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Is Gallente up to par?

Author
Khrage
#21 - 2012-01-26 01:04:35 UTC
'Going Green List' - the list of the ships that make Gallente, as you say, "up to par," PvP wise.

Talos
Myrm
Domi (+navy)
Mega (+navy)
Thanny
Nyx
Moros
Deimos
Ishtar
Phobos
Lach
Araz
Proteus (+it's many forms)
Vexor (+navy)
Thorax
Catalyst
Enyo
Ishkur
Taranis
Velator (best noobship... lol)
and 9 pirate faction ship that use their skills (Worm, Gila, Rattler, Dram, Cyn, Mach, DD, Vig, and Vindi)
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#22 - 2012-01-26 01:09:53 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
Now top 20 numbers mean something.


Yes, it reflects popularity and blobs... which doesn't necessarily mean anything to me.

-Liang



Yes but you are not either the representation of the average player, right?
So why should you count more than someone else? Blink

Was just an opinion heh Bear
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#23 - 2012-01-26 01:28:38 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
Now top 20 numbers mean something.


Yes, it reflects popularity and blobs... which doesn't necessarily mean anything to me.

-Liang



Yes but you are not either the representation of the average player, right?
So why should you count more than someone else? Blink

Was just an opinion heh Bear


In 2012, a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they probably did commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Amamake underground. Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, if you can find their Orca, and if they don't shoot you in the face first.... maybe you can hire the Heretic Army... (cue music)
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-01-26 01:28:51 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
armor is viable when you start measuring how much outnumber your enemy by in multiples.

-Liang



Reasonable enough.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#25 - 2012-01-26 02:03:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
Now top 20 numbers mean something.


Yes, it reflects popularity and blobs... which doesn't necessarily mean anything to me.

-Liang



Yes but you are not either the representation of the average player, right?
So why should you count more than someone else? Blink

Was just an opinion heh Bear


In 2012, a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they probably did commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Amamake underground. Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, if you can find their Orca, and if they don't shoot you in the face first.... maybe you can hire the Heretic Army... (cue music)


I was just thinking about take a good brandy and a smoke when I read your stuff. No need any more Lol

And who need mercs when you have thousands of ants? -I'll just paint a target on that orca and you'll see how long it will take before it becomes a simple wreck Lol
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2012-01-26 03:16:09 UTC
mega - great after null buff, rails decent too
deimos - solid AHAC now, still outshined by zealot
talos - probably the best tier 3 bc
myrm - always was awesome, but hybrids didnt make it so; 425mm's + shield tank make it deadly
ishkur - just cuz

the rest are subpar compared to their counterparts from other races.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-01-26 06:45:05 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
mega - great after null buff, rails decent too
deimos - solid AHAC now, still outshined by zealot
talos - probably the best tier 3 bc
myrm - always was awesome, but hybrids didnt make it so; 425mm's + shield tank make it deadly
ishkur - just cuz

the rest are subpar compared to their counterparts from other races.


Needs moar:
Thorax
Vexor
Dominix

And the nano 250mm rail brutix is growing on me for a fleet ship. It still suffers from fitting issues, but as a pilot who prefers to fly 'pure' gallente, I have been sneaking it into nano fleets when the FC isnt picky, and it has performed well. It has lower alpha than a cane of course, but the DPS is the same at 60k, it has slightly better tracking, it has a higher native lock range, and the 5 second ammo swap allows for the use of multiple ammo types during battle. Oh, and Javelin kicks ass. I think if the Brutix gets a fitting/slot tweak during the T1 BC review, its going to be a nice gunboat.

I havent tried the blaster version with the new null yet, but I am looking forward to it.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!

Party Lips
Calamitous-Intent
#28 - 2012-01-26 07:18:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Party Lips
it's pretty even these days except armor can't act like a pure nano gang. however armor in my opinion has the advantage in a prolonged engagment. in the end it comes down to the individual pilots and the FCs.

gallente ships are very good but takes allot more sp to get good use out of them then the other races.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#29 - 2012-01-26 12:19:03 UTC
The bigger hulls are still terrible for point blank solo/small gang pvp, but I guess this will never change for the better again, at least as long people think they should be just like minmtar. Ugh

The null buff, while sufficient enough to push blasters to medium range, was pretty pointless since it only helps shield setups and a change to rails would have been more useful to tweak them into useful fleet ships.






Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#30 - 2012-01-26 12:28:18 UTC
The Djego wrote:
The bigger hulls are still terrible for point blank solo/small gang pvp, but I guess this will never change for the better again, at least as long people think they should be just like minmtar. Ugh

The null buff, while sufficient enough to push blasters to medium range, was pretty pointless since it only helps shield setups and a change to rails would have been more useful to tweak them into useful fleet ships.



Well actually Null buff helped med hulls by a lot, now instead of just look yourself being kited to dead, a very slow death, now yoy can just think about fit on your Deimos TE's in the first place then swap to null and still do decent dmg at max regular disrupt range (30km) witch is exactly what blaster ships needed to impose to opponents "you either have the balls to engage or just go play with your sand castle somewhere else"

Rails: well the Munin can still alpha a lot of stuff Deimos will take ages to kill, yes they are better but from then say they're good and valid option versus arty it's clearly noes and let's not even compare it with the all mighty Zealot.
Maybe around 2015 when hybrids rebalance will be finished and ships bonus will be reworked the rails Deimos will be interesting.
Noisrevbus
#31 - 2012-01-26 13:10:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
To ignore the continued the discussion and adress the OP:

Gallente always were viable, though changing trend is difficult, and they had issues with scaling that still exist.

If you look at the tweaks they needed which were debated over the past year or so, they have recieved the majority of them and then some. The fitting change was needed, the ammo overhaul was definately useful (i should be honest and admit that i haven't looked well enough into the Null changes yet to give it an honest evaluation) and the drone-mechanics changes that has come are all quite positive. Then you've got the speed changes and all other goodies piled on top (which is pretty much the result of every argument being given a bit of attention, stacking things in favour).

It doesn't change the fact though that for most typical large-scale engagement they still use drones, overshoot and undershoot. It also doesn't change the fact that when all these changes were introduced, they were introduced alongside other changes that countered them, and changed the paradigm of engagement. It's once again my constant peeve of the Tier 3 BC, but it needs to be understood that mobile, ex-oriented high- reach and alpha is the direct counter to mobile, fair tanked, ex-weak rush. Thus it's pretty surprising to find those changes, cancelling out each other in the same patch.

That still doesn't mean Gallente as a race need to be made better. Most of their real mechanical issues have been adressed - what remain is trend, profileration of counter and some application issues here and there (there's ample room for further changes to drone mechanics and interface; even if recent changes have been overwhelmingly positive). PL already seem to be dusting off the old CH ahac concept.

Still, what work today is what always worked: rush concepts have been improved (but counter-balanced by alpha profileration), armor-drone concepts have been buffed (but counter-balanced by bomber profileration) and the general application of high-level toys (BS-XL blasters, hot-drop oriented gameplay) have been improved. All of it was viable before Crucible, all of it got made better with Crucible - but at the same time the game changed so the things you'd counter with them are less popular and the things that counter you, they are more popular. Thus, it's pretty funny that people continue to argue for changes to the Drake - proposed changes that take from Gallente and give to Minmatar core-concept ideals.

PS.
To end on that note about Drakes (i'm overlapping threads here on ships & modules quite a bit now), the funny thing is that the proposed changes would re-counter Tier 3 BC. Obviously nothing i would cry buckets of tears over myself, but it goes inline with the same criticism i gave the Crucible patch. You reintroduce opposing rebalance to the very things you just set out to balance. That really make no sense, and in the end you'd likely achieve a nerf of the Talos, Naga and Oracle more than you'd affect the Tornado with those changes, as they rely more on reach-mobility sustenance. BS-alpha already counter Drakes quite well, while the other exploit sustained damage and control to sustained buffer. Queue the Winmatar tinfoilists.

