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Highsec Concerns about CSM- no representation? Highsec's fault? Help from CCP?

Author
Jafit McJafitson
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2012-01-27 13:10:26 UTC
Cathy Drall wrote:
CSM democracy is just badly broken.

If 200,000 carebears vote for 20 carebear PvE candidates, they get 10,000 votes each
If 100,000 nulsec players vote for 4 nulsec PvP candidates, those get 25,000 votes each.

How is this outcome and CSM representative for the player population?
Let people vote for ideas, not candidates, to see what the playerbase really wants.

Or do pre-elections like the americans do and have only 2 candidates or parties.


Seeing as how there are 14 CSM seats, your example would mean that there would be 4 nullsec CSM members and 10 Highsec CSM members.

The real problem is that you don't produce candidates and you don't vote.
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#82 - 2012-01-27 14:46:28 UTC
Jafit McJafitson wrote:
Cathy Drall wrote:
CSM democracy is just badly broken.

If 200,000 carebears vote for 20 carebear PvE candidates, they get 10,000 votes each
If 100,000 nulsec players vote for 4 nulsec PvP candidates, those get 25,000 votes each.

How is this outcome and CSM representative for the player population?
Let people vote for ideas, not candidates, to see what the playerbase really wants.

Or do pre-elections like the americans do and have only 2 candidates or parties.


Seeing as how there are 14 CSM seats, your example would mean that there would be 4 nullsec CSM members and 10 Highsec CSM members.

The real problem is that you don't produce candidates and you don't vote.

TEST propaganda

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Di Mulle
#83 - 2012-01-27 16:12:00 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
The problem with CSM is the same problem with any political system. The available representatives are mouth pieces for those with the resources. The resources are in null. And so, that's where the representation comes from and whom they represent.


The one and only final resource needed to be elected is voters. Number of them. Some people try hard to convince that absolute majority live in highsec (and that that imagined majority has a very special interests, which evil minority manages to ignore and stomp on, etc. etc. and further nonsense).

Natural conclusion is then that resources needed to be elected are in a highsec... Something is wrong in some of the pictures, isn't it.
<<Insert some waste of screen space here>>
Di Mulle
#84 - 2012-01-27 16:16:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Di Mulle
Malcanis wrote:
Right at this moment, 3 of my 6 "toons" are in hi-sec systems, 1 is in lo-sec, while the other two are in Venal. Am I a "high sec player"?

If I were a CSM, would you say that I was unable to represent hi-sec players? Or would I be unable to represent 0.0 players?



That is simple question, but the "balanced" (or whatever it is called) elections evangelists will never bother to produce an answer.
<<Insert some waste of screen space here>>
nate555
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#85 - 2012-01-27 16:27:00 UTC
I may live in high sec but when I can I go to low sec to pew pew. Not a whole lot of money in high sec. Incursions over crowded. Missions are my passion
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#86 - 2012-01-27 16:46:40 UTC
ILikeMarkets wrote:


Anyhow, over the past year I've watched level 4s in highsec get nerfed in their drops and locations (many being pushed to lowsec). I've seen PI in highsec get nerfed, mining in highsec get stomped into the ground. And I can't help but wonder- would these changes have taken place if there were more vocal highsec players on the CSM to say "Wait, stop. What are you doing? There are a TON of players who enjoy highsec gameplay and you are basically screwing them over". The changes didn't move anyone into lowsec or 0.0 that weren't already there. All it did was just make them a little more miserable. Honestly, I don't see the point.


101 of why hisec gets nerfs:

1) When its copious ISK faucets are not balanced with its own ISK sinks + low sec sinks + WH sinks + 0.0 sinks.

EvE IS its economy, letting economy rot like in the other MMOs would kill EvE fast.

Apparently CCP keep introducing new features balancing the ISK outflow like they had low sec risk (ships popping and stuff) while they get spammed in hi sec where ISK outflow is minimal at best.
The results? Dr. Ejyo The Economist screams: "Okay, Houston, we've had a problem here" and then the nerf comes.


2) Because not a single MMO allows any significant improvement of players who stay in the starting areas. EvE is actually the most lenient game. Try getting rich in WoW or anywhere else by sitting in the capital town and the surrounding zone. Try doing "heroics" or "raids" in the starter zones. No, you get sh!tty grey drops, crappy minerals, basic instances.
Compare this with L4s, incursions, both give almost top notch to top notch revenue while sitting in the beginner area.


