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Ishtar. Why not medium blasters?
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Mister Kwong
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-01-27 08:46:09 UTC
I always thought it weird that the Ishtar (and Vexor) used small blasters. You would think that an Ishtar should use medium blasters. But the majority of the popular pvp fits on Battleclinic says otherwise. Why not use medium blasters?
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2 - 2012-01-27 08:48:37 UTC
Battleclinic fits are bad.

Use medium blasters and fly for the win.

(they are hard to fit due to the pitiful CPU of Ishtar, that is all, you will need fitting mods/implants)

.
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#3 - 2012-01-27 09:43:02 UTC
It's just not worth the fit-gimping you need to do in order to get the medium guns on there in most cases.

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
Dorian Tormak
RBON United
#4 - 2012-01-27 15:14:34 UTC
Roime wrote:
Battleclinic fits are bad.

Use medium blasters and fly for the win.

(they are hard to fit due to the pitiful CPU of Ishtar, that is all, you will need fitting mods/implants)


Typical Eve forum moron reply.

Guess what, they have a rating system. The good fits tend to be rated pretty high.

And fitting medium blasters on an Ishtar is pretty stupid. Looks like you're the one whose fits suck.

Holy Satanic Christ! This is a Goddamn Signature!
mama guru
Yazatas.
#5 - 2012-01-27 15:40:13 UTC
Dorian Tormak wrote:
Roime wrote:
Battleclinic fits are bad.

Use medium blasters and fly for the win.

(they are hard to fit due to the pitiful CPU of Ishtar, that is all, you will need fitting mods/implants)


Typical Eve forum moron reply.

Guess what, they have a rating system. The good fits tend to be rated pretty high.

And fitting medium blasters on an Ishtar is pretty stupid. Looks like you're the one whose fits suck.


Just because they have some silly +1 rep system does not mean the people posting those fits or the ones rating them know what they are talking about.

But yes, the ishtar has only 3 turrets, low powergrid and cpu coupled with a meagre 5% damage per level to medium hybrid turrets which makes it a waste of time. Only reason to put medium hybrids on an Ishtar is for ratting with some armor tanked setups.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#6 - 2012-01-27 15:47:21 UTC
Dorian Tormak wrote:


Typical Eve forum moron reply.

Guess what, they have a rating system. The good fits tend to be rated pretty high.

And fitting medium blasters on an Ishtar is pretty stupid. Looks like you're the one whose fits suck.


Did I somehow hurt your feelings so much that you need to resort to insults?

The BC rating system and browsing fits by rating causes ratings to accumulate to the most rated fits. Fits with lots of ratings are old. Old in the case of Gallente means dated. Anyone can rate fits. And popularity is never an indicator of objective value of anything.

In a post-Crucible world, fitting blasters on any hybrid bonused hull is anything but stupid. They have best damage and tracking of all turrets. Range with Null is almost equal to ACs. Fitting is much easier than before (you can easily fit ions on the Ishtar), cap usage of medium hybrids is absolutely neglible and ammo switching is fast.

Fit rails if you want, that is a matter of preference and piloting style, but fitting anything but bonused guns on Gallente boats is imho stupid nowadays.

.
Aestivalis Saidrian
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#7 - 2012-01-27 16:04:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Aestivalis Saidrian
To be fair, Autos on a myrm is a better idea then hybrids. Course, it can also be shield tanked epically too. So that might be an indicator of how badly the myrm needs help.
Ravenesa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-01-27 16:37:45 UTC
Aestivalis Saidrian wrote:
To be fair, Autos on a myrm is a better idea then hybrids. Course, it can also be shield tanked epically too. So that might be an indicator of how badly the myrm needs help.


The only love a Myrm needs is more drone bandwidth, it is not a gunship. That being said current Myrms can still spit out over 500DPS and active tank with MWD web and scram without much of a problem. Laser Myrms work nicely hitting the weakest shield resist in most cases.
Mister Kwong
Doomheim
#9 - 2012-01-27 17:03:15 UTC
Roime wrote:
Dorian Tormak wrote:


Typical Eve forum moron reply.

Guess what, they have a rating system. The good fits tend to be rated pretty high.

And fitting medium blasters on an Ishtar is pretty stupid. Looks like you're the one whose fits suck.


Did I somehow hurt your feelings so much that you need to resort to insults?

The BC rating system and browsing fits by rating causes ratings to accumulate to the most rated fits. Fits with lots of ratings are old. Old in the case of Gallente means dated. Anyone can rate fits. And popularity is never an indicator of objective value of anything.

In a post-Crucible world, fitting blasters on any hybrid bonused hull is anything but stupid. They have best damage and tracking of all turrets. Range with Null is almost equal to ACs. Fitting is much easier than before (you can easily fit ions on the Ishtar), cap usage of medium hybrids is absolutely neglible and ammo switching is fast.

Fit rails if you want, that is a matter of preference and piloting style, but fitting anything but bonused guns on Gallente boats is imho stupid nowadays.



To be fair, your initial comments were too simple and generalistic in nature. But these comments offer more context into your reasoning. I do agree that alot of those fittings on BC are dated. It just seems weird that a "heavy assault" ship is using blasters typically reserved for a 'lighter' ship like frigates. That, and the CPU is crappy in order to find a decent Ishtar medium blaster setup. Heck, I'd be better off using a autocannon Munnin and kite. Not to mention the hull value is cheaper as well.

PS- Yes, I'm well aware everyone prefers the sniper Munnin but there's no reason the Auto Munnin can't work in certain situations
Renarla
#10 - 2012-01-27 17:51:56 UTC
Actual reply:

The Ishtar and Vexor do not have enough Powergrid/CPU to properly fit medium hybrids without gimping the entire ship,
shal ri
Short Bus Window Licker
#11 - 2012-01-27 17:53:57 UTC
Aestivalis Saidrian wrote:
To be fair, Autos on a myrm is a better idea then hybrids. Course, it can also be shield tanked epically too. So that might be an indicator of how badly the myrm needs help.



all the myrm needs is more drones its fine other wise. as for the ishtar, i think meb blasters would gimp the tank too much for it to be useful since pvp in low sec is all about gettin in and out fast due to blobs. that kind of fit would just not work the ishtar would pop fast due to weak tank and plus the range limit of blasters means u need to be rather close to apply blaster dps. that puts u in the 'get ganked zone'

a buffer fit ishtar moves at about 1.1k plus about 13k armor. if its rep fit its does a nice bit better on the speed, just let the drones do all the work.
Mister Kwong
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-01-27 20:03:24 UTC
shal ri wrote:
Aestivalis Saidrian wrote:
To be fair, Autos on a myrm is a better idea then hybrids. Course, it can also be shield tanked epically too. So that might be an indicator of how badly the myrm needs help.



all the myrm needs is more drones its fine other wise. as for the ishtar, i think meb blasters would gimp the tank too much for it to be useful since pvp in low sec is all about gettin in and out fast due to blobs. that kind of fit would just not work the ishtar would pop fast due to weak tank and plus the range limit of blasters means u need to be rather close to apply blaster dps. that puts u in the 'get ganked zone'

a buffer fit ishtar moves at about 1.1k plus about 13k armor. if its rep fit its does a nice bit better on the speed, just let the drones do all the work.


Bring along a Falcon, Lach, or Arazu. Situational dependent ofc
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2012-01-28 02:16:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Hungry Eyes
been flying the Ishtar for about 4 years, this is my opinion:


Ishtar is generally nonviable in the current pvp meta.

- AHAC gangs: you cant retrieve your dps if you need to gtfo; if going with heavies instead of sentries, it takes forever to start applying said dps; Deimos is a better AHAC

- medium range gangs: not enough EHP; a properly flown BC can shred an Ishtar

- nano gangs: not enough EHP, and cant apply dps fast enough; Blastos owns this role over any Gallente ship.

- small gang/solo: dual rep tars work only if you have insane resources such as booster alts, pills, multiboxed covops scout, and implants


with 75k EHP, 2km/s speed + heat, and 600 dps (pure explosive or EM), the nano Gila wipes the floor with any Ishtar setup.

to address OP: a blaster Tar would have a little less dps than a Brutix or a properly fit Myrm, and way less EHP. that in itself is enough to make the Tar nonviable. use it in PVE where it belongs until HACs regain their role.



Ravenesa wrote:


The only love a Myrm needs is more drone bandwidth, it is not a gunship. That being said current Myrms can still spit out over 500DPS and active tank with MWD web and scram without much of a problem. Laser Myrms work nicely hitting the weakest shield resist in most cases.


i actually dont care for the drone role. even if it could field 4-5 heavies/sentries. drones suck. 425mm AC's on a shield tanked Myrm with a 2/2/1 drone setup can spit out about 700 near-instant dps (pure explosive or EM) 0-30km, which puts to shame any other Myrm setup.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#14 - 2012-01-28 02:51:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Hungry Eyes wrote:

with 75k EHP, 2km/s speed + heat, and 600 dps (pure explosive or EM), the nano Gila wipes the floor with any Ishtar setup.


IMO the Ishtar is superior because it has better agility (and generally mobility). Also, why is your Ishtar so slow?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#15 - 2012-01-28 03:04:16 UTC
Roime wrote:
Battleclinic fits are bad.

Use medium blasters and fly for the win.

(they are hard to fit due to the pitiful CPU of Ishtar, that is all, you will need fitting mods/implants)




^^^^^ This!
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2012-01-28 03:16:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Hungry Eyes
Liang Nuren wrote:
Hungry Eyes wrote:

with 75k EHP, 2km/s speed + heat, and 600 dps (pure explosive or EM), the nano Gila wipes the floor with any Ishtar setup.


IMO the Ishtar is superior because it has better agility (and generally mobility). Also, why is your Ishtar so slow?

-Liang



who said my Ishtar was slow? it just doesnt have the EHP to be competitive. you should always assume you'll get caught because Cyns, SFI's, Vagas, tier 3's, AF's are all faster. once you're scrammed (or not), your 45k EHP will melt too quickly. this is less than a nano Cane. nano shield Tars get shredded by just about everything. agility makes absolutely no difference when half the ships in the game are significantly faster than you. and without sentry rigs on the Tar, Gila does more dps anyway.

and if youre gonna play with the big boys at close-medium range, you better have at least 60k+ EHP if youre gonna be doing less than 600dps. 60k EHP armor Tars are bricks, and vastly outperformed by the Deimos in the AHAC role.

to give one example, my Gila of 75k EHP was scrammed by a friggy, and neuted by a Typhoon. I was able to stay alive and score top damage on all kills as we melted down the Typhoon, a Cyclone, a Cane, 2 Brutixes, and 1 more Brutix which also popped me in the end. 75k EHP buys you time. oops sorry, with heat on the hardeners, thats 86k EHP
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#17 - 2012-01-28 03:33:08 UTC
It seems to me that the problem is you're trying to fit SDAs and a tank instead of focusing on damage mitigation and avoidance. For instance, you say that the Blastos is great but its mobility is actually worse than the Ishtar while having an inferior tank. Yeah, you're going to lose Ishtars (and Blastos!) to **** like Cynabals and Machs but that's not what you should be engaging - and with a nano ship you will almost always have the choice of what to engage.

You commented earlier about losing drones, but thats always been a problem with drone ships. Sometimes people will shoot them... sometimes you'll leave them behind. Sometimes you can come back and get them... and sometimes you can't. Honestly it sounds to me like you simply don't dig drones... and that's ok.

/shrug

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-01-28 03:50:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Hungry Eyes
but my whole point is you cant project damage with a drone ship. therefore, you dont GET TO choose what to engage. i play my Gila as a brawler and get tons of kills that way because people love it when i commit, and go "oh shi.." when they notice how much EHP ive got. thats because im basically playing a Drake.

for example, the Blastos gets to choose what it engages because it can actually do scary DPS at 30-40km. you cant engage **** in an Ishtar because you cant project dps, and you cant tank; while many ships can actually apply their dps on you when you try to kite them. the truth is, all tier 3's can basically shred you apart as you try to mwd around them. avoidance/mitigation only works when your dps is instant, i.e. you have to do something back, or when you can actually sustain your "mitigation tank."

what you speak of makes sense if your target is scrammed by your buddy, and youre zipping around at a safe distance as your drones chew at the target, and nothing can reach you. these scenarios are just...not a part of my EVE world, and i pvp a lot. in fact, i flew my nano Sentar and Snipetar this way. admittedly, while not completely useless, theyre just highly situational. whereas the Gila is good in just about every sub-BS engagement. tier 3's killed the Sentar. before, i was only afraid of Rokh's and mega pulse Apocs. now everything can tear me a new one at 70-100km.

not trying to be condescending, but if you think that Ishtar > Gila based on some fictitious or highly situational engagement, then you just havent flown them, or havent flown the Gila.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#19 - 2012-01-28 04:05:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
That's my point - the Ishtar can sustain its mitigation tank while simultaneously dealing damage. The real weakness you're going to face is small fast **** coming in at you - but even then you're much less defenseless than the tier 3s you keep going on about. I'm looking back at Amamake Fun II ( http://vimeo.com/35131824 ) and I can't help but think that the Ishtar would have been somewhere between equivalent and superior. Certainly good enough to fly at any rate.

-Liang

Ed: BTW, in response to your Gila > Ishtar assertion: No. The Gila is both slower, less agile, and has fewer lows than the Ishtar. It is therefore worse.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Aridir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2012-01-28 11:32:56 UTC
I don't even fit guns on my Ishtar and I've been flying them since 07. Use T2 sentries and keep a flight or 2 of lights or ECM drones in case you get tackled. Also, people who sign every ******* post they make are pubby morons.
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