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[Issue] Titans and Tracking.
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Cheekything
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-01-27 00:08:36 UTC
I'm not sure how to explain this but here we go.

XL guns should not be able to hit small ships, I mean seriously I know eve is a game but it doesn't even make sense, citadel torps were nerfed which was good, it made sense and now I see constantly GUN basedTitans hitting smaller and smaller targets.

Example:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12250855

I'm sure someone can bring up an even more lol kill but honestly hitting a scimitar on a good day in a battleship is a problem, hitting one in a 15km ship is just getting stupid.

So here is my proposal add the simple equation if sig radius > ammo hit (new variable and only needed for XL ammo you can think of a better name use it) then you miss.

The ammo hit would need to be a reasonable size big enough to hit a battlecruiser but small enough to miss a cruiser, specailly frigs.

The problem with tracking is that it doesn't really work all that well when it comes to these huge guns as it's chance based but using the poor example of have you ever tried squatting a fly without another surface behind it, it just does not work.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-01-27 00:34:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Drake Draconis
Cheekything wrote:
I'm not sure how to explain this but here we go.

XL guns should not be able to hit small ships, I mean seriously I know eve is a game but it doesn't even make sense, citadel torps were nerfed which was good, it made sense and now I see constantly GUN basedTitans hitting smaller and smaller targets.

Example:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12250855

I'm sure someone can bring up an even more lol kill but honestly hitting a scimitar on a good day in a battleship is a problem, hitting one in a 15km ship is just getting stupid.

So here is my proposal add the simple equation if sig radius > ammo hit (new variable and only needed for XL ammo you can think of a better name use it) then you miss.

The ammo hit would need to be a reasonable size big enough to hit a battlecruiser but small enough to miss a cruiser, specailly frigs.

The problem with tracking is that it doesn't really work all that well when it comes to these huge guns as it's chance based but using the poor example of have you ever tried squatting a fly without another surface behind it, it just does not work.


You obviously have no understanding of remote tracking links and various fleet boosting abilities.

Titans can't shoot sub caps effectively as you claim.....not without assistance that is....someone who even comes close to understanding super cap combat should understand this concept....aparently you do not. Please stop posting requests on concepts you do not understand.


There are discussions about "nerfing" the boosting of such things...but you have to have ships fielded with these mods which takes away the DPS/supportability of hte fleet in some areas...so honestly in my opinion its fairly balanced...but then super blobs make it cheap at that rate.

PS: If he (the titan) wasn't boosted...then its quite possible the ship was standing still due to webbing or other....in that case..he's a dead pilot (the victim).

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Jita Bloodtear
Bloodtear Labs
#3 - 2012-01-27 02:07:50 UTC
Titans do have very strong tracking abilities.

-Since Crucible 1.0 (many weeks ago) they can no longer be remote tracking boosted or remote sensor boosted either.
-There are no fleet ganglinks that improve their tracking abilities.
-There's "Strong Drop Booster" which improves their tracking by 37.5% - which is huge, and probably shouldn't apply to supers
-There's a 5% tracking speed implant "Eifyr and Co. 'Gunslinger' AX-2" which goes in slot 7

As can be seen on that kill, there were no webs used. It's entirely possible the scimatar was just sitting somewhere... but from what I've seen, titans have no problem hitting much. It is only a matter of time before they get nerfed in some form. CCP will not be satisfied until supers cannot defend themselves against subcaps at all.
Romandra
These are not the droids you're looking for
#4 - 2012-01-27 02:16:12 UTC


Drake Draconis wrote:


You obviously have no understanding of remote tracking links and various fleet boosting abilities.

Titans can't shoot sub caps effectively as you claim.....not without assistance that is...


As Jita Bloodtear so expertly posted, Mr Drake Draconis, it turns out, you're the one who is dumb and has no clue about supercapitals.

The shoe, other foot.

Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-01-27 02:33:10 UTC
Romandra wrote:


Drake Draconis wrote:


You obviously have no understanding of remote tracking links and various fleet boosting abilities.

Titans can't shoot sub caps effectively as you claim.....not without assistance that is...


As Jita Bloodtear so expertly posted, Mr Drake Draconis, it turns out, you're the one who is dumb and has no clue about supercapitals.

The shoe, other foot.


lol...I have his posts ignored so I don't see his blathering crap anymore but that is just funny.