Basically they keep
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#87 - 2012-01-27 17:53:00 UTC
Write in Ron Paul for CSM
Dunbar Hulan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2012-01-27 18:02:50 UTC
I'll step up for hi sec empire players, let me be your voice on the CSM. I think it's time Empire was represented and your voice heard.
Right after being elected , I will push for the following :

1. Docking/ Redocking delay of 15 minutes- As you sit there admiring your Raven Navy issue with officer mods, I think it's unfair that you don't get a chance to use them against another player.So when you get aggro from someone/WT you can show them the mistake they made in taking you on in your officer mod fitted ship.

2. Move level 4 missions to low sec and level 5 missions to NPC null. Empire is way too crowded, you need more room to get these missions done.

3. Make Incursion systems 0.0 systems for the duration of the Incursion. That way you can bring in the heavy stuff to really show Sansha a thing or two.

Who's with me ?

 ** Manchester United - Paul Scholes= Genius**

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#89 - 2012-01-27 18:41:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Actually, to improve your safety, I was about to suggest that CONCORD help take care of the invasions.

If I recall correctly, their biggest police ship is capable of killing an enemy supercarrier in one shot. This will be a shot heard all around Empire. The smaller ships can take care of the rest of the enemy fleet, to ensure that the system is perfectly safe to mine in.

Of course anyone attempting to interfere with CONCORD handling of the clear and present threat would be similarly neutralized.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#90 - 2012-01-27 19:34:21 UTC
Patient 2428190 wrote:
I could go for another repeat of Ankhtehblahblah

That drama was extra entertaining.


Will you vote for the Voice of Reason candidates if we promise to throw sporks? Big smile

Issler Dainze
Voice of Reason Party CSM 7 Caandidate
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2012-01-27 19:36:49 UTC
Nicolo 2012 - Ban NPC Corps
Cyprus Black
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#92 - 2012-01-27 20:45:38 UTC
Many of the nullsec dwellers just assume that everyone in highsec is scared of PvP and avoids it at all costs. This blanket assumption is simply not true. Nullsec dwellers fail to understand that it's not PvP they're avoiding, but rather the unpleasantries that accompany 0.0 and lowsec.

What unpleasantries you ask?
-The "Putting it all on the line" mentality so common in nullsec.
-Non sensible 0.0 sovereignty mechanics.
-Perpetual CTA's.
-Future plans for destructible outposts and the high possibility of super caps rolling in and destroying all your assets.
-Massive blob tactics.
-Constant pirate attacks.
-Lack of a market.
-The feeling of being in danger 23/7/365.
-0.0 alliance leadership and their bad habits of using members as meatshields on a whim.
-The inability for smaller corps and alliances to wedge their way into 0.0 without paying unreasonable renter fees or getting destroyed on day two.
-Poor logistics if any in 0.0.
-Terrible opportunities for industry production or mining. Especially with non stop CTA's.
-Not knowing if you log off one night in nullsec and log back in a few days later with the outpost under new management.
-Nullsec alliances and events are NOT casual player friendly.
-It's just not fun for most players.
-The inability to financially keep up with the constant losses of expensive ships.
-The fact that most players don't have more than 100 million isk and are unable to pay for T2 ships and constant replacements.
-The unwelcoming attitude towards pilots flying T1 ships such as cruisers, destroyers and frigates. We have ships ready and able to PvP, so why are we always turned away unless it's T2?

This question comes up fairly often; "Why go to nullsec?"

Why indeed. Why go to nullsec with all of these drawbacks? The reward? Possibly, if you're able to reap the benefits and there are no conflicts going on (which 90% of the time there is). It's no surprise that Wormhole corps are far more appealing to highsec players than 0.0 because it doesn't have nearly as many drawbacks as nullsec does. Moving to lowsec is pretty much out of the question for highsec players due to the overwhelmingly unbalanced risk vs reward ratio.

Summary of EvEs last four expansions: http://imgur.com/ZL5SM33

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2012-01-27 22:47:44 UTC
Tian Nu wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:


What is the point of seeing 44,000 users logged in at a time if you are keeping your contact with them at the absolute minimum? If you don't engage in the Massive Multi-PLAYER aspect of the game then why not fill the server up with NPCs?


