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REDACTED, for now: Trade window exploit- how is this a scam?

Author
Ganagati
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-01-27 11:36:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganagati
NOTE: Apparently I was grossly misinformed about how the trade scam worked. I was assured by multiple people (> 8 people) in Jita and on Forums that it involved exploiting lag. A further post down expresses otherwise. Until I see it for myself, I'll leave this thread be and quit bitching about something I probably don't know what I'm talking about. =D Below is the old thread.

Additional Note: Vera pointed out at the bottom of this thread that there was indeed a version of the trade window scam that is an exploit and was bannable back in 2007. Fixed now.

**************************************OLD POST*****************************************************************************
I kept hearing more and more about a particular type of "scam". Being interested in scams, I asked around heard all about the "Trade window" scam. All I can say is... wtf?!

I have no problem with scams. If someone puts up a 200 mil contract for some inane object, shouts "WANT TO BUY" and some fool actually accepts the contract, losing 200 mil and gaining that worthless item- it is their fault. If someone wants to put up 2 or 3 contracts in a row, one of them not being the real deal and some fool goes and buys all 3 in a row, thinking they are identical, and loses out- it is their fault. If someone shouts "Send me your isk and I'll double it!", and they send them isk- it is their fault.

But exploiting a broken game mechanic should never, EVER be considered a scam. That is an exploit- nothing more, nothing less. To sugarcoat CCP's inability to fix even a small networking issue like that by saying "Working as intended" is a joke. I've been trying to wrap my head around how people can consider this a scam, and yet other things in the game are bannable exploits (like the drone POS exploit from a while back). Wtf?! Either making NOTHING bannable and let us have a field day with all the broken mechanics, or actually man up, admit there's a problem with the system, and start banning anyone who exploits it. But don't do half and half and leave the players to wonder just how much of the broken system they can get away with manipulating.

In before "It teaches them that EVE is hard". No, it teaches them that EVE is broken. :-P

tl;dr- announce that no mechanic exploit is a bannable offense and leave us to our own devices. Or start banning for exploiting.
*********************************END OLD POST**********************************************************************************

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DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-01-27 11:41:57 UTC  |  Edited by: DeMichael Crimson
Unfortunately, CCP and broken mechanics is par for the course. Also double standard.

It's like that in everything, including these forums.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#3 - 2012-01-27 11:44:20 UTC
What's broken about it?
Ganagati
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-01-27 11:47:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganagati
Tippia wrote:
What's broken about it?


Will I get banned for explaining an exploit on forums? I probably shouldn't... unless someone corrects me, in which case I'll answer this question more in depth.

But basically exploiting a network flaw to stop a legitimate transaction from trading the money involved. There is no scam, only the system's inability to keep up with the commands of the player sending the money.

It's akin to if I found a way to avoid taking damage in combat, EVER, and someone saying "He's not exploiting. He's just scamming his opponent."

In that respect, logout and docking CANNOT be exploits if this isn't...

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Rel'k Bloodlor
Guldan Age Stories
Federation Front Line
#5 - 2012-01-27 11:47:58 UTC
But they warn you no less than 4 times from day one to the first time you use player to player trade that you should only do it with some one you trust.
Like quick trading with a corpie, not some random in Jita. Yes I do agree its an exploit not a scam, BUT they do tell you its dangerous a few time first, so I can't feel any worse about the victim than I would for some one dieing in low-sec, because they couldn't be bothered to read the pop-ups.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#6 - 2012-01-27 11:50:30 UTC
Ganagati wrote:
But basically exploiting a network flaw to stop a legitimate transaction from trading the money involved. There is no scam, only the system's inability to keep up with the commands of the player sending the money.
If that's what's happening, then it is indeed an exploit and you can report it.

The actual trade window scam does not exploit any network flaws — it just exploits the mark's eagerness to get the trade done without checking what's being traded.
Ganagati
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-01-27 11:51:05 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
But they warn you no less than 4 times from day one to the first time you use player to player trade that you should only do it with some one you trust.
Like quick trading with a corpie, not some random in Jita. Yes I do agree its an exploit not a scam, BUT they do tell you its dangerous a few time first, so I can't feel any worse about the victim than I would for some one dieing in low-sec, because they couldn't be bothered to read the pop-ups.


Because who in their right mind would think that would involve a broken mechanic? >_> If they were to write "Hey guys, the trade system is totally broken to pieces so folks can pretty much just steal your items through the trade window", I'm halfway certain people would pay more attention. :-P

But again, all is fair in love and war if you let me play with my drones with POSs, log out whenever I want and play docking games all night. >_>

.

Ganagati
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-01-27 11:53:49 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ganagati wrote:
But basically exploiting a network flaw to stop a legitimate transaction from trading the money involved. There is no scam, only the system's inability to keep up with the commands of the player sending the money.
If that's what's happening, then it is indeed an exploit and you can report it.

The actual trade window scam does not exploit any network flaws — it just exploits the mark's eagerness to get the trade done without checking what's being traded.


Ahhh, no the one I'm talking about actually involves (from what I understand) a network mechanic. Mind you, I haven't seen it for myself, though I did hear about it from more than 8 different players in both Jita and on these forums. But they could also all be covering the fact that they rightly got duped, in which case I am wrong about the whole thing. =D

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Cebraio
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2012-01-27 11:54:48 UTC
Why start another thread for it? The other one already had some good arguments in it. It also has the explanation why it is not an exploit, but a simple scam.

All the scammed guy had to do is wait a few seconds to see if the value changes, before he accepts.

