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T2 BPO - Dual Heavy Beam Laser II

Author
Brock Nelson
#21 - 2012-01-25 01:30:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Brock Nelson
Jack Dant wrote:
Brock Nelson wrote:
Jack Dant wrote:
It has ridiculously low demand, much lower than it used to have. A couple producers are enough to keep Jita saturated.


Erm...600-1200 volume per day is low? I don't know about everyone but I made a cool bil inventing, building and selling them off in Jita this past month.

And yes, inventing will always be more profitable than building off bpo.

Erm, are you sure you have the right item? Dual heavy beam II 's only sell 100 units on a good day, and most days it doesn't reach 50.

Originally the thread mentioned the heavy beam (medium gun), but that also sold at a loss according to the website and my own invention spreadsheet. That one only moves 100-200 a day, except for someone buying out the market last night. Good luck whoever that was, you'll need it to sell 5000 units at profit.


The original title said Heavy Beam Laser, not Dual Heavy Beam.

Eisengans wrote:
Brock Nelson wrote:
... And yes, inventing will always be more profitable than building off bpo.


Shocked

Please explain. And don't tell us, that you can generate more T2 BPCs by invention (i.e. more production runs)... This would be ridiculous.


That's exactly what I will tell you. You can always generate more T2 BPCs and run 10 production line at a time on a single alt while with a BPO, you can only have 1 production line going.

Yes, you can do 1 BPO and 9 BPC production but you're just blurring up both invention and owning BPO now.

Signature removed, CCP Phantom

Eisengans
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2012-01-25 08:16:57 UTC
Brock Nelson wrote:

Yes, you can do 1 BPO and 9 BPC production but you're just blurring up both invention and owning BPO now.



Come on. Then let's do it the simple way: 10x T2 BPOs against 10x invented T2 BPCs. Which is more profitable?

Your comparison is like:
Player 1 generates 10M ISK per hour doing hisec mining with his 1 account
Player 2 generates 100M ISK per hour doing hisec mining with his 7 accounts inkl. 1 Orca pilot. Roll

It's just an useless comparison.

Nevertheless the core question why a T2 BPO is generating a loss is still not properly answered.

Is it really just an oversupply from several years ago production volume?
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#23 - 2012-01-25 08:33:13 UTC
Brock Nelson wrote:
Jack Dant wrote:
Originally the thread mentioned the heavy beam (medium gun), but that also sold at a loss according to the website and my own invention spreadsheet. That one only moves 100-200 a day, except for someone buying out the market last night. Good luck whoever that was, you'll need it to sell 5000 units at profit.


The original title said Heavy Beam Laser, not Dual Heavy Beam.

I said exactly that in the bit you quoted. I also said volume was much much lower than what you were reporting.

Quote:
Eisengans wrote:
Brock Nelson wrote:
... And yes, inventing will always be more profitable than building off bpo.


Shocked

Please explain. And don't tell us, that you can generate more T2 BPCs by invention (i.e. more production runs)... This would be ridiculous.


That's exactly what I will tell you. You can always generate more T2 BPCs and run 10 production line at a time on a single alt while with a BPO, you can only have 1 production line going.

Yes, you can do 1 BPO and 9 BPC production but you're just blurring up both invention and owning BPO now.

And yet, you completely missed his point. Invention will always give lower profit per item than a T2 BPO, if only because of datacore cost. So if building from BPO loses money, inventing must lose even more. Hence the question, where are those items coming from?

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#24 - 2012-01-25 10:02:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Smoking Blunts
Eisengans wrote:
Brock Nelson wrote:

Yes, you can do 1 BPO and 9 BPC production but you're just blurring up both invention and owning BPO now.



Come on. Then let's do it the simple way: 10x T2 BPOs against 10x invented T2 BPCs. Which is more profitable?

Your comparison is like:
Player 1 generates 10M ISK per hour doing hisec mining with his 1 account
Player 2 generates 100M ISK per hour doing hisec mining with his 7 accounts inkl. 1 Orca pilot. Roll

It's just an useless comparison.

Nevertheless the core question why a T2 BPO is generating a loss is still not properly answered.

Is it really just an oversupply from several years ago production volume?



this is down to how you determin profitiblity.
10 t2 bpo's will cost you around 250bil + build costs and makes you back 5bil/month
10 t2 bpc's will cost you for a months production 1bil. + build costs and makes you back 4bil/month
so the profit on your isk invested is way way way higher on a t2 bpc than on bpo's any day of the week.
if you have trillions of isk and can disregard the isk you invested well lucky you, but ive always looked at the profit i can make from the isk i spend.

as to why a t2 bpo dosnt make profit there are a number of factors.
'the minerials i mine are free' is a big part of it. people mine normal mins and t2 mins, and often regard them as 'free'.
the over supply of that t2 item, mostly due to it sucking like hell, see t2 armour plates, nos's etc etc. in this case 1 t2 bpo can over supply the market, and if you have 2 or more t2 bpo holders producing that item tehy will 1isk the crap out of them til they sell below build costs.
the final reason that over the last 7 years eve has taught me is. a lot of people are idiots, they dont check margins and think its a t2 item it must make isk and produce blindly. over all i think this has to be the biggets factor in items selling below build costs.

OMG when can i get a pic here

Eisengans
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2012-01-25 10:29:23 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:

this is down to how you determin profitiblity.
10 t2 bpo's will cost you around 250bil + build costs and makes you back 5bil/month
10 t2 bpc's will cost you for a months production 1bil. + build costs and makes you back 4bil/month
so the profit on your isk invested is way way way higher on a t2 bpc than on bpo's any day of the week.
if you have trillions of isk and can disregard the isk you invested well lucky you, but ive always looked at the profit i can make from the isk i spend.


No doubt and no need to discuss about this! But that was at no point a question of this topic!

Smoking Blunts wrote:
as to why a t2 bpo dosnt make profit there are a number of factors.
1) 'the minerials i mine are free' is a big part of it. people mine normal mins and t2 mins, and often regard them as 'free'.

2) the over supply of that t2 item, mostly due to it sucking like hell, see t2 armour plates, nos's etc etc. in this case 1 t2 bpo can over supply the market, and if you have 2 or more t2 bpo holders producing that item tehy will 1isk the crap out of them til they sell below build costs.

3) the final reason that over the last 7 years eve has taught me is. a lot of people are idiots, they dont check margins and think its a t2 item it must make isk and produce blindly. over all i think this has to be the biggets factor in items selling below build costs.


1) Yes, can be, but there are easier ways to do so. Building T2 raw materials from minerals to produce a T2 loss item means to much efforts for people who don't care about profit anyway. In connection with point 3) this may be a reason

2) The only explaination which can answer the question so far from my point of view. Oversupply.

3) Absolutely. There are a lot of people outside who do not think about what they do. But can those people afford T2 BPOs and are clever enough to use them? ^^ Maybe enough of them are producing this item? I don't know...
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#26 - 2012-01-25 11:27:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Smoking Blunts
Eisengans wrote:


1) Yes, can be, but there are easier ways to do so. Building T2 raw materials from minerals to produce a T2 loss item means to much efforts for people who don't care about profit anyway. In connection with point 3) this may be a reason

2) The only explaination which can answer the question so far from my point of view. Oversupply.

3) Absolutely. There are a lot of people outside who do not think about what they do. But can those people afford T2 BPOs and are clever enough to use them? ^^ Maybe enough of them are producing this item? I don't know...


the mins i mine are free crowd, have always been in eve. just now with the PI crap being 'free' makes a massive difference on there build costs. most of the build costs with the build in question is robotics. if you make 'free' robotics why not use soem to make a profit on a build your doing blindly cos its a t2 item and you cant be asked to check raw data. after all those robotics are 'free' and who can compeat with 'free build stuffs'. dosnt matter if its from a bpc or bpo.
its not really a question about effort if you have the mind set of 'i make it therefore its free of cost' aka idiot syndrom.
so shite item + t2 bpo + idiots = worthless items to build

OMG when can i get a pic here

Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#27 - 2012-01-25 12:18:25 UTC
short answer: because its a bad item, noone ever uses for something. Never saw a ship shooting with DHB lasers.

Even Dual Heavy Pulses are rarely used although they have pretty nice stats.
Brock Nelson
#28 - 2012-01-25 15:18:42 UTC
Yeah...I'm not gonna start arguing about bpo vs invention.

This horse has been beaten for so long that noobs thinks it used to be a cow

Signature removed, CCP Phantom

Levija Saplina
Ken Interplanetary Communication
#29 - 2012-01-25 16:02:51 UTC
Brock Nelson wrote:
Yeah...I'm not gonna start arguing about bpo vs invention.

This horse has been beaten for so long that noobs thinks it used to be a cow


I ...
Lauren Hellfury
Full Pocket Aggro
#30 - 2012-01-25 19:32:41 UTC
Levija Saplina wrote:
Brock Nelson wrote:
Yeah...I'm not gonna start arguing about bpo vs invention.

This horse has been beaten for so long that noobs thinks it used to be a cow


I ...


Moral of the story: Don't buy meat from Brock.

The FPA T2 BPO community fund is currently accepting share purchases to help remove T2 BPOs from Eve. Link in sig.

Help rid New Eden of T2 BPOs: ** https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=62797 **The Full Pocket Aggro blog:  http://fullpocketaggro.blogspot.com/ **Now showing: **Margin Trading Scams

Dethmourne Silvermane
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-01-26 00:15:02 UTC
I think this has been trolled completely off track. OP's question, however badly phrased, boils down to "If I can't make a single isk producing this item FROM A RESEARCHED BPO, how come the prices don't rise until at -least- BPO owners can profit?"

The answer is present in the thread - because people who are inventing (probably - it's possible T2 BPO owners could be derping and blind-producing/selling at a loss, but somewhat less likely) are not taking into account opportunity cost while vertically integrating their product.

For a less complex example of opportunity cost that people do (that still ends up as a loss for people who are not vertically integrated), let's take some completely arbitrary numbers for a hypothetical widget.

Let's say Widget build cost = 1000 ISK + 1000 Tritanium (the ISK being the raw ISK cost of production time in a station or pos; we're assuming this is static when in reality this is somewhat in flux, but bear with me).
Let's also say that the sell price of a widget is 2000 ISK on the market (2 times its raw ISK cost, but we have yet to factor in Tritanium cost).
Let's say that Tritanium has 2 ISK buys, and 3 ISK sells, per unit.

So now, for the non-integrator (aka the intelligent builder), in the event that they are also generating tritanium, the profit of a widget is P=2000-(1000+2000[we'll assume buy price on trit here, as they're patient fellows]). P in this case is -1000, so the builder finds something else with a P value above 0.

For the integrator/roleplayer/freeminsguy, they're looking at "I can mine 1000 tritanium, build a widget, and get 2000 ISK". What they fail to notice is that they could get 3000 ISK selling the tritanium, or AT WORST get 2000 ISK selling to buy orders; both are better than their net profit of 1000 ISK on the widget (assuming cost of trit is not taken into account).

Interested Party (TM)

Shadowsword
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2012-01-26 12:06:32 UTC
Cardval Simalia wrote:
LMFAO T2 BPO owner moaning that his blueprint is not printing ISK. LMFAO have you tried invention? If you're so thick as **** that you can't make a BPO work don't even try invention you just don't have the brains for it or the stomach of how much effort it is compared to T2 BPO gifts from CCP.


My, it reeks so much of envy...

If something sell at less that it cost to produce, you can still "make a BPO work if you're not thick as ****"?

Enlighten us, please, I'm bringing my pop-corn...
TheBlueMonkey
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2012-01-27 13:06:40 UTC
Eisengans wrote:
Why is the BPO generating a loss, if I take a look on http://eveeye.com/profit.asp?

I have seen some other T2 BPOs as well in the last months who will generate a huge loss? How can they be more expensive then a T2 BPC, from which I guess the other T2 items of this product will come from? Or is there another source from where T2 items are generated and I just missed it?


There are alot of people in eve who do things "because they're fun" or "minerals I mine are free" etc.
These people will usually cry about no profits in areas too.

upside is now you can reprocess these items and sell them the base materials back for a profit :)
Eisengans
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2012-01-27 15:49:30 UTC
TheBlueMonkey wrote:
Eisengans wrote:
Why is the BPO generating a loss, if I take a look on http://eveeye.com/profit.asp?

I have seen some other T2 BPOs as well in the last months who will generate a huge loss? How can they be more expensive then a T2 BPC, from which I guess the other T2 items of this product will come from? Or is there another source from where T2 items are generated and I just missed it?


There are alot of people in eve who do things "because they're fun" or "minerals I mine are free" etc.
These people will usually cry about no profits in areas too.

upside is now you can reprocess these items and sell them the base materials back for a profit :)


You have absolutely no clue about reprocessing T2 materials, do you?
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