Mayby cos i like to play solo ? Did that cross you mind ? Do you know that i did the whole LFD 2 in hard mode whith only boots as co ops ? Why cos i like chalenge. Why i dont play whith ppl most of times becose once you enter group you become the group. You can engage in solo play but what if i dont want to go on TS cos am lisening to music or don't want to hear you voice at all.

See for you is MMO for me is sinle player game and you try to prevent me from playing it the way i want but is ok i can shoot ppl in the face no bigie sadly some ppl can't why not understend them why ***** at them ?


The game is classified as an MMO, EVERYONE who reviews the game, plays the game, and made the game will acknowledge that the game is indeed an MMO and the purpose of which is to try and interact with other players. I get it, we all like to play solo once in a while, but playing the entire game by yourself when you could play with any number of 44,000 people is just ridiculous. Your better off playing SPORE in the Space Stage because that's essentially what you are doing here.

Plus playing with bots doesn't make a game harder. Enemies are stupid and teammates actually work as a team. With actual people you have to worry about smart enemies and generally ignorant teammates.

Issler Dainze wrote:



A bannana is a fruit , many people eat banannas, many of those people also watch TV. It is clear that TV is intended to make people focus on eating fruit!


That's not what I mean at all. TV is not advertised as a banana related device. What I'm saying is that it would be a bit odd for a company called "Reliable Bananas" yet it's main product are apples. That's how EVE is. It's advertised as a mostly combat game, in fact the only time mining ever shows up in any of the trailers in the Incursion trailer, right before they get blown up by combat ships of course. Wouldn't you be disappointed if you bought a game advertised to be mostly about combat, yet people focus more on mining?

Issler Dainze wrote:

I think your logic falls apart. Eve as stated by CCP is a sandbox where everyone competes. That is a fact and every player lives that in Eve no matter what they do. But to say Eve is combat focused because only 1/3 of the players live in high sec is a stretch. I can make a better case for Eve being a giant ecconomic simulator that is driven by many factors that includes PvP ship combat. CCP hired an economist but has not hired an expert on naval warfare. That might be a hint.


I'm not denying that EVE is a sandbox, however, what do kids mostly do in a sandbox, try to build sand-castles or throw sand at other kids? Most sandboxes I've been in mostly focus on kids building sandcastles while one poo-poo-face covers our heads in said sand. (NOTE: I know EVE isn't a literal sandbox, just a metaphor)

Just because EVE is a sandbox doesn't mean all the activities in EVE have equal priority. Look at all the ships in EVE. Note how the vast majority (somewhere around 80% to 90% not exactly sure) of ships are for direct combat, or something to support combat. Why would CCP possibly put more combat ships than any other ship if their focus wasn't combat? If each role was meant to be played equally, wouldn't it make sense for CCP to put an equal amount of Combat Ships, Industrials, Mining ships, and whatever other niches ships can fill?

Plus, CCP didn't hire a naval combat expert because naval combat takes place on flat 180 degree oceans and seas (for the most part). Spaceship combat takes place in a 360 degree environment. I guess you could argue that CCP should hire an air warfare expert, but there's that whole Zero Gravity and No-Drag thing going on, but I digress.

Quote:
Here is a simple mental exersise you could try. Imagine Eve these ways

1. No markets - Eve would die almost immediately. No motivation to build anything other than to use it yourself to fight. You couldn't support combat for any lenght of time before you were down to noob frigate fleets.

2. No PvP ship combat - Eve would be a different game for sure but with enough PvE combat to pick up the slack and additions of mechanisms to let someone control the resources with some other sort of activity Eve would probably still be a pretty good game and maybe about as healthy as it is now.



1. I never said that markets should be eliminated, I myself rely on Hi-Sec partly because of the markets. I just don't want to see it boosted, i think it's fine now but if any change needs to be made it should be nerfed.

2. Guess what the highest selling game of 2011 was (not counting items included packages), it was Call of Duty Black Ops. Wonder why? It wasn't the single player, it was the multiplayer. From the fun of killing zombies with your friends to the excitement of killing your friends with a wide range of weaponry most of the games success came from it's multiplayer.

Plus you yourself said that hi-sec carebears only make up 1/3rd of the game population. That means that if PVP combat were removed 2/3rds of the game's population would vanish.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Ganagati
Perkone
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-01-27 22:52:24 UTC
Dunbar Hulan wrote:
I'll step up for hi sec empire players, let me be your voice on the CSM. I think it's time Empire was represented and your voice heard.
Right after being elected , I will push for the following :

1. Docking/ Redocking delay of 15 minutes- As you sit there admiring your Raven Navy issue with officer mods, I think it's unfair that you don't get a chance to use them against another player.So when you get aggro from someone/WT you can show them the mistake they made in taking you on in your officer mod fitted ship.

2. Move level 4 missions to low sec and level 5 missions to NPC null. Empire is way too crowded, you need more room to get these missions done.

3. Make Incursion systems 0.0 systems for the duration of the Incursion. That way you can bring in the heavy stuff to really show Sansha a thing or two.

Who's with me ?


lol. I'm relatively sure this was a joke... at least I hope it is, cause the silliness of the entire post and its suggestions has me cracking up. =D

.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#95 - 2012-01-27 22:56:03 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
A bannana is a fruit , many people eat banannas, many of those people also watch TV. It is clear that TV is intended to make people focus on eating fruit!
…except that bananas are berries.
Ganagati
Perkone
Caldari State
#96 - 2012-01-27 23:21:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganagati
Tippia wrote:
…except that bananas are berries.


While you COULD categorize it as a epigynous berry, it isn't a true berry. A banana IS a fruit, that is a fact and there is no doubt about it. Its just that it has an inferior ovary, thus the categorization as an epigynous berry

.

TuonelanOrja
Doomheim
#97 - 2012-01-28 00:04:38 UTC
JC Anderson wrote:
Oh and the queen of spoons did have a fairly polished CSM campaign video too. ;) I could barely understand her though.

http://evajobse.net/TakeCare/movie.php

She's hot.

Not a veteran, just bitter..

Zirse
Risktech Analytics
#98 - 2012-01-28 00:12:19 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
Patient 2428190 wrote:
I could go for another repeat of Ankhtehblahblah

That drama was extra entertaining.


Will you vote for the Voice of Reason candidates if we promise to throw sporks? Big smile

Issler Dainze
Voice of Reason Party CSM 7 Caandidate


If you campaign on throwing cutlery I will vote for you with all my accounts.

This game could use projectile utensils.
Zirse
Risktech Analytics
#99 - 2012-01-28 00:33:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Zirse
Cyprus Black wrote:
Many of the nullsec dwellers just assume that everyone in highsec is scared of PvP and avoids it at all costs. This blanket assumption is simply not true. Nullsec dwellers fail to understand that it's not PvP they're avoiding, but rather the unpleasantries that accompany 0.0 and lowsec.



While I do acknowledge that all sorts of accusations are tossed around by everyone with all of this saber-rattling; allow me to address some of your points because I feel they fall short of the mark


-The "Putting it all on the line" mentality so common in nullsec.

True, you shouldn't be in null/low if you don't want to risk your ship. However, you can lose ships anywhere in space. Even industrialists who never leave high-sec frequently 'put it all on the line' by taking speculative positions in the market.

-Non sensible 0.0 sovereignty mechanics.


Very, very true. No one likes shooting structures.

-Perpetual CTA's.


While this is true in some parts of space it isn't true in others. My advice: shop around a little better and don't settle for less.

-Future plans for destructible outposts and the high possibility of super caps rolling in and destroying all your assets.


Well hopefully it's implemented in an environment that sees a better balance of supers. The idea itself is a good one in terms of adding more risk to a stagnant null, opportunity to meaningfully wage war, and should encourage more space to be utilized as alliances spread their hubs out.

-Massive blob tactics.

Not for everyone, but TiDi has really turned large fleet fights into enjoyable endeavors.

-Constant pirate attacks.


After you've lived in null for maybe a week or two you pretty much know how to travel in a fashion that minimizes the risks. Opportunities for pvp aren't really a negative anyways, you just have to fight back.

-Lack of a market.

Not true, depending on how bad your alliance is. Sure, its not going to beat Jita but JFs make null markets pretty easy to establish.

-The feeling of being in danger 23/7/365.


Again, not true. As long as you fly smart, risk in null can be mitigated.

-0.0 alliance leadership and their bad habits of using members as meatshields on a whim.


[citation needed]

-The inability for smaller corps and alliances to wedge their way into 0.0 without paying unreasonable renter fees or getting destroyed on day two.

NPC nullsec.

-Poor logistics if any in 0.0.


Jump freighters make logistics a walk in the park for anybody in 0.0

-Terrible opportunities for industry production or mining. Especially with non stop CTA's.