So the proposed changes would take sustained buffer and give control, which means the countering-concepts would lose control to sustain damage and thus lose part of their application - while we get yet another concept that engage in the 100km kite-snipe environment and is weak to alpha
... and some people were worried that buffing Null range would streamline the game, lol.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2012-01-26 16:05:34 UTC
Hrett wrote:
Hungry Eyes wrote:
mega - great after null buff, rails decent too
deimos - solid AHAC now, still outshined by zealot
talos - probably the best tier 3 bc
myrm - always was awesome, but hybrids didnt make it so; 425mm's + shield tank make it deadly
ishkur - just cuz

the rest are subpar compared to their counterparts from other races.


Needs moar:
Thorax
Vexor
Dominix

And the nano 250mm rail brutix is growing on me for a fleet ship. It still suffers from fitting issues, but as a pilot who prefers to fly 'pure' gallente, I have been sneaking it into nano fleets when the FC isnt picky, and it has performed well. It has lower alpha than a cane of course, but the DPS is the same at 60k, it has slightly better tracking, it has a higher native lock range, and the 5 second ammo swap allows for the use of multiple ammo types during battle. Oh, and Javelin kicks ass. I think if the Brutix gets a fitting/slot tweak during the T1 BC review, its going to be a nice gunboat.

I havent tried the blaster version with the new null yet, but I am looking forward to it.



i did miss the domi, but overall, the mega is much more effective because it relies less on drones. vexor and thorax are about the same, except a little faster.

re: blaster brutix. i melted 3 the other day in my nano gila, at the same time. blaster boats are still blaster boats. highly situational, and slow (talos being the exception). rail brutix, well you said it yourself: still outshined by the cane (and drake). no real reason to fly one, unless you cant fly anything else.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2012-01-26 16:07:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Hungry Eyes
Noisrevbus wrote:
To ignore the continued the discussion and adress the OP:

Gallente always were viable, though changing trend is difficult, and they had issues with scaling that still exist.

.



gallente were always situational, and now theyre less situational and actually have a few viable boats (mostly Talos, Ishkur and Mega). with most Gallente boats, other races still do it better. this is why im hoping medium rails will get some more love, to make Deimos competitive with the Zealot.
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-01-26 17:14:30 UTC
Hybrid buff failed. Their usage goes back already to pre-crucible standards, after they have been tested for 2-3 months.
Simply because they have not been fixed, the issues why they were broken were never adressed.

Reload speed from 10s to 5s? WTF? Why would you want that for blasters? For changing damage types that are all the same? For the different ranges... this is a short-range weapon, therefore the difference between long-range and short-range ammo are something like10km for large guns, too little to bother with ammo changes because of range. Because you shoot more than a magazine at a target to destroy it? Hardly, fights are generally over fast, and since blasters need to travel between targets before resume shooting, they have enough time for a 10 second reload. When facing a tank where you really use up your magazine, you are facing a tank where a difference of 5 seconds doesn´t really matter.
Nobody in eve has ever flown a blasterboat and thought: "you know the problem with blasters? 10 seconds reload time, this is why they suck! they would rule so much with just 5 seconds, but like this they are broken."
Reload time was never an issue with hybrids, do the devs use a random generator to decide what to change or something?
A completely useless change.

The tracking buff? Wow, now i can hit my targets within my optimal, i would have thought one could take that for granted instead of treating it like some special favor. The abysmal low damage with average flying has become much more, cool.
This is no useless buff, however, this much should have been taken for granted. Yet this was not the point where blasters were broken, with fancy flying to keep your transversal low you achieved the same results before crucible (it was no accident when i said low damage with average flying), this is why many pilots (who can fly) were saying blasters are fine, i get much dps out of it.

Speed and agility buff: 10 m/s, the speed of a running man when talking about ranges of at least dozens if not hundreds of kilometers and a fraction of a second less alignment time. Well... whats the point?

Null buff: nice and all, but you are aware that null gives you only average damage? You won´t out-dps the other guys anymore (well, slightly on paper, will not make that much of a difference) also you can´t utilize your now superior tracking as an advantage. Well, i guess it´s nice to have that option, but essentially you try to make blasters the ******** and less capable copy of ACs, you better use those if you intend to fly with null all the time.

Fitting issues: Cool, you can now fit the guns on the ships they are supposed to be fitted onto, something that should also be considered taken as granted.




Blasters were and still are broken because:
You need to get into range in time!
This was always and still is the problem with blasters. Against Minmatar you won´t even get in range at any point, against the others not in time (sure you will get into range eventually against Amarr, but he needs to delay that just for two minutes at max, after that time -mostly even less- of being fired at you are dead or nearly dead).
In time means: both you and your target needs to be in good health. You of course because you are either already dead or can´t win the fight otherwise, your target because you basically didn´t participate in the fight otherwise (maybe aside from a bit KM-whoring), you might as well not have logged in, you were that useful.

Right now you have to rely on your opponent to screw up to be able to participate in a fight and win or you need several ships for support to make up for your weaknesses, which means gimping your gang to make blasters work. And all bigger engagements are off-limits. There is no way to make them work there.
This is more of an issue for the ships, however, not for the guns themselves, if you don´t want to work with weapon range.

This -which is the most important issue of blasters- was never adressed up to now. And this is the crucial point to make blasters viable.

Then of course the damage types: you can basically only engage T1 ships with omnitank or you have a big problem. Not really as crucial as the point above, but still rather pathetic and should be adressed.

Then there is cap. This has been reduced, but in any bigger engagement you are in nos/neut-range of several, including bigger, ships. Meaning if you field more nos/neuts, you can effectively keep blasters from being used in any environment where they are not facing even odds. Also Gallente are supposed to use active armor tank. Right now not viable outside of pve (yeah, there´s the myrm, but that is one ship out of how many? Also droneboat usually equipped with projectiles, so nothing you can replicate easily for other Gallente ships). But it was mentioned by the devs that this is undergoing revisement to makie it viable. If that is happening, Gallente are supposed to keep tank, prop, tackle and weapons running. There is cap management, but this ridiculous. From this angle hybrids should lose their need of cap as well.



As you can see, the issues with blasters don´t have been adressed at all, tracking and fitting was important, but not the reason why blasters are hardly used, rails... eve has rails? This still haven´t changed as well, or is there a reason to use them over projectiles or even beams. Too little damage, cap and ammo and unfortunate damage types are a problem. However, how to change them without making them like crappy beams or arties...

TL;DR: i have pointed out the worth or lack thereof of the changes so far. Also i have addressed what are the issues why blasters aren´t popular and therefore where changes should have happened instead of what we got. Also ritalin, therapy and learning to read are your friends if a long post is that scary to you.

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.

Khrage
#35 - 2012-01-26 17:34:29 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
Noisrevbus wrote:
To ignore the continued the discussion and adress the OP:

Gallente always were viable, though changing trend is difficult, and they had issues with scaling that still exist.

.



gallente were always situational, and now theyre less situational and actually have a few viable boats (mostly Talos, Ishkur and Mega). with most Gallente boats, other races still do it better. this is why im hoping medium rails will get some more love, to make Deimos competitive with the Zealot.


and almost every ship is situational... and ships that do 'everything too well' (drake for example) get nerfed. there are a select few ships that are completely better than another in every regard. standing by my first post in the thread, 'going green list,' gallente has plenty of ships that are 'up to par' and are the best in some situations, just like every other race.

deimos is meant for blasters/ and the reason why it gets such a bad rep is because it is such a big threat it gets primaried all the time. and i've read a few things that number crunch, test, and what not and say the nano deimos is better than the vaga in every way other than range and speed. so obviously there are situations when the vaga is better and situations when the deimos is and situations when the zealot is better, etc etc etc.

they are up to par, stop with the QQ threads.
Kessiaan
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-01-26 17:37:45 UTC
As a fully trained Gallente subcap pilot (all ships + all guns) I'm well aware of the limitations of the races ships when taken as whole.

To me, the real issue with Gallente that's never been truly addressed is that most of the ships scale very poorly with gang size.

Blaster ships in general are awesome solo boats once you learn how to warp in at zero (or quickly burn to zero before they can get up to speed themselves) and avoid the camps. Once you get up to a gang of more than two or three though, blaster ships spend most of their time out of range of the targets and effective DPS drops off dramatically. Don't even bother in a midsize (10ish) gang, bring an AC boat instead. ACs are great in small roaming gangs because their huge falloff gives them a much larger engagement envelope while still retaining the increased DPS associated with close-range weapon systems. Plus minmatar ships in general are much faster and can get to range or GTFO much easier than most gal. ships.

Drone ships aren't very useful in lowsec because sentries pop the drones, and out in nullsec their dependance on drones just kills their mobility. If you're fighting a blob and don't want to die, you need to be aligned all the time to spread out the blob so they can't apply all their DPS or tackle, and so you can warp around or warp out as needed. I lose or leave behind my drones in almost every fight where we're moving around a lot, and a ship like the Myrm or Vexor is hugely dependent on its drones.

Rails that aren't 425s aren't terribly good either. A 720mm artycane has the tracking and alpha to volley a frigate if you're minimizing transversal, and several of them will take down a Drake pretty quickly as well just through pure alpha damage. Spike is the worst of arties and beams - poor tracking, poor alpha, OK-ish DPS but alpha is generally more important in these kinds of setups. A Talos with 425 rails is an excellent sniper, but this ship is the exception, not the rule.

The Lach and Arazu are both great utility ships, and tbh the gal. ships I fly the most often these days.

Gal. hacs aren't very fleet-friendly for the reasons I already outlined. I use my Ishtar for ratting and haven't undocked my Deimos in weeks - my vaga is just better in every respect except applied DPS at 0.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2012-01-26 18:08:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Hungry Eyes
Khrage wrote:
Hungry Eyes wrote:
Noisrevbus wrote:
To ignore the continued the discussion and adress the OP:

Gallente always were viable, though changing trend is difficult, and they had issues with scaling that still exist.

.



gallente were always situational, and now theyre less situational and actually have a few viable boats (mostly Talos, Ishkur and Mega). with most Gallente boats, other races still do it better. this is why im hoping medium rails will get some more love, to make Deimos competitive with the Zealot.


and almost every ship is situational... and ships that do 'everything too well' (drake for example) get nerfed. there are a select few ships that are completely better than another in every regard. standing by my first post in the thread, 'going green list,' gallente has plenty of ships that are 'up to par' and are the best in some situations, just like every other race.

deimos is meant for blasters/ and the reason why it gets such a bad rep is because it is such a big threat it gets primaried all the time. and i've read a few things that number crunch, test, and what not and say the nano deimos is better than the vaga in every way other than range and speed. so obviously there are situations when the vaga is better and situations when the deimos is and situations when the zealot is better, etc etc etc.

they are up to par, stop with the QQ threads.


nano Deimos and Vaga both suck, as long as Blastos and Cynabal exist. an AHAC blaster Deimos is a fantastic little ship with logi support, but the Zealot has vastly superior damage projection.

it would be great if the rail Deimos could pull off about 500dps with rails while retaining a decent tank. right now u cant even fit a rack of 200's with a 1600 plate. how stupid is that? even with 2 mag stabs, youre doing less than 400dps with your turrets and have a ~30k EHP armour tank. Roll
Dorian Tormak
RBON United
#38 - 2012-01-26 23:38:51 UTC
Any Gallente ship can beat the Minmatar equivalent.

They have always been up to par.

Holy Satanic Christ! This is a Goddamn Signature!

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#39 - 2012-01-26 23:46:05 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:

nano Deimos and Vaga both suck, as long as Blastos and Cynabal exist


Huh, I hadn't thought about that but I think you're right. I liked the nano Deimos but now that role in practice has been fully supplanted by the Blaster Talos.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

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