single multiboxer before.

However any competition will mean no payout for him as controlling 10 and more accounts as efficiently as a normal fleet can is simply not possible.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-01-27 16:15:57 UTC
YoungMoney CashMoney Billionaires wrote:
Do you believe the myth that there are people who can 10 box vanguards?

more like dualboxing

.
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#6 - 2012-01-27 16:18:18 UTC
so reward shiny fleets and poo on lower level cash poor fleets?

for some reason I just can't back incursions as a method of making the rich richer
YoungMoney CashMoney Billionaires
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-01-27 16:22:06 UTC
Goumeka Ghalvia wrote:
YoungMoney CashMoney Billionaires wrote:
Do you believe the myth that there are people who can 10 box vanguards?


Not a myth. Vanguards and Assaults have been done by a single multiboxer before.

However any competition will mean no payout for him as controlling 10 and more accounts as efficiently as a normal fleet can is simply not possible.




will have to disagree with you. this someone that i discovered earns over 5 bil a day with 2 hisec incursions up, imagine what he pulls in with 3, which means he can earn the plex he needs for those 10 accounts in a day and pocket the rest after that, srs Big smile
Goumeka Ghalvia
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-01-27 16:22:26 UTC
Morganta wrote:
so reward shiny fleets and poo on lower level cash poor fleets?

for some reason I just can't back incursions as a method of making the rich richer


This is always the case and it'll remain that way.
EVE is too realistic for that not to be the case.

Novice fleets always attempt to avoid competition and look for the least populated systems to practice and make ISK.
As Assault and Headquarter sites would remain a PvE raiding experience you can suggest that novice fleets start there until they are organized enough and have good equipement to compete in Vanguard sites.
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#9 - 2012-01-27 16:22:51 UTC
Goumeka Ghalvia wrote:
When there are no competitions, organized Incursion running clubs like SSN, ISN and alliances like Polaris and Sk33t Fl33t run sites in time trial mode and try to shave off as much time off the site as possible.


So that's what's Polaris is doing now.... huh..

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
YoungMoney CashMoney Billionaires
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-01-27 16:26:43 UTC
oh and actually, this player laughs at the current incursion interdiction as it only helped him due to players selling their shiny ships and quitting incursion altogether lol Lol
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-01-27 17:02:43 UTC
I fully support the killing of moms to stop incursionbears.

Dodixie > Hek
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
#12 - 2012-01-27 17:24:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Azorria
How about more competition means the same reward, but split according to contipution, eg, fleet A does 40% of the dps, fleet B does 60%. Fleet A gets 4 million isk per person, Fleet B gets 6 million isk per person (assuming 10 million isk per person base reward)

This means that smaller un-shiny fleets still get something if a big shiny fleet suddenly shows up and clears the site, and fleets will be encouraged to find uncontested sites, even if they have to do assaults or even... HQs (The HORROR!Shocked).

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice.
nate555
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-01-27 17:30:53 UTC
I've decided not to do incursions. They are a waste of time looking for a fleet in a 400 full system. So I will stick to the missions. Money can be made if done correcting. Although some LP stores should be changed. Some are krap.
Goumeka Ghalvia
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-01-27 17:35:50 UTC
Grey Azorria wrote:
How about more competition means the same reward, but split according to contipution, eg, fleet A does 40% of the dps, fleet B does 60%. Fleet A gets 4 million isk per person, Fleet B gets 6 million isk per person (assuming 10 million isk per person base reward)

This means that smaller un-shiny fleets still get something if a big shiny fleet suddenly shows up and clears the site, and fleets will be encouraged to find uncontested sites, even if they have to do assaults or even... HQs (The HORROR!Shocked).


I will follow the advice in your sig and keep silent.

On a more serious note. You're missing the point. Incursions are provinding too much ISK to too many people. Competitions already lower that amount but not enough. This further helps seal the ISK leak.
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
#15 - 2012-01-27 18:05:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Azorria
Goumeka Ghalvia wrote:
Grey Azorria wrote:
How about more competition means the same reward, but split according to contipution, eg, fleet A does 40% of the dps, fleet B does 60%. Fleet A gets 4 million isk per person, Fleet B gets 6 million isk per person (assuming 10 million isk per person base reward)

This means that smaller un-shiny fleets still get something if a big shiny fleet suddenly shows up and clears the site, and fleets will be encouraged to find uncontested sites, even if they have to do assaults or even... HQs (The HORROR!Shocked).


I will follow the advice in your sig and keep silent.

On a more serious note. You're missing the point. Incursions are provinding too much ISK to too many people. Competitions already lower that amount but not enough. This further helps seal the ISK leak.


Hmm... You are right incursions do provide to much isk, but after that it all goes wrong.

My way hes the same amount of isk being paid out, but being paid out to the more of people, your way has more isk being paid out to the same amount of poeple,

My way gives everyone something, you way has the elitist shiny fleets gettting even more isk. and can be exploited by using a fleet of low sp alts to make the site 'contested'.

So yeah, clearly I am an idiot... I will however refrain from calling you an idoit as you at least recognise that there is a problem, unlike so many others.

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice.
Goumeka Ghalvia
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-01-27 18:14:57 UTC
Grey Azorria wrote:
Hmm... You are right incursions do provide to much isk, but after that it all goes wrong.

My way hes the same amount of isk being paid out, but being paid out to the more of people, your way has more isk being paid out to the same amount of poeple,

My way gives everyone something, you way has the elitist shiny fleets gettting even more isk. and can be exploited by using a fleet of low sp alts to make the site 'contested'.

So yeah, clearly I am an idiot... I will however refrain from calling you an idoit as you at least recognise that there is a problem, unlike so many others.


Don't take offense. It was meant as a joke.

You're heading in direction of other MMOs that give everyone a reward of doing something.
That's not how EVE works. The rich get richer and the poor need to use their brains to be able to compete.

Splitting the reward drives people away from competitions and into boring, single fleet existance.
It is a social experience and is about competing so bringing more people together is a good thing.

Lower the income of the general population of Incursion runners and reward those who are more dedicated.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-01-27 18:16:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Goumeka Ghalvia wrote:
YoungMoney CashMoney Billionaires wrote:
Do you believe the myth that there are people who can 10 box vanguards?


Not a myth. Vanguards and Assaults have been done by a single multiboxer before.

However any competition will mean no payout for him as controlling 10 and more accounts as efficiently as a normal fleet can is simply not possible.



/me whispers "Synergy"

Because noone ever thought of creating software to duplicate actions on one computer to many.

Don't ban me, bro!
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#18 - 2012-01-27 18:18:05 UTC
so... I'll take in a fleet of 1 heavily tanked ship (which another fleet will keep repaired) and take a 1 mill cut from each of the other 10 people.

We all make 11 million.

Or I get another friend to do this as well. we make about 11. the runners make 12. Stuff like this will /always/ be gamed.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Goumeka Ghalvia
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-01-27 18:23:58 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
so... I'll take in a fleet of 1 heavily tanked ship (which another fleet will keep repaired) and take a 1 mill cut from each of the other 10 people.

We all make 11 million.

Or I get another friend to do this as well. we make about 11. the runners make 12. Stuff like this will /always/ be gamed.


You'd have to beat a fleet of organized people who focus on just their own small fleet. Good luck doing that when your attention is being spread around.

Also never doubt the wit of others. Where you find exploits, others will too.

Same applies to Mr Kidd's reponse.
Synergy is the only way to multibox a whole Incursion fleets but you won't lock as fast, shoot as fast and keep eyes on everything as well as a fleet of real people.
Goumeka Ghalvia
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-01-27 18:31:03 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
so... I'll take in a fleet of 1 heavily tanked ship (which another fleet will keep repaired) and take a 1 mill cut from each of the other 10 people.

We all make 11 million.

Or I get another friend to do this as well. we make about 11. the runners make 12. Stuff like this will /always/ be gamed.


Missed something initially. You forget that the second fleet (even if it's your friends) get nothing from the site if you dealt more DPS and won. Total reward in a competed site with two fleets is (for example) 12 million ISK. It all goes to the winner. So if you want to share, you only make 6 million per site.
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