Perhaps, but consider this: there's also a lot more demand and a decreased supply for ship hulls and modules. Find a way to exploit that. However on a large scale industry in null needs a buff.

-Not knowing if you log off one night in nullsec and log back in a few days later with the outpost under new management.

The lines don't really change that fast. They can, but rarely without warning.

-Nullsec alliances and events are NOT casual player friendly.


To get good mileage out of null, you can be a casual player as long as you have 'block time' available. ie: you can play 4 hours a week on a Sunday and have lots of fun.

-It's just not fun for most players.


[citation needed]

-The inability to financially keep up with the constant losses of expensive ships.


Incursions, PI, anoms, etc. The isk is there.

-The fact that most players don't have more than 100 million isk and are unable to pay for T2 ships and constant replacements.

See above.

-The unwelcoming attitude towards pilots flying T1 ships such as cruisers, destroyers and frigates. We have ships ready and able to PvP, so why are we always turned away unless it's T2?

[Citation needed]
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2012-01-28 18:20:20 UTC
Cyprus Black wrote:
What unpleasantries you ask?


-The "Putting it all on the line" mentality so common in nullsec.

You do that everytime you undock. How is Highsec any different?

-Non sensible 0.0 sovereignty mechanics.

Okay, you got us on that one, but we don't like it ether.

-Perpetual CTA's.

Only bad alliances/corps do that.

-Future plans for destructible outposts and the high possibility of super caps rolling in and destroying all your assets.

Sounds like you want to have supercapitals ballanced, me too.

-Massive blob tactics.

Until CCP solves the n + 1 > n problem, I don't see that changing, but with TiDi at least more fights will happen.

-Constant pirate attacks.

Get better intel, form fleet and go after them.

-Lack of a market.

With Jumpfreighters setting up a market is easy, sure it isn't Jita, but it is darn close.

-The feeling of being in danger 23/7/365.

It is super easy to set up an inteligence network to warn people of incoming hostiles, you are just bad at EvE.

-0.0 alliance leadership and their bad habits of using members as meatshields on a whim.

Only bad alliances do this.

-The inability for smaller corps and alliances to wedge their way into 0.0 without paying unreasonable renter fees or getting destroyed on day two.

Here is where you have to step into the world of politics and diplomacy. Strike a deal that is mutually agreeable, to both parties and you have a chance.

-Poor logistics if any in 0.0.

One word, Jumpfreighters.

-Terrible opportunities for industry production or mining. Especially with non stop CTA's.

Industry in 0.0 needs to be addressed. With the Drone Regions producing ~70% of all the highends, mining is not worth the effort out in 0.0 space. Only bad alliances, or ones about to die, call CTA's. Leave/not join one that does.

-Not knowing if you log off one night in nullsec and log back in a few days later with the outpost under new management.

(Un)Fortunately the Dominion sov system doesn't work that fast. If you are going to be away for several weeks/months it is best to have most of your stuff shipped out to highsec, that way if you do login to find the station is under new management, you won't have all of your stuff traped.

-Nullsec alliances and events are NOT casual player friendly.

As with anything, time and commitment yeild greater rewards. If nothing is presently going on take initiative and get a group together and go do something.

-It's just not fun for most players.

I find Empire dull, lifeless, and boringly not fun. You have your opinion, I have mine.

-The inability to financially keep up with the constant losses of expensive ships.

There are so many ways to make money.

-The fact that most players don't have more than 100 million isk and are unable to pay for T2 ships and constant replacements.

Lots of ways to make money, plus most good corps/alliances have reimbursment programs, or hull replacement programs for combat losses. Some even will provide free fitted ships to the truly destitute player.

-The unwelcoming attitude towards pilots flying T1 ships such as cruisers, destroyers and frigates. We have ships ready and able to PvP, so why are we always turned away unless it's T2?

Shun any corp/alliance touting the ~1337 PvP~ card. Some of the most fun I've had, has been on T1 frigate roams. Making expesive T2/faction stuff go boom when you are in a cheep disposable (and insurable) ship is stangely satisfying.


This question comes up fairly often; "Why go to nullsec?"

All I've heard has been the regurgitated propaganda from the sour grapes community on why 0.0 "is bad M'kay."

I have to ask you this question in return; "Have you tried looking for a Nulsec corp/alliance that has what you are looking for/to do, or are you just going to take someone elses [biased] word on how 0.0 works, and not try?"

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka