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Why do i miss certain mission rats?

Shawn Delazar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2017-07-31 16:52:38 UTC
I fly Level 2 Missions with an Omen and that works very well most of the time. The Lasers ( i use focused anode medium particle stream with some navy issue crystals) work very well on almost every rat i encounter.

But sometimes there are ships i do not hit at all (so it seems. It could also be possible that they reflect or mitigate what i shoot at them)

These ships are some of the frigates i encounter in the missions. It's like i am doing no harm and the fights last forever...whether i am attacking only with lasers or also with warrior drones.

As these ships are variations of ships i destroy easily i am not sure if its about the resistance (that would include all ships i encounter i think) or if they just avoid the beams.

The last times that happens it was against a ship called "corelli guard", while every other ship was destroyed fast.

What can i fit into the ship to destroy these ships more quickly?
3Ra Syndicate
#2 - 2017-07-31 17:01:52 UTC
Certain frigates in missions orbit you at high speed and has low signature to boot. This makes it very hard to hit with medium guns. The magic is having a web.

And some of them may be "elites" with T2 resists.

You either need a web or have light drones with you to combat those.

Another way to combat them is shoot them down before they get too close to you and orbit you.
Shawn Delazar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2017-07-31 17:22:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Shawn Delazar
i see that makes sence. but my drones also seem to miss that frigates.

A follow up question: in general do i leave my afterburner on while orbiting the enemy or do i shut it off? (my understanding is, that if i am in a close orbit and have my boost on.. its harder to stay in that orbit but i don't know how that works out ingame)

and another one: do i chose my orbit exactly at the perfect orbit distance (if i set it) or do i take a bit lower to actually have the right distance in fight.
3Ra Syndicate
#4 - 2017-07-31 17:40:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Kosoku
You may need more drone skills. Those frigates are pain in you-know-where to take down for newer players. Those frigates typically web and scram you in level 4.

As for your afterburner question, for cruiser class ships, speed is your primary tanking method. With enough speed, nothing can hit you even in level 4 missions.

Having said that, if your tank is holding fine, you do not need AF on. If you are cap stable though, just keep it turned on. It doesn't hurt to have more speed.

As for your gun optimal question, say if your gun has 10km optimal and 5km fall off, your gun will do full damage within 10km optimal, provided that your gun's tracking can match your target's speed and signature size.

The tracking is the tricky part. If you are dealing with frigates, I'd fight at max optimal at 10km. If you are fighting cruisers or even battleships, any range within 10km will work most of time.

You've experienced the tracking part with the hard-to-kill frigate. if a tiny thing is flying around you fast enough, you can't hit it.

That's true in real life as well. For an example, if a fly flying right around your face, it will be hard to hit. But if it is flying away from you and landed on an object, that's far easier to hit.

Now, if a small dog is somehow flying around your head, I bet you can hit it easily regardless how close it is to your face.

The same principle applies to Eve's gunnery.
Memphis Baas
#5 - 2017-07-31 17:46:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
Each ship has the following attributes:

- size (it's called (radar) signature radius in-game)
- speed / orbit speed (transversal or angular speed)
- range (distance from you)

Each weapon (lasers, hybrids, artillery/projectiles, missiles, drones) has the following attributes:

- size of target that it's intended for (signature resolution)
- tracking (gun and drones rotate, so they track the angular speed of target, missiles track the actual speed of target)
- optimal range (100% damage) + falloff range (50%) + falloff range again (0 damage)

So the range comparison is easy, if the target is too far away, it'll be out of range and the gun will do 0 damage or only a small % of damage.

The tracking / speed comparison is: if the target is moving too fast (for missiles) or orbits at high speed (for guns and drones), then the weapon can't track the target. For missiles, basically the missile can't catch up with the target, and for guns and drones the turrets they have can't rotate fast enough to line up with the target. Because this is a game, the server calculates orbit speeds as if your ship is gyro-stabilized and cannot rotate (as if only the turrets rotate).