In short: Exploits are banable offenses - scams are not. If you want to be safe, set up a contract (carefully) for trades with strangers.
Ganagati
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-01-27 11:57:47 UTC
Cebraio wrote:
Why start another thread for it? The other one already had some good arguments in it. It also has the explanation why it is not an exploit, but a simple scam.

All the scammed guy had to do is wait a few seconds to see if the value changes, before he accepts.

In short: Exploits are banable offenses - scams are not. If you want to be safe, set up a contract (carefully) for trades with strangers.


Interesting. If the explanation is the real deal, and assuming the "lag bug" I've been told about numerous times is simply what he described, then it is indeed a valid scam and I take back what I said. I guess I'll look into it more, first.

.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#11 - 2012-01-27 11:59:54 UTC
Ganagati wrote:
Ahhh, no the one I'm talking about actually involves (from what I understand) a network mechanic.
Then it is indeed an exploit that can be reported and reversed.
Disdaine
#12 - 2012-01-27 12:00:36 UTC
Welcome new players. We're going to change a bunch of module names, make the neocom less functional and soon give you some shinier ships for those first couple of hours.

Just be careful of our easily manipulated player to player trade mechanic. Rather than fix it so one can trade safely with another player like most other mmo's on the market and even fps's like tf2, we're going to introduce a new tutorial agent to educate the unwary about the foolishness of trying to utilize this feature.

CCP.

Excellence.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#13 - 2012-01-27 12:04:59 UTC
Disdaine wrote:
Welcome new players. We're going to change a bunch of module names, make the neocom less functional and soon give you some shinier ships for those first couple of hours.

Just be careful of our easily manipulated player to player trade mechanic. Rather than fix it so one can trade safely with another player like most other mmo's on the market and even fps's like tf2, we're going to introduce a new tutorial agent to educate the unwary about the foolishness of trying to utilize this feature.

CCP.

Excellence.
It is entirely safe, if handled safely. The whole scam relies on the mark not paying attention. If you know that you're a person who can't pay attention, there are two more trading options available to you with increasing levels of safety (at the cost of decreasing levels of versatility).
Disdaine
#14 - 2012-01-27 12:07:50 UTC
Tippia wrote:

It is entirely safe, if handled safely


You're funny.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2012-01-27 12:08:36 UTC
Disdaine wrote:
Welcome new players. We're going to change a bunch of module names, make the neocom less functional and soon give you some shinier ships for those first couple of hours.

Just be careful of our easily manipulated player to player trade mechanic. Rather than fix it so one can trade safely with another player like most other mmo's on the market and even fps's like tf2, we're going to introduce a new tutorial agent to educate the unwary about the foolishness of trying to utilize this feature.

CCP.

Excellence.


Your a moron.

If somebody does not double check that the price has changed your a moron. I use the trade menu and have never been scammed since I make sure that what I get is what I pay for and vice versa.

Greed makes people loose isk...

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#16 - 2012-01-27 12:09:32 UTC
Disdaine wrote:
Tippia wrote:

It is entirely safe, if handled safely

You're funny.

I'm also right.
Rel'k Bloodlor
Guldan Age Stories
Federation Front Line
#17 - 2012-01-27 12:13:35 UTC
Disdaine wrote:
Welcome new players. We're going to change a bunch of module names, make the neocom less functional and soon give you some shinier ships for those first couple of hours.

Just be careful of our easily manipulated player to player trade mechanic. Rather than fix it so one can trade safely with another player like most other mmo's on the market and even fps's like tf2, we're going to introduce a new tutorial agent to educate the unwary about the foolishness of trying to utilize this feature.

CCP.

Excellence.



You have 4 ways to move things between players in station, sorry that your to lazy to read the dangers, cost , benifit, and draw back of each be fore listining to the first guy you met tell you to leave your cell phone and panties at home becouse he has some in the van with the candy. Roll

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 

Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-01-27 12:18:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
please read these threads first:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=517991

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=519066

This was a viable scam in 2007 that was indeed based on server-side lag in busy systems.

As what the scammer does today is still pretty much the same as it was in 2007 and as basically no scam target will ever admit to having been impatient/stupid, people try to transfer the experiences they made in Jita five years ago to 2012 - despite the underlying issue having been fixed in May 2007.

tl;dr OP was informed correctly about a problem that was fixed almost five years ago.

.

Ursula LeGuinn
Perkone
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-01-27 13:15:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ursula LeGuinn
Tippia wrote:
The actual trade window scam does not exploit any network flaws — it just exploits the mark's eagerness to get the trade done without checking what's being traded.


From what I'm told (I only use the trade window to trade incidentals with allies or between my own alts), checking what's being traded is not enough. A potential victim must check multiple times in case the scammer pulls a switcheroo while the victim is distracted entering their portion of the exchange.

That's an important distinction. I was in Jita last night and saw someone claiming a negative wallet balance, advertising a Bhaalgorn for sale through trade only. I don't doubt it's a variation of the age-old CNR/Raven scam, and relies primarily on a switcheroo — with a side salad of the mark only half-glancing at the icon before accepting.

Other MMORPGs utilize trade systems in which both parties must first "lock in" what they're going to trade, and only then does an "accept" button become available to them. If anything is switched, the "accept" button grays out.

I support and appreciate the existence of scams in EVE, but the trade window itself has more security holes than a block of Swiss cheese. Being totally impatient and inattentive is not a prerequisite for trade window victimhood.

"The EVE forums are intended to provide a warm, friendly atmosphere for the EVE community." — EVElopedia

Aamrr
#20 - 2012-01-27 13:39:26 UTC
I'm just gonna leave this here...
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