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[:ugh:] Alphas and Omegas thoughts
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Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#21 - 2017-07-24 18:58:35 UTC
Valeria Toralen wrote:
Scialt wrote:
Valeria Toralen wrote:
Scialt wrote:
[quote=Valeria Toralen]

Well... as another returning player it did work for me.

I logged in and started playing... and I remembered how fun a game it was. But I was limited because I couldn't fly my better ships. So I resubbed.

It reminded me enough of what I liked to get me to subscribe. I lasted about a week as an alpha.

However that's not a new player. THe new player issues are different... and to be honest being gimped isn't obvious for a new player until after they've played for longer than the 2 week trial period Eve had before. The problem I see is that alphas aren't reaching the point where they are actually significantly stopped from in game activities from their alpha status. And that comes more from lack of accessible content.

Most players who are coming to Eve for the first time are used to storyline missions taking them through the game until you reach an "end game". LOTRO, SWTOR, WoW... whatever. It's the standard model. Eve doesn't have an end game... but having a bit more story/epic-arc missions which draw players into the game (preferably with voice acting like the tutorial has) would possibly help to get players to reach the point where they see that they're gimped and look at subbing.

The topic you started was about the alpha/omega system drawing new players (hopefully subscribing ones). My point was simply that new player content is what was missing to cause that to happen.

Capturing returning players is a bit different animal. As I said... it worked really well at that from my perspective as I resubbed my two accounts. But that could just be me.

"Well... as another returning player it did work for me." Really glad for you. The thing is, you would probably resubbed anyway, since "It reminded me enough of what I liked". More aggressive marketing campaign would pretty much do the same thing as this new payment scheme and would much likely cost less.

" The problem I see is that alphas aren't reaching the point where they are actually significantly stopped from in game activities from their alpha status" Can you name one prof in which alpha can become good at? Not barely manageble, but good, to justify paying sub fee and investing time in game?

"Most players who are coming to Eve for the first time are used to storyline missions" And again, I'm not talking about EVE story line, missions, etc their quality or quantity. I'm talking about payment system.




You missed a point or two in this. My point with Alphas "not reaching the point" where they are stopped is the majority of alpha players are lost in game and quite before they advance far enough to hit any barriers. It isn't that they hit a barrier and quit... they quit because there's nothing feeding them into the game like they're used to.

The payment system isn't what is stopping them. The fact that they don't have an idea what to do next after the tutorial and career agent missions is stopping them. They're quitting after a few weeks... not at the point they reach a skill barrier.

Eve's early game kind of sucks. The tutorial is solid now... but that is the last voice acting you see. The career missions are super easy and have a storyline... which is good. But they don't feed you into the SOE epic arc. You have to ask to find out about that. And after the SOE... you get repetitive missions or mining.

I might agree with you if Eve's population started decreasing after 3-4 months when new alpha's started getting trained up. It happened in less than a month though. That's not the sign of hitting a barrier.

Eve's problem with getting new players isn't about it's subscription methods. It's lack of content early in the game. You're addressing the wrong problem.



" they are stopped is the majority of alpha players are lost in game and quite before they advance far enough to hit any barriers"
I had a mining barge and a transport before I quit in 2012. Took me about 2 weeks to get those iirc. Now I can't use them. That's really nothing big, simple barge and transport. Not a strip miner, not blockade runer, etc. Simply things. Just for newbies. Now I can't use them. Anyone really expect someone to go and "dig thar ore" with civilian laser and transport on a frigate?

"The payment system isn't what is stopping them" It stopped me. I wasn't feeling like paying for eve and I quit. I can consider playing for free with limitations but not in this state where I'm practically told "we don't like you kind here".

That's why I'm asking why such system was chosen, why not some other? Heck, why even change payment system? So PR could make a flashy ad saying "Play for free"(if your self esteem is hitting floor)?


You are a returning player. As I said... it's a different conversation than a new player.

If all skills were unlocked, at alpha training speeds it would take about 3 weeks to get into a mining barge (with no drone skills or support skills to go with it). about 10-11 days at omega training speeds). I honestly don't think most alphas make it 3 weeks. I also don't think they go directly for the mining path all that often. As it is... using a venture with a miasmos is a whole lot easier than the early mining I remember with my mining osprey using standard haulers. Quiet honestly I'm jealous that new players get the Venture.

For a returning player... you have two options if you want the gameplay you're used to back. Grind plex (free from real world cost, but time intensive) or buy a sub. And you have an unlimited amount of time to get the isk necessary for 500 plex... instead of two weeks.
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#22 - 2017-07-24 19:00:43 UTC
Valeria Toralen wrote:
Scialt wrote:
On another note... the main thing that makes Eve truly Free-to-Play is the ability to use plex to get Omega status.

Effectively, you just have to grind out enough isk to get 500 plex each month. For all the limitations of alpha clones... nothing prevents you from earning the isk necessary to pay for your omega status with Plex. And if you play somewhat actively, you can probably get there before you run out of alpha skills to train.

The problem is the early game is not really something that makes people want to make that sort of effort.


"is the ability to use plex to get Omega status"
Back in the days, when grass was greener and sun was shinier, plex could be used to pay for pilot licence. Plex cost was around 600m isk, so nothing new here.



Yes, but you now have an unlimited amount of time to earn the isk to buy gametime... not 2 weeks. And that truly does make the game free to play.

Plex didn't exist back in 2009 when I originally quit. So "back in the days" means something a bit different to me. :)
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#23 - 2017-07-24 19:05:55 UTC


Also... in regards to the concept of not being able to keep omega skills once you drop back to alpha...

there is actually a way around this.

It's not something newer players would necessarily know about... but if you are okay with not advancing your skills further but playing with the skills you have right now, you can pretty much pay for your account each month with skill point farming. You won't advance any skills, but you'll be an omega and be able to use all the skills you currently have and play the full game while not paying any real world money. And as the price tracks directly with plex... you're not really going to be hurt at all by fluctuations in plex prices.
Valeria Toralen
Phoenix Private Joint Stock Company
#24 - 2017-07-24 19:06:18 UTC
Scialt wrote:


You are a returning player. As I said... it's a different conversation than a new player.

If all skills were unlocked, at alpha training speeds it would take about 3 weeks to get into a mining barge (with no drone skills or support skills to go with it). about 10-11 days at omega training speeds). I honestly don't think most alphas make it 3 weeks. I also don't think they go directly for the mining path all that often. As it is... using a venture with a miasmos is a whole lot easier than the early mining I remember with my mining osprey using standard haulers. Quiet honestly I'm jealous that new players get the Venture.

For a returning player... you have two options if you want the gameplay you're used to back. Grind plex (free from real world cost, but time intensive) or buy a sub. And you have an unlimited amount of time to get the isk necessary for 500 plex... instead of two weeks.


Yeh, exactly my point. I don't want to pay sub. I may pay occasionally, when I have time and energy to play EVE for more than a couple hours a week, but I simply won't pay fee on monthly basis.

And for grinding plexes, I didn't have such amount of spare time even back at 2012.

That's the whole reason I even started that topic. Why go ftp, invest money in development, PR, and than just botch it with a simple trial mask at best.
Valeria Toralen
Phoenix Private Joint Stock Company
#25 - 2017-07-24 19:11:26 UTC
Scialt wrote:


Also... in regards to the concept of not being able to keep omega skills once you drop back to alpha...

there is actually a way around this.

It's not something newer players would necessarily know about... but if you are okay with not advancing your skills further but playing with the skills you have right now, you can pretty much pay for your account each month with skill point farming. You won't advance any skills, but you'll be an omega and be able to use all the skills you currently have and play the full game while not paying any real world money. And as the price tracks directly with plex... you're not really going to be hurt at all by fluctuations in plex prices.


Dude, even plex farming on veldspar looks good compared to this route:-)
Not to mention that you'll have to spend around 300m isk on harvester and have above 5.5m skillpoints
Cypherous
Liberty Rogues
Aprilon Dynasty
#26 - 2017-07-24 19:16:57 UTC
Valeria Toralen wrote:

Your post isn't an offtopic how? Or you think that 1(one) new player is all that it takes to justify choosing such payment system?


Well, if its 1 more player than they would have had then yes, i would deem it a success, if they had lost players rather than gaining them then that would fit your statement, i mean 1 new player shows that the system is doing what it was designed to do which was to encourage new people to play :P
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#27 - 2017-07-24 19:31:36 UTC
Valeria Toralen wrote:
Scialt wrote:


Also... in regards to the concept of not being able to keep omega skills once you drop back to alpha...

there is actually a way around this.

It's not something newer players would necessarily know about... but if you are okay with not advancing your skills further but playing with the skills you have right now, you can pretty much pay for your account each month with skill point farming. You won't advance any skills, but you'll be an omega and be able to use all the skills you currently have and play the full game while not paying any real world money. And as the price tracks directly with plex... you're not really going to be hurt at all by fluctuations in plex prices.


Dude, even plex farming on veldspar looks good compared to this route:-)
Not to mention that you'll have to spend around 300m isk on harvester and have above 5.5m skillpoints


You can get to 5m sp or in the vicinity as an alpha clone. So you'd be right at the point where you could train 500K sp and extract them.

The cost is almost dead even.

500 plex to sub an account = 1.7b

1 month of sp training 3.88 injectors

3.88 extractors = 1.5b

Total cost - 3.2b

3.88 injectors = 3.1b

More than likely, the 100m difference is due to the rate plex is increasing. Injector price will rise in the next week to match. Even if you don't use +5 implants, you should still be able to make enough in PI to cover any difference. And you have a character who doesn't advance who's able to use all the skills they have... the exact same as if an Alpha could use whatever omega skills they trained as an omega.

Skill extraction basically pays for plexing an account (give or take a few hundred million). If you do that on an account with all three characters with lvl 4 PI skills (and don't mind the time spend managing PI)... you can probably get another 1-1.5 billion in PI income on top of that per account.

Some people do a LOT of this. One guy in my corp has 16 accounts, with only 3 of them NOT skill farming. He said he logs in for maybe an 30 minutes each month per account to handle all the maintenance for that stuff. 8 hours for 16-24b isk? Sounds good... but I'm a little too lazy for that.
Memphis Baas
#28 - 2017-07-24 22:07:58 UTC
Cypherous wrote:
Well, if its 1 more player than they would have had then yes, i would deem it a success, if they had lost players rather than gaining them then that would fit your statement, i mean 1 new player shows that the system is doing what it was designed to do which was to encourage new people to play :P


That's the best part of this whole argument; I linked the eve-offline logins meter and she didn't take a look at it. She's arguing semantics ("0, 1, whatever single digits number I may have is still 0") when in fact they had a jump from 35k to 50k, the EVE logins almost ******* doubled as a direct result of them introducing Alpha. But no, it "clearly" had no effect, and it's page 2 of this thread and she's still wondering "why" like a 3-year-old.
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