The size comparison is an artificial "chance to land a direct hit" type of thing; imagine a battleship shooting the big guns at a small buoy; if the shell lands in the water it will do no damage, if the shell lands on the buoy it will obliterate it. So the big guns can't always land perfect hits because of vibrations and recoil. OOC this means that if a weapon is intended for cruisers (medium weapon) or for battleships (large weapon) or for capital ships (X-Large), that weapon will miss small frigates a lot, even if they stand still. This gives frigates a chance to have a role against big ships (namely, they can jam or tackle the big ships) and it was implemented by CCP specifically for this purpose.

So, basically, if you're in a cruiser with medium weapons, a few things happen:

1. Frigates have a size of about 40m, your weapons have a resolution of 120m, so the frigates get about 50-60% damage reduction just from size. Install a target painter module to make the target appear bigger and thus have the guns do more damage.

2. Frigates with afterburner typically move at 800+ m/s, and if they get close to you, that'll be a very high angular orbit velocity. Either use a webifier to slow them down, or try to keep them as far as possible (at max optimal range of your guns). For drones, train the drone skills to increase the tracking that your drones have; they orbit the target and without skills they don't do very well.

So if you're doing level 2 missions in a cruiser, your tactics should be:

1. Use target painter and/or webifier.
2. Fly in a straight line or stop your ship, to try to get the NPC's to come to you or follow you in a straight line (so they don't orbit).
3. Use "small" weapons (light drones instead of medium drones, rapid light missile launchers, or the "dual" versions of the guns)
Shawn Delazar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2017-07-31 17:49:37 UTC
i love the dog part :) i would never even try to hit it! (cute orbiting dog detected)

Thanks for your answers in detail. I think i new where the problem is. Right now i use imperial navy multifriquenzy crystals. They do more dmg but have a lower range. This is rather bad when i try to hit a fast frigate which approaches orbiting range. I should try to use the crystals which have a better range.
3Ra Syndicate
#7 - 2017-07-31 17:55:42 UTC
Yup, you got the basic principle.

Since you use lasers, you can switch crystals without any delay. So, use radio M to shoot down fast approaching frigates and when they are too close, switch to better damage crystals and orbit at max optimal.

A web helps greatly when a frigate is too close and you can't get it off.

Or light drones.
Shawn Delazar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2017-07-31 17:58:52 UTC
max optimal is the range between falloff and optimal?
3Ra Syndicate
#9 - 2017-07-31 18:01:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Kosoku
Max optimal would be 10km in my example.

Falloff is when gun's ammo loses its effectiveness by 50%. You will still have a chance to hit but at reduced damage. Fighting in falloff is also an option if you can't really hit it at max optimal.

Falloff is complex on its own though. It's not flat 50% reduction.
Shawn Delazar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2017-07-31 18:10:39 UTC
aaah, i see my mistake now. i thought the optimal range was a single point on a scale where everything before and after that point was a decrease in hitting and damaging.

But it just means if i am in a range to that optimal point i hit with 100%. After that point with less.
That counts till a ship is to close for my tracking to hit. (thus the fly and dog example)

So i could nearly hug a big ship with a frigate (orbiting really close) to annoy it :)
3Ra Syndicate
#11 - 2017-07-31 18:16:43 UTC
Yes, you could annoy a player in battleship in a frigate by orbiting fast but he would most likely have a web and drones.

10k optimal would mean 0k to 10km.

5k falloff would mean 10.1km to 15km.

You have a chance to do 100% damage within optimal (bar tracking).
Once you fall into falloff, your damage become reduced. Max reduction is 50% at probably 15km.
Shawn Delazar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2017-07-31 18:25:58 UTC
thx, my new orbiting and weapon changes work like a charm Big smile
3Ra Syndicate
#13 - 2017-07-31 18:27:07 UTC
Have fun and fly dangerous.
Sara Starbuck
Adamantine Creations
#14 - 2017-07-31 19:27:14 UTC
Remember that targets closer to you have higher angular speeds hurting your tracking more at close ranges. Math on shooting small fast moving ships is pretty complicated. I guess on lasers you want to be pretty close to the optimal since they dont really have any real falloff, on hybrids and especially projectiles you may get better results shooting even outside your optimal.
Also you have to remember the difference on tracking on the different types of turrets.

pyfa fitting tool for example has this nice graphing tool, EFT too but i think its not developed anymore.
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2017-08-01 02:17:08 UTC

The above link is an interactive tracking guide for Eve gunnery. It is a good intro to the basics of gunnery in Eve.

You've been given most of the info that you need already but I will attempt to summarize in a few words some of the more important points:

Optimal is the range within which you will not have any reduction in damage due to range.

Falloff is the range past optimal at which you do half damage.

Damage is reduced for range beyond optimal. At optimal + falloff damage is reduced by 50% and at optimal + two times falloff damage is reduced by 100%. At optimal + half of falloff damage is reduced by 25% etc... The damage reduction calculation is just one calculation among several that are done to determine what, if any, damage is done when you fire from a turret.

The tracking speed of a turret is rated for a ship with the same size signature radius as the turret's signature resolution. Turrets track faster against ships with larger signature radius's than the turrets signature resolution and slower against ships with smaller signature radius's. This is why speed tanking is sometimes called signature radius tanking or just sig tanking. This means that a small ship like a frigate can easily stay "under the guns" of a large ship like a battleship. Staying under the guns essentially means being close enough and moving fast enough to not take any damage.

The above link is Agony Unleashed's tracking and spiralling video. CCP has changed the way that turret's tracking speed is displayed since the making of this video but the math behind the new numbers is still the same so these concepts still apply.

Eve uni has some good information on turrets and tracking and damage application. If you want to know a lot of information on tracking and gunnery I'd do some searches on the Eve Uni wiki around those keywords and read up.

Your piloting affects not only your opponents tracking but also your own. This means how you pilot your ship is important to how you apply damage. When going up against small ships in medium ships ( like a cruiser ) you may need to web the frigates or fly either towards or away from the NPCs so that they either try to fly at you or from you, which they typically do in a strait line. This keeps their radial and transversal velocities low so that your guns hit well.

One strategy for using a cruiser in missions with a lot of small ships is to use long range guns and ammo and stay well out of range of the frigates so not only can they do no damage to you but they also will run strait towards you thus allowing you to do great damage to them. This is often called sniping and piloting this way can sometimes allow you to get rid of some tanking mods and replace them with range, tracking, and / or damage mods.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

United Allegiance of Undesirables
#16 - 2017-08-01 12:48:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
Kosoku wrote:
As for your afterburner question, for cruiser class ships, speed is your primary tanking method. With enough speed, nothing can hit you even in level 4 missions.

From a damage mitigation perspective an AB or MWD on a cruiser is essentially useless in level 1 and 2 missions, with mostly frigate and destroyer class NPC their small sized guns will hit you anyway. On the other hand as a tool tool to teach valuable skills for other aspects of the game or for trying level 4 missions in smaller ships they do have some value.

I have never found a ship fast enough to outrun ALL damage in level 4 missions AND have enough damage output to kill the things you need to kill in anything that resembles a reasonable amount of time (less than 2 hours per mission). So while it is true that with enough speed nothing can hit you it is also true that any ship capable of that much speed lacks the damage output needed to be able to complete the missions so there is always a trade off to these things.

Kosoku wrote:
If you are cap stable though, just keep it turned on. It doesn't hurt to have more speed.

This can be a terrible thing to do since increasing your speed magnifies the tracking problems associated with small targets and medium size guns. Much better idea to learn to pulse the AB / MWD to close range and then turn it off to aide tracking.

OP they were mentioned above but 5 light drones is the best answer to your problems with those pesky frigates.
Train the skill drones to level 5 will allow for 5 drones in space, for now that should be enough. AS you progress you will need some of the additional drones support skills so look into those and plan them into your training.