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General Poll: Would you prefer omniscient Local Chat, or an actual Intel Tool?
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1 - 2012-01-26 17:29:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Do you prefer the omniscient, instantaneous Local Chat we have now?
[ 12 For Keep Local ]

or

Would you prefer a more balanced intel system?
[ 29 Replace Local with an Intel Tool ]

By balanced, I mean a system that:


  • A.) Alerts you quickly (not necessarily instantly) to the presence of all potential threats in space.
  • B.) Leaves some ambiguity as to whether a potential threat is a friend or foe until you get intel on it.
  • C.) Doesn't nerf the cloak out of play, nor boost it into the God of Hunting.


This F&I thread is my idea of a more balanced intel system. That's not the point of this thread though. I'm really just curious whether people think "local is fine as is", or if they want something different assuming a balance between predator and prey, cloakies, and the intelligence gathering mechanics can be achieved.
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#2 - 2012-01-26 17:36:57 UTC
fine the way it is

the only way delayed local would work is if its a 2 way street, IE: you can't see them and they cant see you, then everyone sees you and you see them... sounds fairly useless.

it seems to me that any discussion of a local nerf is, in the end, to the benefit a certain party at the expense of another.
the only way its fair is for the effect to be universal, and then its reduced to a useless change that is for change's sake
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#3 - 2012-01-26 17:39:32 UTC
Intel tool (minus point A — it shouldn't alert you at all, but rather give you data to analyse so you can alert yourself).
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#4 - 2012-01-26 17:49:36 UTC
Morganta wrote:
fine the way it is

the only way delayed local would work is if its a 2 way street, IE: you can't see them and they cant see you, then everyone sees you and you see them... sounds fairly useless.

it seems to me that any discussion of a local nerf is, in the end, to the benefit a certain party at the expense of another.
the only way its fair is for the effect to be universal, and then its reduced to a useless change that is for change's sake


I agree that from a basic level, the intel tool should be a 2-way street. The system should NOT give an innate advantage to the person entering system or to the person already in system.

However, I disagree with the notion that a universal change would be a "useless change that is for change's sake". A change that adds ambiguity to the new ship in space, where you don't always instantly know if they are friend or foe, returns some mystery, anticipation, and even increased surprise to the game. It could also significantly boost the roles and importance of scouts. With the right changes, you could enhance, or even add new dimensions to the game.
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#5 - 2012-01-26 17:58:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Morganta
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Morganta wrote:
fine the way it is

the only way delayed local would work is if its a 2 way street, IE: you can't see them and they cant see you, then everyone sees you and you see them... sounds fairly useless.

it seems to me that any discussion of a local nerf is, in the end, to the benefit a certain party at the expense of another.
the only way its fair is for the effect to be universal, and then its reduced to a useless change that is for change's sake


I agree that from a basic level, the intel tool should be a 2-way street. The system should NOT give an innate advantage to the person entering system or to the person already in system.

However, I disagree with the notion that a universal change would be a "useless change that is for change's sake". A change that adds ambiguity to the new ship in space, where you don't always instantly know if they are friend or foe, returns some mystery, anticipation, and even increased surprise to the game. It could also significantly boost the roles and importance of scouts. With the right changes, you could enhance, or even add new dimensions to the game.


but it will always favor the fleet that will shoot at anything and all new neuts will be treated as reds, MRs will align and spam dscan, miners will dockup because they know that by the time they determine if the new gang is a threat they could already be landing next to them.

the fleet that shoots anything enters system and knows who is there, they don't care what you are, they warp to the most likely belt or hit several belts and have their choice of targets and a clear advantage upon system entry.

the end result is people will still react to a new neut as they do now, so the change changes nothing in the end.

I like the idea of more fog of war, but again it has to be fair for all involved or its just more fail
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#6 - 2012-01-26 18:01:34 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Intel tool (minus point A — it shouldn't alert you at all, but rather give you data to analyse so you can alert yourself).


I'm curious as to what level of automation is acceptable to you?

Zero automation, where you want to see spamming a dscan-like intel utility?
Partial automation, where it auto-scans the intel utility at periodic intervals (be it every 5s or 50s or some less random number that is tested and tweaked for balance)

I consider local as it is a form of full automation...
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
#7 - 2012-01-26 18:06:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Diomedes Calypso
I prefer the current system for the social aspects of it.

I would like to see more signal to noise thrown in with random ghost ships (untargeable, invisible to all but local) roaming through space using names of innactive players.

That would make people look at names harder and require scanning to know the real story on a short term basisi.

edit

When I mean "social" I don't mean necessarily chatting but the concept of seeing your neighbors on the street or the same faces at your supermarket even when you don't necessarily say hi until you've seen them dozens or hundreds of times if ever.

Seeing people is social interaction

.
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#8 - 2012-01-26 18:12:29 UTC
I'd prefer a filterable Local chat. As in don't show blues.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Bane Loppknow
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-01-26 18:17:46 UTC
I'd like to see an overhaul of the entire dscan/local systems. Automate the dscan somewhat, have it show you any (uncloaked) ships/probes nearby at all times, so you dont need to be constantly clicking (CCP has already established that more clicks != better gameplay). Make local delayed, like in wh space. maybe increase the range of the dscan. Allow sov structure/upgrades that would detect incoming ships and flag them, so that the pilot shows up in local even if he hasn't talked. Would need a short delay to allow cloakies time to recloak, but not long.
Rion Deteisan
Forged Prophets
#10 - 2012-01-26 18:28:40 UTC
The only way that no local chat would work is if there was no warpable beacons from the overview.. All space would have to be like wh space. You need to probe / scan for it. Probes on your scanner would be an indicator for your little mining op to gtfo. (if youre paying attention)

[Side note]: I think asteroid belts should be one continuous ring around the sun.

.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#11 - 2012-01-26 18:31:15 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Do you prefer the omniscient, instantaneous Local Chat we have now?

or

Would you prefer a more balanced intel system?

By balanced, I mean a system that:


  • A.) Alerts you quickly (not necessarily instantly) to the presence of all potential threats in space.
  • B.) Leaves some ambiguity as to whether a potential threat is a friend or foe until you get intel on it.
  • C.) Doesn't nerf the cloak out of play, nor boost it into the God of Hunting.


This F&I thread is my idea of a more balanced intel system. That's not the point of this thread though. I'm really just curious whether people think "local is fine as is", or if they want something different assuming a balance between predator and prey, cloakies, and the intelligence gathering mechanics can be achieved.


Local is not fine as is, nor are a whole gallery of "free intel" tools. It only really makes sense in hisec, where all gates are monitored constantly. Your suggestions for an intel system are good, but I am not very enthusiastic about automation for intel.

Perhaps if the intel resulting from the automated request was something like a system-wide mass sensor, which could only say "the system's mass increased/decreased a couple seconds ago!" That gives you the info you need to set you wondering what changed about your system.

Local, killmails, API abuse... there is way too much free intel in Eve. They all need looking at.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#12 - 2012-01-26 18:32:55 UTC
Morganta wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Morganta wrote:
fine the way it is

the only way delayed local would work is if its a 2 way street, IE: you can't see them and they cant see you, then everyone sees you and you see them... sounds fairly useless.

it seems to me that any discussion of a local nerf is, in the end, to the benefit a certain party at the expense of another.
the only way its fair is for the effect to be universal, and then its reduced to a useless change that is for change's sake


I agree that from a basic level, the intel tool should be a 2-way street. The system should NOT give an innate advantage to the person entering system or to the person already in system.

However, I disagree with the notion that a universal change would be a "useless change that is for change's sake". A change that adds ambiguity to the new ship in space, where you don't always instantly know if they are friend or foe, returns some mystery, anticipation, and even increased surprise to the game. It could also significantly boost the roles and importance of scouts. With the right changes, you could enhance, or even add new dimensions to the game.


but it will always favor the fleet that will shoot at anything and all new neuts will be treated as reds, MRs will align and spam dscan, miners will dockup because they know that by the time they determine if the new gang is a threat they could already be landing next to them.

the fleet that shoots anything enters system and knows who is there, they don't care what you are, they warp to the most likely belt or hit several belts and have their choice of targets and a clear advantage upon system entry.

the end result is people will still react to a new neut as they do now, so the change changes nothing in the end.

I like the idea of more fog of war, but again it has to be fair for all involved or its just more fail


I'll admit my viewpoint is skewed because I primarily live in Nullsec. I want to disagree with your sentiment, but find on a fundamental level your notion of, hunter's will still hunt, and the prey will still "get safe" is true. But that shouldn't change.

The primary change with a balanced fog of war, would be the ease, and hence value, of intel. For the most part, hunter's will continue to only catch the less vigilant prey, yet they will be more susceptible to traps. And this goes both ways...

Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2012-01-26 18:34:50 UTC
i would like a WH local mechanic, along with an intel tool that would allow you to determine who and how many are in the system (with some skill).
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#14 - 2012-01-26 18:45:36 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:


Local is not fine as is, nor are a whole gallery of "free intel" tools. It only really makes sense in hisec, where all gates are monitored constantly. Your suggestions for an intel system are good, but I am not very enthusiastic about automation for intel.

Perhaps if the intel resulting from the automated request was something like a system-wide mass sensor, which could only say "the system's mass increased/decreased a couple seconds ago!" That gives you the info you need to set you wondering what changed about your system.

Local, killmails, API abuse... there is way too much free intel in Eve. They all need looking at.


I think some level of automation in the intel system is necessary. As Bane pointed out,
Quote:
CCP has already established that more clicks != better gameplay!


I think the real need is to balance the automation with player activity. In other words, actively using tools to gain intel should provide more than automated/passive tools, but some automation to limit the banal button clicking is appropriate.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#15 - 2012-01-26 18:58:44 UTC
Diomedes Calypso wrote:
I prefer the current system for the social aspects of it.

I would like to see more signal to noise thrown in with random ghost ships (untargeable, invisible to all but local) roaming through space using names of innactive players.

That would make people look at names harder and require scanning to know the real story on a short term basisi.

edit

When I mean "social" I don't mean necessarily chatting but the concept of seeing your neighbors on the street or the same faces at your supermarket even when you don't necessarily say hi until you've seen them dozens or hundreds of times if ever.

Seeing people is social interaction


Local does provide an undeniable social attribute, and creating a "fog of War" will definitely limit that aspect.

Additionally, I think having a tool to chat to the locals is important.... However, I would prefer it separated from the intel system.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#16 - 2012-01-26 19:15:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Quote:
I think some level of automation in the intel system is necessary. As Bane pointed out,
Quote:
CCP has already established that more clicks != better gameplay!


That's a good point, but fewer clicks can also turn into "easy mode". The automated/passive intel should prompt investigation in all cases. The response to passive intel shouldn't be "oop, I need to safe up now".

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2012-01-26 19:31:21 UTC
Local.

I like to chat with people.
Alaric Faelen
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-01-26 19:51:53 UTC
there is nothing to fix. There is everything you need for intel already available except for the 'warning that keeps me from ever dying' klaxon.
Your star map contains a plethora of valuable intel before you ever undock. Outside of worm holes you have a local chat, a D-Scan, tactical overlays, corp and alliance chat for most pilots, out of game resources, DOTLAN, people on the forums always give away information you can use.
You can apply custom standings to anyone, they appear on screen when they log in. You can create safes, there is an entire mechanic for being aligned to warp out quickly if need be.

Half the game world is high sec with uber NPC cops.

Not sure just how much more protecting anyone needs in a game that has ships with guns as it's core gameplay.

Zirse
Risktech Analytics
#19 - 2012-01-26 20:06:03 UTC
Intel tool.

I think the instant availability of local needs to be scaled down but there still needs to be a way to facilitate combat.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-01-26 20:11:42 UTC
Local channel should be like the local channel in unknown space, so players can still openly communicate with others in the solar system.

-AND-

The directional scanner should be completely revamped. The new scanner should provide information based on the players skill level, ship flying and above all; effort put into gathering and processing the information!
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