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Incursion fixes/feedback thread

First post First post
Caldari Acolyte
Shark Enterprises
#181 - 2012-01-24 17:20:50 UTC
Take incursions outta the game completely, no matter what CCP does it won't be good enough, people will still cry, the game survived without it, infact it was better without it.
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#182 - 2012-01-24 17:36:06 UTC  |  Edited by: carmelos53
This is a 100% fix for incursions for both high sec, low and null. CCP I really hope this catches your eyes.
On this char I've run at least 5000 incursion sites. That's all this char does.

Okay let's be honest... it's not an exploit. If people think it's unfair to not kill the mom for an extra 48 hours fine. My suggested solution:

-->Random diviation timers - the mom spawns in a time frame within 2 to 3 days (randomly) regardless of sansha influence. If you let the mom spawn the second the influence bar hits 0% than the mom dies in 5 hours like it does today. This is a big issue especially when it takes time to make the LARGER sized fleets which means MORE PEOPLE WILL WANT TO RUN VANGUARDS. The end game of incursions shouldn't be focused on vanguards ***fix suggestions on that below**
--> Now CCP needs to be VERY CAREFUL HERE - some people are suggesting that 'ONCE THE MOM SPAWNS ALL OTHER SITES STOP SPAWNING". Let me point out why that is a TERRIBLE IDEA. If the mom happens to spawn after downtime the influence for sansha is at 100%. Try killing a mom with 100% sansha influence. Your 80 man fleet won't make it out or be able to complete the site. Every single pilot would be slaughtered. CCP needs to make sure other sites are still able to be run while the mom has spawned.
--> Lastly, HOLD OFF THE ISK PAYOUT UNTIL THE INCURSION IS COMPLETED!!!!!!!!!! This will force people to have to kill the mom and not simply continue running sites.

LP market influx

I'm sorry but missions should be the LP pool here. Reduce incursion lp by at least 60% per site. Incursions require multiple people... yes that's true but they shouldn't give high amounts of isk AND lp....

Main route issue: Isk generation is to high for vanguards

Vanguard rebalancing

Fix Part 1 (General fix): Vanguard isk reduced by 50% (YES 50%!!!!!)
Reasoning: It is way to easy to specialize exact fleet comps to blitz vanguards

Fix Part 2 (site specific):
--> NCO need to SPLIT agro - niarja in particular as more logi are jammed. There also needs to be a Romi to slow the site down
--> NMC - I'm sorry but no fleet should have to mine ore to complete a site. Just give the fleet an end site structure to shoot at. Additional waves ALSO NEED TO SPAWN CLOSER TO THE WARP IN POINT so Battleship fleets don't have a 100% advantage
--> OTA - they are fine just make it impossible to finish the site by killing all 3 deltoes. Also many batlteship fleets simply alpha the waves before they even get in range to shoot. Same suggestion as NMCs here - make the waves much closer so a mixed fleet comp would be better than 100% faction machs - give everyone a chance

Assaults and HQs and THE MOM needs to have their isk generation increased. It takes much more time to put a fleet together AND keep it running. I suggest a MINIMUM of 25% across the board.

Assault rebalancing
Remove the NCN site and create another. NCNs are not ran simply because you need a very very specific fleet comp and even when you get it they take forever - infact right now you can do most HQs in equal or less time

HQ rebalancing
True Creations Research Center needs to be removed or changed due to the simply fact you are REQUIRED to have a code breaker to complete the site. Now it's fine if you get an ADVANTAGE by using a codebreak but pilots should never be forced to completely reship to complete a site of the same type ***different HQs**

MOM Rebalancing
Don't change a thing - very fun and challenging - alot can go wrong

Yours truly ~~

Carmelos53 - TDF armor FC
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#183 - 2012-01-24 17:55:26 UTC
Haqar wrote:
Darius III wrote:
Mission is successful. Many thank yous to the incursion guys for sharing their ideas and input with us. I forwarded your ideas to CCP. Even more thanks to the pilots who come out and destroy the Motherships time after time. YOU guys applied the pressure to force meaningful dialogue. The players made this happen for their own reasons.//

I do not think that we should be able to form up 40 guys and deny content for thousands of people day after day. I think that no group of players should have that much power over so many people, by exerting such little effort.

Pretty sure no one will believe me on this next point, but here goes anyway. I also wanted to do my part to try to ensure that the nerf/changes to Incursions were not too extreme against Incursions, nor too light. Telling you guys "I did this to help you" will doubtless be received a either a troll or a slap in the face to the uninformed.

I am linking some of the dialogue I had with a few of the luminaries from BTL/TDF. I had 20+ conversations with the folks who organize a large portion of Incurions but the most productive/informative one is linked here.
Hopefully we will see Incursions get rebalanced fairly and in a way that the majority of players agree with-both Incursion runners and the rest of Eve. It was necessary to halt incursions to force meaningful dialogue, and with luck everything will turn out for the best for as many players as possible.

Skunkworks, Kill It With Fire, Brick volunteers, the good people who joined our fleets and Krissada: My sincere thanks, what you have been able to accomplish is almost unprecedented in Eve. I stand in awe of your combined efforts and leadership. See you in fleet on Tuesday?

yea yea blah blah.

I have read it and no you dont know **** yet, atleast not from that convo.
Al i saw is some incusrions vets yapping true eachother and not really saying anyting usefull.
If you seriously think they know what they are on about .... well your a lost cause ...

Dont get me wrong i know them and do respect them, you too prolly since i dont know you but do i have an open mind.
But they are already living in low or null sec like yourself, so maby, just maby yall are out of touch with the persons that enter the game and are playing in high sec.

After doing the tutorials and run missions till you can dream them at lvl 4, people want something else.
So they go mining or run incursions, due to "omg you not shiney" whining that goes on in atleast btl, new channels where formed and stuff was sorted out. Now incursions are not for the 'new noob', let that be said, or they shouldnt be.
Imo incursions are for those that dont want to go low or null sec but like to play something more difficult then the same missions over and over again. Note that after a year of fcing incurions, i did assault, hq and moms they get as repetitive as missions.

So what needs to be changed if anything?
Well people that play a different branche of the game shouldnt be allowed to **** off this side of the game, just because they can.
As far as i know incursions where intended as a means to get groups of people working together and play together as randomly as possible and since they are both in low and highsec its for everyone in their respective area's.
Trying to get carebears to move to low or null, wont happen, trust me, it wont.
Sitewise, its an idea if the time invested to form a fleet in order to run a site is equally rewarded payout wise, that i think has been said more then once in this thread.
So besides all the good idea's beeing metioned here, having low/nullsec player disrupting the carebears way of doing things just because they can/ beeing pised about how carebears farm incursions/ or having different agenda's due to elections, is whole different set of tears then the obvious: "omg i killed your mom, now you cant farm bwahahaha....let me blue the wrecks while im at it to create so much lag you people will die too hahahah"...thats just grieving, sorry it is.
While you have your ass back in low or null wherever you tend to play, how about you farm them there and do the same as the bears do? Problem solved.
Also try to find your backbone again will ya? Going:" Well i really wanted to stop this but umm tdf walked away from the table so now i must go on", is as pathetic as a 3 year old whining on whatever they whine about

So when/if you actually can get serious about this and want to know about things that might need some chaging, find me, untill then you just the next troll as mentioned in that convo, been there done that more then once already, your not that special darius

Just my 2 cents on this matter

I love how you edited the logs Darius III and left out the part of your demands and threats to the player base. You aren't a CSM... you're a troll.

Cee Dublyew
Loretta Holding Corp
#184 - 2012-01-24 18:44:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Cee Dublyew
First of all, Thank you for doing what you guys do.

As far as changes, I have a few idea's that I hope you guys like.

1.) My First payout idea: Payout needs to be adjusted (increased) for every site except vanguards IMO. Many people only do Vanguard sites because it's the best risk/reward ratio. Make it more difficult to kill the Sansha in the Vanguard sites (expanded upon in 1a, 1b, and 1c). Making it more rewarding (LP and ISK) in the other systems - (Assault, and HQ systems) will bring players to those other sites, making everything about incursions fun/exciting/engaging.
  • 1a.) In OTA's, if someone wants to blitz it and doing the "Deltole, Deltole, Deltole" don't have the rest of the Sansha put their tail between their legs and warp off. Have them stay if nothing else (and only nothing else) got killed. The problem with the farming, is that it is easily blitzable. Requiring more to be done to finish a site can help curb some of the whining. For Example: Require all Eystur's to get killed before payout if the site was ran using the "Deltole, Deltole, Deltole" technique.
  • 1b.) In NMC's, it's been several months that Sansha's been getting lyavite, and having it kill their refinery's. I think the Sansha should be well aware that Lyavite can harm their refinery's and take appropriate measures. I would suggest an assortment of different (rare) ore's that can kill their refinery's. I would even suggest having 1And Only 1 of those kinds of ore's kill their refinery. To elaborate, I would go further and suggesting that Sansha have a different kind of refinery that takes a different kind of deadly ore for each type of (randomized) refinery that spawns.
  • 1c.) In NCO's, set up a time-limit that the Commander is there. If the commander warps off, no reward for anyone. If someone Warp Scram's him, he can self-destruct after the time-limit, again, with no reward. The npc commander "know's" there will be a cloning facility in one of the Assault sites, and Concord can "save some ISK" since it wasn't really successful. It will create more thoughtful planning on the FC to handle the site.

  • 2.) My Second payout idea: Because I fully expect a nerf in regards to Incursion payouts, have the payouts Increase as the more sites are completed. For Example: if I ran a scout site once, have payouts remain the same. If I ran 50 scout sites, increase vanguard payouts slightly. 100 scout sites and the payout increases more-so for the vanguard sites. The same formula can be done for the vanguard's, assault's, and HQ's. It would drive those that do farm the sites, into wanting to kill the mom, simply for the huge payout.

    3.) My Third payout idea: Just like LP's, don't pay anyone until the MOM is poped.

    4.) The gate npc spawns should definitely be more prevelant. It doesn't make sense (in RP) that the spawns will only show up at the gate at the start, and nothing else show's up, even though there's an influx of Sansha coming in.
  • 4a.)The longer that the incursion is spawned, I would suggest creating more spawns at the acceleration gates. (Example: let's say it's been a week and an incursion spawn has been around, and has been withdrawing for day's - have Deltole's at all of the acceleration gates. The Sansha are trying to leave, but, they keep getting killed, so, the deltole's can be the the escorts to get everyone else out of there.) The desire to pop the mom will be much greater as the incursion gets more difficult/intense.

  • 5.) Low-sec needs love. Whatever turns out to be the new payout, double it in low-sec. Nobody wants to do it because of the opposite issue with hi-sec. Too much risk for the reward. Increasing the reward may bring more people into low-sec and make everyone much happier.
  • 5a.) Have the HQ system (and HQ system only) spawn in low-sec with appropriately increased rewards.

  • 6.) Respawns should be no longer than the next down-time. It doesn't make sense that Sansha will wait 24 hours before trying again. When a site is withdrawing, the Sansha can be "planning" to go to a new site. I would even suggest having 1 or 3 scout sites (and scout sites only) spawn elsewhere while a system is withdrawing. When the mom is popped, vanguard/assaults/hq sites in to the scout site that has the least amount of sites down due to player interaction will be the new incursion area. It will make the scout sites in other places, worth doing, especially if a group wants a scout site to escalate in their system.

    7.) Slow down the progression of the influence rate, and have the penalties be more severe, such as higher rate of respawns when there is a high penalty, and slow rate of respawns when there is low penalty. I'm not familiar enough with it, to give a more specific explanation, but, it barely has any affect in how I do my incursion, even though it really should.

    8.) There isn't much faction warfare going on. Having a player corp geared for sansha, and specifically defending the Sansha, can create a realism not seen in hi-sec. Going further, I would even suggest that putting a warning in the Incursion public fleet channel can create a sort of risk not seen in hi-sec. It would inspire All fleets in a particular system - to band together and annihilate (or create a great loot-pile for) the Sansha defenders. If Concord can't kill the sansha, I don't see why Sansha friendly corp's can't avoid concord too. It just seems like the Sansha are doing something that stop them from getting targeted. From all the Lore I've read, corporations themselves do not like the capsuleer's working for them. Having the Sansha friendly capsuleer fleet in any Sansha site, will be treated like any other fleet, (getting targeted by NPC's) but, outside the acceleration gates, it's fair game.
    Jas Dor
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #185 - 2012-01-24 18:51:24 UTC
    Just on a completely unrelated note. A poster in another thread pointed out that people in null are unlikely to keep shiny ships around (at this point in the game, changes to game mechanics might change that). Further, unless their is some strategic reason to do so null sec incursions are going to be run by ad hoc groups of line pilots on off time. 0.0 alliances really don't do 40 man gangs for PVE. Maybe one balancing issue that should be looked into is creating some form of super vanguard for 0.0 that can be run by 10 guys in T2 fits.

