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Player Owned Customs Office: Your feedback on the past month

First post
Author
Mary Mercer
Doomheim
#141 - 2012-01-19 01:34:45 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
Hello and a happy new year!

We are getting back to work and this is high time to evaluate how the Player Owned Customs Office feature worked out and potentially address any rough edges. Needless to say, we have been monitoring the developments for any major issues, and several defects were fixed during the past month. With this thread we want to collect your impressions and learn how you are using the feature and how you believe it has impacted EVE.

Here are a few questions if you need help to get started. Please remember that constructive feedback is more likely to lead anywhere.

1. Is there anything related to the Customs Office feature or PI taxes that you think is broken or terrible?

2. Do you think the amount of PvP engagements has changed in EVE as a result of this feature?

3. Do you think the feature has created new opportunities for small to mid-sized corporations?

4. Do you think PI has become more or less relevant in EVE?

5. Do you have any awesome story related to a Player Owned Customs Office?


Best regards
CCP Omen


1.... Give us some weapons. Nothing major, but we should be able to upgrade these so customers can be protected from single target frigs and crap while doing pi deliver and drops. Maybe a single gun or two capability with about the same strength as gate guns, perhaps a little better. Nothing serious just a single or double frig pirate deterrence. Can't make it over powered.. but yeah.. upgradable to something like that would be slick.

Also, not sure if it's fixed but it would not allow a tax rate of 0.0. Needs to be fixed if it hasn't.

2. Some people have used it as a contention area in FW, but in reality I don't think it's caused major pvp engagements to increase.

3. only by the good graces of the big guys.. Which is very sad actually. Any large alliance wants to come in and take over a pi office and it can. Since there is no on-going maintenance there is no reason not to just hord a ton of planets. Small alliances/corps are not going to shoot down the goons offices for fear of major retaliation (an example). If the offices required fuel (say monthly like a pos) even a very small amount it would mean that they have to be upkept and would further make large groups disinterested in owning massive amounts of them.

4. It's used in some TII production, and pos's.. interest change from the offices themselves I don't think will matter. PI has gone up in price quite a bit, but that was expected I guess.

5. Nope. I think they were implicated as a complete passive income type deal for larger groups. It's silly that they don't require monthly maintenance. One alliance could literally take over an entire constellation without ever visiting the planet again.... That's silly.
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#142 - 2012-01-19 01:42:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Garr Earthbender
5. I've had only 1 fight over a POCO, and we ended up on the losing side. BIG TIME. Pirates did what they do best and waited till most people went to bed thinking nothing was incoming. Then they struck and took down a carrier. Sucked. Still, it's memorable and we won't be making that mistake again.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper

Via Mortificare
Morgrath Ventures
#143 - 2012-01-19 14:19:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Via Mortificare
It's absurdly complicated.

First of all it's a solo job. PI is not something you do on corp or alliance level. To get a corp op to shoot POCOs has proven to be impossible, and many dreads have been lost when people are forced to do it themselves (don't start a discussion about undocking a dread solo, it's not important).

In the start I would have had to invest over three billion just for the blueprints I need, now the price is about one billion. For just the blueprints for my production chains.
Near-maximized skills on three toons, that's one planet for each raw material and three production planets.

As for the earlier "clicking" change, the idea was good and the implementation was horrible. To optimize production you now have to manually move each god damned extractor. Clicking has quadrupled, unless you don't care about your output at all.

In short, it's a corp or alliance level fix for a business that is done by individuals [yes, my main toons are in a big alliance].
I wish it wasn't an emoragequit post, but since I lived in NPC space I was practically forced to either stop doing PI (adapt, find other ways to get ISK) or move (quit alliance and everyone I've played with for years what's the point), and neither was an option so I just put EVE on hold, waiting for Diablo 3.

As for the UI improvements on customs offices and pads: Great job.
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#144 - 2012-01-22 18:44:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Xen Solarus
CCP Omen wrote:

1. Is there anything related to the Customs Office feature or PI taxes that you think is broken or terrible?


PI taxes are brutal, which no doubt encourages people to look to setup their own POCO's. Which at first i was pretty against, but i can see now that its creating another interesting avenue for people to explore, though i still think that this has mostly to do with Dust. The only issue i have is the excessive time it takes to destroy interbus custom offices. As this is likely what ccp wants from these changes, why not make it quicker and easier?

On a side note, IMPROVE THE SILOS! Only 5k? Makes it completely useless. Everyone uses spaceports instead!