To the OP. I think we had a thread similar to this recently. I allowed one of my corpies to pod me out of a WH recently. I was moving...in my pod with him in a Dread. One shot...pop. Really didn't expect that. lol

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-01-27 03:01:25 UTC
Jita Bloodtear wrote:
Titans do have very strong tracking abilities.

-Since Crucible 1.0 (many weeks ago) they can no longer be remote tracking boosted or remote sensor boosted either.
-There are no fleet ganglinks that improve their tracking abilities.
-There's "Strong Drop Booster" which improves their tracking by 37.5% - which is huge, and probably shouldn't apply to supers
-There's a 5% tracking speed implant "Eifyr and Co. 'Gunslinger' AX-2" which goes in slot 7

As can be seen on that kill, there were no webs used. It's entirely possible the scimatar was just sitting somewhere... but from what I've seen, titans have no problem hitting much. It is only a matter of time before they get nerfed in some form. CCP will not be satisfied until supers cannot defend themselves against subcaps at all.






I stand corrected..was unaware of these changes.

However it does not detract from the ignorance reflected in the OP's post.

Titans aren't much good for a whole lot honestly...I dont see justification for nerfing of their weapons platforms...dreadnaughts are worse off to be honest.

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Romandra
These are not the droids you're looking for
#7 - 2012-01-27 03:17:57 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
Jita Bloodtear wrote:
Titans do have very strong tracking abilities.

-Since Crucible 1.0 (many weeks ago) they can no longer be remote tracking boosted or remote sensor boosted either.
-There are no fleet ganglinks that improve their tracking abilities.
-There's "Strong Drop Booster" which improves their tracking by 37.5% - which is huge, and probably shouldn't apply to supers
-There's a 5% tracking speed implant "Eifyr and Co. 'Gunslinger' AX-2" which goes in slot 7

As can be seen on that kill, there were no webs used. It's entirely possible the scimatar was just sitting somewhere... but from what I've seen, titans have no problem hitting much. It is only a matter of time before they get nerfed in some form. CCP will not be satisfied until supers cannot defend themselves against subcaps at all.






I stand corrected..was unaware of these changes.

However it does not detract from the ignorance reflected in the OP's post.

Titans aren't much good for a whole lot honestly...I dont see justification for nerfing of their weapons platforms...dreadnaughts are worse off to be honest.


Stop posting.
Romandra
These are not the droids you're looking for
#8 - 2012-01-27 03:19:28 UTC
Cheekything wrote:
I

Example:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12250855

I'm sure someone can bring up an even more lol kill


https://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/625960

thrasher. killed by titans. thrasher doesn't have an MWD even, so no enormous signature blossom.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-01-27 04:03:04 UTC
Romandra wrote:
Cheekything wrote:
I

Example:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12250855

I'm sure someone can bring up an even more lol kill


https://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/625960

thrasher. killed by titans. thrasher doesn't have an MWD even, so no enormous signature blossom.

That is the most god awefull killboard I have ever seen.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Romandra
These are not the droids you're looking for
#10 - 2012-01-27 04:15:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Romandra
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Romandra wrote:
Cheekything wrote:
I

Example:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12250855

I'm sure someone can bring up an even more lol kill


https://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/625960

thrasher. killed by titans. thrasher doesn't have an MWD even, so no enormous signature blossom.

That is the most god awefull killboard I have ever seen.



hahaha. Solo Drakban is literally hitler and literally bad at killboards. It's terrible but so is losing a thrasher to titan guns.

fake edit: apparently you can't say the former leader's name of germany during world war II in these forums. Churchill would be proud.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-01-27 04:22:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Drake Draconis
Romandra wrote:
Drake Draconis wrote:
Jita Bloodtear wrote:
Titans do have very strong tracking abilities.

-Since Crucible 1.0 (many weeks ago) they can no longer be remote tracking boosted or remote sensor boosted either.
-There are no fleet ganglinks that improve their tracking abilities.
-There's "Strong Drop Booster" which improves their tracking by 37.5% - which is huge, and probably shouldn't apply to supers
-There's a 5% tracking speed implant "Eifyr and Co. 'Gunslinger' AX-2" which goes in slot 7

As can be seen on that kill, there were no webs used. It's entirely possible the scimatar was just sitting somewhere... but from what I've seen, titans have no problem hitting much. It is only a matter of time before they get nerfed in some form. CCP will not be satisfied until supers cannot defend themselves against subcaps at all.






I stand corrected..was unaware of these changes.

However it does not detract from the ignorance reflected in the OP's post.

Titans aren't much good for a whole lot honestly...I dont see justification for nerfing of their weapons platforms...dreadnaughts are worse off to be honest.


Stop posting.


Aw I'm sorry...did I hurt your widdle feelings?

================ STOP THE EVEMAIL SPAM! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=78152
gfldex
#12 - 2012-01-27 05:09:44 UTC
Cheekything wrote:
sig radius


The sig radius of that logistic is not as small as you think it is. If you fix the reason you make Golem pilots very very angry.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#13 - 2012-01-27 05:17:39 UTC
I agree, Titans and super carriers should not be able to fire on sub capital ships.

In the same breath, sub capital weapons should have no effect on Titans or super carriers.

Boost caps!

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Cheekything
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-01-27 10:00:57 UTC
gfldex wrote:
Cheekything wrote:
sig radius


The sig radius of that logistic is not as small as you think it is. If you fix the reason you make Golem pilots very very angry.


You right it's not that small but it's meant to be one the smallest of all the cruisers, honestly I don't see many fleet of dreads shooting cruisers and below mostly because it doesn't make practical sense, which is why I only addressed Titans in the post.


@Drake so you dont see the flaw to titans hitting cruisers and below, I think if you reread my original post you'd notice that I meantioned only that they should not be able to hit things that are cruiser sized and below, not all subcaps.

I believe all caps should be viable against Battlecruiser and Battleship.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#15 - 2012-01-27 10:24:43 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
Jita Bloodtear wrote:
Titans do have very strong tracking abilities.

-Since Crucible 1.0 (many weeks ago) they can no longer be remote tracking boosted or remote sensor boosted either.
-There are no fleet ganglinks that improve their tracking abilities.
-There's "Strong Drop Booster" which improves their tracking by 37.5% - which is huge, and probably shouldn't apply to supers
-There's a 5% tracking speed implant "Eifyr and Co. 'Gunslinger' AX-2" which goes in slot 7

As can be seen on that kill, there were no webs used. It's entirely possible the scimatar was just sitting somewhere... but from what I've seen, titans have no problem hitting much. It is only a matter of time before they get nerfed in some form. CCP will not be satisfied until supers cannot defend themselves against subcaps at all.



I stand corrected..was unaware of these changes.

However it does not detract from the ignorance reflected in the OP's post.

Titans aren't much good for a whole lot honestly...I dont see justification for nerfing of their weapons platforms...dreadnaughts are worse off to be honest.

Show up the the fights VS Raiden. and perhaps you shall see what we are talking about? Surprised you haven't already, since its your new space they are hitting :/

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-01-27 13:49:36 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Drake Draconis wrote:
Jita Bloodtear wrote:
Titans do have very strong tracking abilities.

-Since Crucible 1.0 (many weeks ago) they can no longer be remote tracking boosted or remote sensor boosted either.
-There are no fleet ganglinks that improve their tracking abilities.
-There's "Strong Drop Booster" which improves their tracking by 37.5% - which is huge, and probably shouldn't apply to supers
-There's a 5% tracking speed implant "Eifyr and Co. 'Gunslinger' AX-2" which goes in slot 7

As can be seen on that kill, there were no webs used. It's entirely possible the scimatar was just sitting somewhere... but from what I've seen, titans have no problem hitting much. It is only a matter of time before they get nerfed in some form. CCP will not be satisfied until supers cannot defend themselves against subcaps at all.



I stand corrected..was unaware of these changes.

However it does not detract from the ignorance reflected in the OP's post.

Titans aren't much good for a whole lot honestly...I dont see justification for nerfing of their weapons platforms...dreadnaughts are worse off to be honest.

Show up the the fights VS Raiden. and perhaps you shall see what we are talking about? Surprised you haven't already, since its your new space they are hitting :/

lol...you thought he played EvE? No...he just trolls the forums.

I was playing around with dreads in EFT last night. I was rather shocked with what they look like they can do now. I could see a minimal tank all tracking spec dread clearing the field of smaller ships.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
gfldex
#17 - 2012-01-27 16:48:05 UTC  |  Edited by: gfldex
Cheekything wrote:

gfldex wrote:

The sig radius of that logistic is not as small as you think it is. If you fix the reason you make Golem pilots very very angry.


You right it's not that small but it's meant to be one the smallest of all the cruisers, honestly I don't see many fleet of dreads shooting cruisers and below mostly because it doesn't make practical sense, which is why I only addressed Titans in the post.


What kind of module does the Golem gets a bonus to? Little hind, it's the same module that gets a bonus from Electronic Superiority Gank Links. With maxed skills you get close to 50% sig increase _per_painter_. The logistic in question had the sig radius of a BC and as such was hit as easy then a BC.

It is depressing how few pilots know the game mechanics of a game they play for years.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Romandra
These are not the droids you're looking for
#18 - 2012-01-27 18:06:21 UTC
gfldex wrote:
Cheekything wrote:

gfldex wrote:

The sig radius of that logistic is not as small as you think it is. If you fix the reason you make Golem pilots very very angry.


You right it's not that small but it's meant to be one the smallest of all the cruisers, honestly I don't see many fleet of dreads shooting cruisers and below mostly because it doesn't make practical sense, which is why I only addressed Titans in the post.


What kind of module does the Golem gets a bonus to? Little hind, it's the same module that gets a bonus from Electronic Superiority Gank Links. With maxed skills you get close to 50% sig increase _per_painter_. The logistic in question had the sig radius of a BC and as such was hit as easy then a BC.

It is depressing how few pilots know the game mechanics of a game they play for years.


I show that scimitar as having a signature radius of 60.8m. I'm not sure what battlecruiser you are flying that can do that, but mad props to your l33t devhax ability there, I guess.

That's a signature radius that is incredibly hard to hit for any amount of damage with battleship guns without webbing down the ship to near-zero speed. To be able to hit it for huge hits with dread or titan weaponry without doing the same (which was not the case in this instance) also seems pretty random.

Granted, when you have a blob of 40 titans, it's unpossible to keep transversal up against /all/ of them. Eventually you'll fall down pretty far versus one or two, and you will take hits. I think the op posting point here is that the hits should still be scaled based on your targets signature radius vs the size of your guns.

Perhaps I am mistaken.

gfldex
#19 - 2012-01-27 18:32:20 UTC  |  Edited by: gfldex
Romandra wrote:

I show that scimitar as having a signature radius of 60.8m. I'm not sure what battlecruiser you are flying that can do that, but mad props to your l33t devhax ability there, I guess.

(...)

Perhaps I am mistaken.



You are. Let's have a look at the description of Target Painters.

Quote:

A targeting subsystem that projects an electronic "Tag" on the target thus making it easier to target and Hit.

Penalty: Using more than one type of this module or similar modules that affect the same attribute on the ship will be penalized.


Ohh, look at all those armor tanked Titans, I wonder what they have fitted in their med slots.

I don't need l33t devhax because I understand the turret formula.

Romandra wrote:

That's a signature radius that is incredibly hard to hit for any amount of damage with battleship guns without webbing down the ship to near-zero speed. To be able to hit it for huge hits with dread or titan weaponry without doing the same (which was not the case in this instance) also seems pretty random.


Webbing doesn't matter. If the radial velocity is close to 0 the speed of the target is not taken into account. You can actually add that value to your overview. Very few do. I can only assume they do so because they don't understand that turret formula. And yes, the angular velocity of the titan that is shown on the overview of the logistic is the same then what is shown on side of the Titan. All you have to do is to order the overview by angular or transversal velocity and find the idiot who is not paying attention at the top of your overview. Turrets, quite in contrast to missiles, will do full damage on targets with a angular velocity close to 0 no matter what turret you use. In that case you don't even have to use target painters.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Romandra
These are not the droids you're looking for
#20 - 2012-01-27 19:00:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Romandra
gfldex wrote:

Ohh, look at all those armor tanked Titans, I wonder what they have fitted in their med slots.

I don't need l33t devhax because I understand the turret formula.


Don't need to be a genius, just need to kill one: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12203172
3x tracking computers, strong drop boosters.

They do, however, fit target painters on their nyx: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12250362 but as you can see from the scimi mail, there are no nyx on the scimi mail.

Even with 30 domination painters on a scimi, the sig "blossoms" to 142m, which is still half that of any battlecruiser, even more so if it is a shield tanked battlecruiser.
Romandra wrote:

That's a signature radius that is incredibly hard to hit for any amount of damage with battleship guns without webbing down the ship to near-zero speed. To be able to hit it for huge hits with dread or titan weaponry without doing the same (which was not the case in this instance) also seems pretty random.



gfldex wrote:

Webbing doesn't matter.


I guess you have never participated in an alphafleet, or a tengu fleet, or a drake fleet fighting armor hacs.

I do understand your point about radial velocity but again, I believe that still strongly relates to the ops posting - XL guns on dreads and titans hitting for max damage on such incredibly small, moving objects seems quite silly.
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