    Maybe Vanguards should be limited to 0.0 and low sec. If high sec mechanics aid in putting together large PvE fleets that might be the more appropriate place to focus on large scale PvE content.
    Arcana Imperii Ltd.
    #186 - 2012-01-24 20:30:45 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
    From my blog:

    I’ve tried to think through changes that would enhance gameplay, balance various mechanics, and make sense in respect to existing lore. As we have continued to make incursions the hot topic on the forums, I figure I’ll cover that first.

    I’ve never been “into” incursions. I was interested when they first came out, but never had a fleet of friends to run them and never wanted to play the “LFAF” pickup game. So my first real exposure to them was after I joined Skunkworks; that whole story is well documented and I’ll spare you even a summary of how it started. Early on, I started trying to think of ways to fix the issue of highsec vanguard farming without breaking incursions.

    It needs to be said that I do not object to incursions. I’m all for cooperative content. After all, I got my start playing cooperatively with some friends. Had incursions existed when we were actively playing together, we probably would have been involved in them as soon as we possibly could....

    My first solution was obvious: reduce vanguard payments, and balance that change by increasing the payouts of the larger sites which require larger and more coordinated fleets. It’s an obvious solution, and perhaps too simple. Taking it a step further, I suggested a lore-based solution: Concord would become frustrated with capsuleers farming incursions when they are being paid to stop the Sansha attacks. As a result, after a certain amount of time (or a certain amount of PvE activity), rewards for incursions would be reduced over a period of time to about 50%. It would then become more profitable to end the incursion so that a new one could spawn than to continue farming the same one.

    Recently, I had this idea: have Sansha adapt their strategies. If Vanguard sites are being swarmed, reduce the number of vanguards and spawn more of the other sites. What’s more, they could react to the fleet composition of the defenders, fielding more e-war or more DPS depending on what kind of resistance they were facing. It makes sense that a force capable of overwhelming Concord would be clever enough to not press a failed strategy over and over again.

    These three solutions are not exclusive; they can all work together. Rebalance payouts, create a steady decline in rewards in order to make a compelling reason to go after the mothership, and make the Sanshas smarter on a macro level. Do that and you’ll have much more interesting and balanced PvE content without enraging most of the incursion community.

    tl;dr: Make incursions more dynamic and unpredictable.

    Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

    Arcana Imperii Ltd.
    #187 - 2012-01-24 20:44:35 UTC
    carmelos53 wrote:
    --> NMC - I'm sorry but no fleet should have to mine ore to complete a site.
    True Creations Research Center needs to be removed or changed due to the simply fact you are REQUIRED to have a code breaker to complete the site.

    I've never run one of these sites in particular, so I'll just ask: is the echelon required? If so, I'll agree with you that it's silly to force a fleet member to reship to a vessel designed to do just this one job.

    If that's not the case, suck it up. Explorers have flown swiss army knife fits for years because we need codebreakers, analyzers, and salvagers to make the most of what we find. You're saying you can't come up with a fit that gives up a single mid slot for a codebreaker when your fleet is gearing up to run the site?

    The same applies to mining a little ore. It's a mission requirement, deal with it. Hauling around a niche ship would be absurd. Fitting your ship to adapt to the specifics of a site is normal. You're asking CCP to homogenize incursions so every site can be run by warping in and shooting the proper targets in the proper order. There's no other activity in Eve that does that, even missions have unique objectives.

    Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

    Vincent Athena
    #188 - 2012-01-24 21:36:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
    Change the site completion trigger to one requiring all the NPCs to be destroyed. Why would concord want Sansha ships to escape?

    Look at site balance and payout levels, adjusting them so all site types get run.

    For the issue of incursions being killed in a couple of hours by the incursion haters: When Incursions first came out the Sansha influence regenerated quite fast, and no incursions were being completed. CCP dialed the regeneration rate down quite a bit. Then the players learned how to do incursions quickly, but there was no reason to reset the regeneration rate as the players artificially lengthened the lifetime of an incursion.

    Well, now maybe there is a reason. CCP: Adjust the Sansha influence regeneration rate back up, maybe as high as to where it was at deployment. I think a good goal is for a given incursion to last a day or two despite the best efforts to kill it faster.

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    Sturmgrenadier Inc
    Pandemic Horde
    #189 - 2012-01-24 21:45:24 UTC
    More sancha in space!

    Maybe outside the station fighting the sentry guns...not much loot or bounty just sort of a flavor thing.
    Maybe a group of sancha going belt to belt.

    also VG's need to be more dynamic...they are the same everytime and get boring fast.

    Looking for a mature, adult gaming community that has been active in EvE since 2004?Recruitment is open! Come join our public channel and get to know us. SG-Recruiting

    Caldari State
    #190 - 2012-01-24 21:58:37 UTC
    Leave Vanguard payout and LP payouts as is or drop them by 10-15%. Perhaps set a cap on the amount of VG's you can fly in a day. If your capped at 10, or your payout reduces after this figure then it will guide folks into bigger fleets rather than force them.

    Increase the other payouts as its harder to find 20 man fleets than 10.

    Make the LP's more useful.

    Just my two cents.
    Women's cave
    #191 - 2012-01-24 22:30:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Kranyoldlady
    I have seen alot of thoughts on this subject, some more outhere then others. Readng true this whole thread i think there is something to say for everyone here, it is just a matter of persective in the end of the day.
    So i will not bore everyone with how i think we should do this, for the idea's on the changes i had in mind, well we are 10 pages long now, if ccp doesnt get it by now, they never will.

    So my 2 cents then. I run incursions from a carebear stand of things and i do them because its gd money and the time spending fc-ing fleets is what im in a mmo for.
    I like to interact on comms with people and hf in the end of the day, just the carebear incursions runner kind of way, like some poeple in this thread like to do it in a nullsec pvp kind of way.

    I started out as a misson runner and got bored with them so i went incursions. I have to say, its not for every noob that commes along, and no, a drake wont cut it. Mind you i dont run vanguards cause to me, they are boring as hell but the rest i do fc alot.
    When in a fleet with people, night after night, you get to know them as good as one gets to know someone true internet.
    Now so many months later we see the third group show up and mess with us incursionsbears because they can, they dont like the way we farm ( i call bs on that btw, its not like they cant do the same in low or null), or they want to be relected.
    In the end of the day i dont care, Im my book its grieving and i dont care if ccp agrees or not.

    Couple of things they managed to do though, besides beeing dicks.
    The pulled the community even closer, if even that was possible, they got ccp's attention apperantly because here we are.
    So we can we stop it? prolly not. I think we just might as wel go ahead and do what we are good in, even if its on a moment we dont like and call it a day.

    Also my dockter said something about a life away from the computer, might be an idea if we check that out while darius and brick get bored \o/
    Garoun Investment Bank
    Gallente Federation
    #192 - 2012-01-24 22:31:28 UTC
    Lowsec Incursions

    We need more of them
    There's no reason for there to only be one at a time.
    Snuff Box
    #193 - 2012-01-24 22:50:13 UTC
    wallenbergaren wrote:
    Lowsec Incursions

    We need more of them
    There's no reason for there to only be one at a time.


    Snuff Box
    #194 - 2012-01-24 22:51:46 UTC
    Mortvvs wrote:
    wallenbergaren wrote:
    Lowsec Incursions

    We need more of them
    There's no reason for there to only be one at a time.

    BLACKstArprInceSs SkyQuEeN
    #195 - 2012-01-24 22:53:02 UTC
    Mortalaria wrote:
    Mortvvs wrote:
    wallenbergaren wrote:
    Lowsec Incursions

    We need more of them
    There's no reason for there to only be one at a time.

    Isolde Ma Duschen
    #196 - 2012-01-24 22:55:31 UTC
    BLACKstArprInceSs SkyQuEeN wrote:
    Mortalaria wrote:
    Mortvvs wrote:
    wallenbergaren wrote:
    Lowsec Incursions

    We need more of them
    There's no reason for there to only be one at a time.

    Deviana Sevidon
    Jades Falcon Guards
    #197 - 2012-01-24 22:56:26 UTC
    There is no 'fix' since the people in 0.0 cannot be pleased by anything short of: put every incursion in 0.0 and triple the rewards. Sorry about that, but right now the only sensible thing CCP could do is to disband and end the CSM. if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.

    IChooseYou Holdings
    #198 - 2012-01-24 22:59:11 UTC
    Isolde Ma Duschen wrote:
    BLACKstArprInceSs SkyQuEeN wrote:
    Mortalaria wrote:
    Mortvvs wrote:
    wallenbergaren wrote:
    Lowsec Incursions

    We need more of them
    There's no reason for there to only be one at a time.

    #199 - 2012-01-24 23:04:09 UTC
    Mortalaria wrote:
    Mortvvs wrote:
    wallenbergaren wrote:
    Lowsec Incursions

    We need more of them
    There's no reason for there to only be one at a time.

    oh herro

    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #200 - 2012-01-24 23:11:32 UTC
    I think they want more lowsec incursions guys