CCP Omen wrote:

2. Do you think the amount of PvP engagements has changed in EVE as a result of this feature?


Though personally i've not experienced this, i'm sure that it will lead to more pvp. POCO's are going to be giant floating bait, even more so considering they're relatively defenceless. Only larger alliances will have the ability to effectively defend many POCO's, and thus they'll be the ones to dominate it in low-sec.

CCP Omen wrote:

3. Do you think the feature has created new opportunities for small to mid-sized corporations?


Yes and no. Absolute no for low-sec and null, as only alliances will have the manpower and activity to defend their POCO's. Small corporations might find themselves being baited into defending their assets only to find "its a trap!". Though i would say that in wh space, it can prove to be a benefit, as the time it takes to take down a POCO is quite large, and thus not many fleets could be bothered to stay in a single wh for the extended periods required. Unless, of course, they have something against the corp, or are looking to take that wh from them. So perhaps for dedicated PI corps that feel they've been shafted by the changes, time to move to wh space!

Most of all though, small corporations can't even take them down! They require alot of shooty-shooty and time to do so, and many small corps won't be able to achieve this.

Though, individuals that used to make a quiet bit of isk from PI have been effected the worst. Completely screwed i'd say. Shocked

CCP Omen wrote:

4. Do you think PI has become more or less relevant in EVE?


I guess this depends on what kind of player you are. PvP types and pirates are always going to slate PI, but industrialists can and do make alot of isk from it. With your own POCO, PI materials can be effectively free! Who can say 100% profit is a bad thing? Lol Lots of other people were moaning about POS fuel prices changing, but im sure in time that will stablize again, if it hasn't already.

Personally, i'd say that the changes have made it more relevant, as people are now being forced to consider it more than before.

CCP Omen wrote:

5. Do you have any awesome story related to a Player Owned Customs Office?


None i'd like to admit. Straight

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  

Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#145 - 2012-01-22 23:36:17 UTC
Xen Solarus wrote:
Though, individuals that used to make a quiet bit of isk from PI have been effected the worst. Completely screwed i'd say. Shocked

Im confused why people keep saying this. The prices of every PI item have gone up based on the highsec taxes. Even the lowest priced P1 items are up more than 50 isk/u compared to september prices. I have yet to see a lowsec POCO that didn't allow public access. And I have seen exactly one that had a tax rate above interbus, with most of them in the 5-10% range.

So why have individuals been screwed?

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Nekopyat
Nee-Co
#146 - 2012-01-23 01:50:38 UTC
Mary Mercer wrote:

1.... Give us some weapons. Nothing major, but we should be able to upgrade these so customers can be protected from single target frigs and crap while doing pi deliver and drops. Maybe a single gun or two capability with about the same strength as gate guns, perhaps a little better. Nothing serious just a single or double frig pirate deterrence. Can't make it over powered.. but yeah.. upgradable to something like that would be slick.



I would go one step further.

Something I have always found kinda out of sync in EvE is how NPCs can put up towers anywhere while players can only place them around moons. Here is an opportunity to introduce a new ancor point, planets, then allow POCOs to either be free standing or associated with a tower, which brings along all those defenses.
Ultima Forsan
Planetarum
#147 - 2012-01-23 02:14:16 UTC
I finally found a use for Alt Slots. Just before the changes I started simple one planet PI with my 2 mains. I mostly forgot to re-start the extractors, and let the storage overflow.

WIth the changes, I took another look at PI. Finally, a reason to use the alt slots. I trained them up, dropped them in a WH, and figured I'd start replacing customs offices starting with the p4 planet and work backwards through biggest producers.

Only Problem, is zero chance of getting through the 17 million ehp.

I want my 2 months back! I wasted my time with this. Paying the full tax 2.5 times makes PI useless unless you can get the customs office down.

Any ideas on how to low skill siege of customs office? I could put 3 pilots on it. Maybe smartbombers?

-={Ultima Forsan}=-

Nekopyat
Nee-Co
#148 - 2012-01-23 03:37:44 UTC
Ultima Forsan wrote:

Any ideas on how to low skill siege of customs office? I could put 3 pilots on it. Maybe smartbombers?


3 Ammar battleships with pulses would probably do the trick.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#149 - 2012-01-23 04:11:52 UTC
Nekopyat wrote:
Ultima Forsan wrote:

Any ideas on how to low skill siege of customs office? I could put 3 pilots on it. Maybe smartbombers?


3 Ammar battleships with pulses would probably do the trick.


3x Domis with Pulse lasers and either heavies or rigged for sentries.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#150 - 2012-01-23 14:08:41 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
Xen Solarus wrote:
Though, individuals that used to make a quiet bit of isk from PI have been effected the worst. Completely screwed i'd say. Shocked

Im confused why people keep saying this. The prices of every PI item have gone up based on the highsec taxes. Even the lowest priced P1 items are up more than 50 isk/u compared to september prices. I have yet to see a lowsec POCO that didn't allow public access. And I have seen exactly one that had a tax rate above interbus, with most of them in the 5-10% range.

So why have individuals been screwed?


Simple really, the new system is heavily in the favour of big corps and alliances. They're going to be the ones that dominate the POCO's in low sec. Where before individuals could nip in and out for their PI stuff, now they're having to rethink all their plans. Finding one without crazy tax rates for a start, as well as the fact that any planets they setup could find the tax changed at anytime.

The only option left is doing it in high, where the planet resources are crap, and the interbus taxes are mental. Not that i'm saying they won't be able to make a profit, it just won't be anywhere near as much as it used to be.

You also have to consider the increased on-going price of PI now. I have many characters doing it, and the daily cost is quite staggering. I can spend like 100mill a day easily just on taxes, and thats before i've moved them anywhere. And thats assuming as well that you're the sort of player that makes PI stuff to just sell immediately on the market. Some of us like to make POS structures.

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  

Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#151 - 2012-01-23 15:23:32 UTC
Quote:
Simple really, the new system is heavily in the favour of big corps and alliances. They're going to be the ones that dominate the POCO's in low sec. Where before individuals could nip in and out for their PI stuff, now they're having to rethink all their plans. Finding one without crazy tax rates for a start, as well as the fact that any planets they setup could find the tax changed at anytime.

You speak in the future tense, of a feature that has been deployed for 2 months now. Have you checked how is it working on TQ? I repeat again. I haven't found a single lowsec POCO closed to the public. In a quick check today, only one system had a tax over highsec levels (20% in Lantorn). Entire constellations in Heimatar and Molden Heath are at tax levels from 5% to 10%. In particular, the russians in Istodard have POCOed their entire constellation at 5% (they just joined an alliance, but they are a 30 man corp, hardly "big").

The risk of having the tax changed? How much is that? Setting up a colony costs under 10 mil. You can make that back in a week of unchanged tax. Besides, it doesn't happen all that often, especially to higher taxes.

Quote:
The only option left is doing it in high, where the planet resources are crap, and the interbus taxes are mental. Not that i'm saying they won't be able to make a profit, it just won't be anywhere near as much as it used to be.

The customers at my POCOs disagree that's "the only option". But how much has profit changed from before crucible? Take P1 harvesting as a base. Bacteria, the cheapest P1 right now, sold for around 100 isk/unit back in september (before the PI devblogs started affecting the market). All of that was profit, since taxes were negligible. Right now, the average is about 180 isk/u, with 50 isk/u of highsec tax. So profits actually went up by 30%. The more expensive P1s have gone up even more, in some cases even doubling their price.

So why are they not making "anywhere near as much"?

Quote:
You also have to consider the increased on-going price of PI now. I have many characters doing it, and the daily cost is quite staggering. I can spend like 100mill a day easily just on taxes, and thats before i've moved them anywhere. And thats assuming as well that you're the sort of player that makes PI stuff to just sell immediately on the market. Some of us like to make POS structures.

Well, yes, you are now required to have some starting capital for PI. But you can only reach those 100mil/day if you are talking about factory planets. And compared to the capital needed for any other industry, it's pretty low.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

bilingi
The Lancers Cartel
#152 - 2012-01-23 16:29:27 UTC
Your also a lair...... Just how many Customers can use 1 planet.... You guys defending this must make crap load from Dev BJs..
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#153 - 2012-01-23 16:54:02 UTC
bilingi wrote:
Your also a lair...... Just how many Customers can use 1 planet.... You guys defending this must make crap load from Dev BJs..

My also a lair?

One of my planets has had 14 unique customers since friday.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#154 - 2012-01-23 18:16:53 UTC
Any way to tell whether all 14 are harvesting the same thing? Or are they factory planet customers? If the 14 harvesters are spread across at least 3 different raw materials, I could see that not being a big issue.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#155 - 2012-01-23 18:27:36 UTC
Not easily.

I can tell there is some processing going on the planet, because some people import. But imports are typically much smaller than the exports (10-20% of the value). I assume they are extracting some raw materials, then adding a bit extra to export a P3.

Obviously, there's a wild variation between export amounts. Some people do it clock-like every day, others take their time. One day I will do a proper analysis.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
#156 - 2012-01-23 22:52:38 UTC
Happy New Year to you and your team to Omen.


1. Is there anything related to the Customs Office feature or PI taxes that you think is broken or terrible?

-- not sure, dont own one yet.

2. Do you think the amount of PvP engagements has changed in EVE as a result of this feature?

-- Definitely. It varies greatly by region but I've seen quite a few POCO's change ownership so they are definitely a conflict generator. The huge notification timer is nice to. Lets anyone roaming know that a fights coming which will undoubtedly create many interesting fights in the future.

3. Do you think the feature has created new opportunities for small to mid-sized corporations?

Definitely. While certain regions might be dominated by large entities I've seen several instances of small and medium sized corps putting up one or three CO's on prime planets or splitting a system with new friends. While we are certainly at the beginning stages this feature show's excellent promise.

4. Do you think PI has become more or less relevant in EVE?

-- unchanged

5. Do you have any awesome story related to a Player Owned Customs Office?

-- not yet.

+1 for the boost to storage units and fixing the 'getting stuck' problem.

I can see where Interbus HP might be a PITA for null alliances but overall it seems to be working well in low sec and w space.

The timer is the best defense on a POCO so they really don't need guns or mods. Let people turn them into deathstars and you guarantee you need a blob to kill them instead of a small gang, so all is well here.

If it's not a major grind for you, perhaps reducing their sig rad would encourage more bs or bc oriented gangs instead of dreads/carriers. At the same time nothing brings people to a fight like cap km's so maybe it's fine as is.



To date I've been pleasantly surprised. None of the worst case scenarios seem to have come to play. In every instance that i've seen a CO getting ref'ed there was a genuine purpose to it. I cant recall seeing a single system where the co's had been popped and not replaced. And to my surprise I've seen a number of pirate corps become active in POCO ownership. So overall nice new feature with lots of mileage left to exploit on it.
bilingi
The Lancers Cartel
#157 - 2012-01-24 20:26:00 UTC
BS but keep posting it. Shows how low IQ for eve has dropped that they have to lie on forums.
Ultima Forsan
Planetarum
#158 - 2012-01-26 02:41:54 UTC
How about some kind of siege weapon for taking down customs offices and abandoned pos? AFAIK, these tasks can't be effectively done without large fleets. How about an expensive siege weapon with no tank, no tracking. deploy/ anchor/ online and siege at 100 km. It could be easily taken down with a frigate, as it has no tracking, and no tank. left alone at 100km from a pos or customs office, it will take it down in a fair amount of time. Beacon comes up in local the whole time it is being onlined and operational. It could really only be used for abandoned pos and undefended customs offices. Anyone ever heard of an idea like this?

-={Ultima Forsan}=-

Nekopyat
Nee-Co
#159 - 2012-01-26 03:31:23 UTC
Ultima Forsan wrote:
How about some kind of siege weapon for taking down customs offices and abandoned pos? AFAIK, these tasks can't be effectively done without large fleets. How about an expensive siege weapon with no tank, no tracking. deploy/ anchor/ online and siege at 100 km. It could be easily taken down with a frigate, as it has no tracking, and no tank. left alone at 100km from a pos or customs office, it will take it down in a fair amount of time. Beacon comes up in local the whole time it is being onlined and operational. It could really only be used for abandoned pos and undefended customs offices. Anyone ever heard of an idea like this?


You know, since they finally introduced 'true' battlecruisers... I could see them finally introducing some kind of 'field artillery' units that fit capital weapons but are pretty defenseless.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#160 - 2012-01-26 04:10:06 UTC
Nekopyat wrote:
Ultima Forsan wrote:
How about some kind of siege weapon for taking down customs offices and abandoned pos? AFAIK, these tasks can't be effectively done without large fleets. How about an expensive siege weapon with no tank, no tracking. deploy/ anchor/ online and siege at 100 km. It could be easily taken down with a frigate, as it has no tracking, and no tank. left alone at 100km from a pos or customs office, it will take it down in a fair amount of time. Beacon comes up in local the whole time it is being onlined and operational. It could really only be used for abandoned pos and undefended customs offices. Anyone ever heard of an idea like this?


You know, since they finally introduced 'true' battlecruisers... I could see them finally introducing some kind of 'field artillery' units that fit capital weapons but are pretty defenseless.


Like some kind of large battleship with a small number of very large guns?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon