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Rattlesnake Mission Fit and strategy
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Stephen Mctowelieee
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2017-06-27 16:15:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Stephen Mctowelieee
Hi folks!

I wanted to get a sense of what everyone's thoughts are on this fit and mission strategy. I seem to only be getting 1-2 lvl 4 missions per hour, which to me seems a bit slow. I don't blitz: I kill everything in the pocket before moving on, regardless of the mission requirements. I don't salvage unless there is good reason (lots of BS wrecks or notable loot like tags). I return in my Noctis if need be. It's not often at all that I salvage so I don't bother including that in the time.

Please note: I did a search but there's really nothing applicable, and nothing new, that I was able to find.

Anyways, generally I drop into the pocket, manage aggro and pick the groups apart one by one. I will generally aggro the next group early so as to keep things rolling. I'm never without a target to shoot at. I don't generally move around until I'm on the last group, or until I think I can take out the remaining targets with my Gecko and missiles while moving. Otherwise, I rely on my Sentries and Missiles.

I use a passive shield tank that I can adapt. My norm is 1400+ DPS but I can reduce that for shield power relays if I'm worried about tank. The lowest I go is generally 1100+ DPS.

I keep the fit mostly T2 to avoid potential gankers.

[Low Slot]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldary Navy Shield Power Relay
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

[Mid Slot]
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II ---- Tracking or Optimal Range depending
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
500mn Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive

[High Slot]
Cruise Missile Launcher II
Cruise Missile Launcher II
Cruise Missile Launcher II
Cruise Missile Launcher II
Cruise Missile Launcher II
Drone Link Augmentor II

[Rig Slot]
Large Core Defense Field Purger II
Large Core Defense Field Purger II
Large Core Defense Field Purger II

[Drone Bay]
1x Gecko
2x Warde II
5x Hobgoblin II
1x Hornet EC-300
1x Hornet EC-600
1x Hornet EC-900


Note: all skills required to fly and use all modules are at lvl 5.

I have the Hornets, again, in case of ganking, or if I get scrammed by a frigate that just won't die. The Hobgoblins were put in because there have been a couple of times when the Gecko just couldn't get the job done on an elite frigate.

I always use race-specific hardeners, missiles and Sentries. I usually just keep the Hobs in because it's rare that I need them.

If the mission is not expected to draw a lot of shield, I will drop the CN Shield Power Relay for another CN Ballistic Control System. If the mission is expected to draw a lot of shields, I will drop a Drone Damage Amplifier II for a CN Shield Power Relay (so as to have 2 of each low slot module).

I try to ensure that most missions I am losing shields down to 50% or so by the time I'm done the pocket, so I know I have just the right amount of tank where I'm not worried. I run out of a mission hub that provides all types of missions, so not mostly one or another type of pirate races.

Any help is much appreciated. Again, I'm wanting to increase the number of lvl 4s achievable in an hour. I usually get 1-2, depending on the mission.
Flharfh Lhar
Sasquatch Control Bureau
#2 - 2017-06-28 18:55:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Flharfh Lhar
I think an active tank is going to be more efficient for l4s because you don't need to devote as many slots to tank. There is no reason you should be devoting 9 total slots to tank modules. 1400 dps tank is far beyond overkill in l4s.

Try an MJD sniper fit with sentries perhaps? You don't need much tank there and can devote many mid-slots to TPs or omnis.
Atomeon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2017-06-28 19:17:22 UTC
Flharfh Lhar wrote:
I think an active tank is going to be more efficient for l4s because you don't need to devote as many slots to tank. There is no reason you should be devoting 9 total slots to tank modules. 1400 dps tank is far beyond overkill in l4s.

Try an MJD sniper fit with sentries perhaps? You don't need much tank there and can devote many mid-slots to TPs or omnis.

The problem with that is the expensive purgers Big smile
Stephen Mctowelieee
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2017-06-28 19:31:39 UTC
Flharfh Lhar wrote:
I think an active tank is going to be more efficient for l4s because you don't need to devote as many slots to tank. There is no reason you should be devoting 9 total slots to tank modules. 1400 dps tank is far beyond overkill in l4s.

Try an MJD sniper fit with sentries perhaps? You don't need much tank there and can devote many mid-slots to TPs or omnis.



Thank you muchly for your response!

The 1400+dps is my damage output. No idea what the DPS is that I can tank incoming, but like I said, I make sure that my shields are sitting at around 50% after the pocket is cleared.

I tried the sniper fit and I loved it. The problem was this: when I got to a Guristas mish, they were picking me off at my max range. I wasn't able to clear the pocket without having to warp out a couple of times. Now that was all fine and dandy when I was running a Drake back in the day, but I didn't think a battleship should ever have to warp out of a lvl 4, especially when I have max skills.

Anyways, so the other problem I had with the MJD snipe was MJDing all the bloody time. That takes time: you MJD to range, blow the pocket, then MJD back to gate. When you jump through the gate, you need your MJD so you have to wait before going through the gate for your MJD to charge back up. Sometimes I could swing it so that I could MJD to gate while some of the pocket is still being cleared, but if not, it just took far too long.

Finally, I found with the snipe fit that it was not adaptable. Meaning, if I needed to tank up for a Gurista mission, that involved removing a ton of damage mods. My DPS output dropped drastically, so my mish/hour dropped drastically.


I suppose I could mish somewhere where there are no Guristas, but I still found the MJDing to take up precious time. With this fit, I've constantly got my drones and missiles going, and it's adaptable with a few quick tweaks. Pretty straightforward which removes the planning aspect, which cuts time.

My main goal is to maximise my time, but I just don't think, judging by what others say, that my rate of missions is where it should be. But again, I can't see what I'm doing wrong... I've got anywhere between 1100 to 1400 dps; frigs (even elite) are usually one shot sentry kills, the MWD gets me to gates, and Missiles pop the BS, BC and sometimes cruisers and the drones take care of the rest, all at the same time.

If the problem was application, I could see that, but I don't know how much quicker I can pop frigs and BSes...

Now you mention 9 slots devoted to tank. I definitely get that because that was one of my considerations, but like I say, when I had to run Gurista missions, because the 3 rig slots were taken up with damage modifying rigs, I had to devote the same number of lows/mediums to get a somewhat decent tank that was not close to cap stable so was vulnerable. I think 3 cap power relays, 2 cap rechargers, X-L booster (which caused other fitting issues, so I preferred a large with two shield boost amps) and 2 hardeners. Then my dps and range dropped and those distance modifiers were pretty much useless anyways. Basically, the DPS and tank were lower than what I get with this fit, and the Help Channel and fittings I found online were also not as good.




Atomeon wrote:
Flharfh Lhar wrote:
I think an active tank is going to be more efficient for l4s because you don't need to devote as many slots to tank. There is no reason you should be devoting 9 total slots to tank modules. 1400 dps tank is far beyond overkill in l4s.

Try an MJD sniper fit with sentries perhaps? You don't need much tank there and can devote many mid-slots to TPs or omnis.

The problem with that is the expensive purgers Big smile


I definitely agree. It would hurt so much to destroy those, but if need be I would contract the hull with the rigs and start from scratch once it sold... if it sold What?
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#5 - 2017-06-29 15:18:43 UTC
i would go active tank and minimize tank slots missile application is lacking(as in none) and drone application is barely there,

purchased ships few months back but did not setup clones for intended chars as of yet so cant really offer hard tested fit but i tend to use one or two slot tank if possible then focus on dmg and application to help me bulldoze thru missions.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
The Bigpuns
United Standings Improvement Agency
#6 - 2017-06-29 15:39:11 UTC
Stephen Mctowelieee wrote:

Please note: I did a search but there's really nothing applicable, and nothing new, that I was able to find.


Really? Where did you search? Cos you have come up with the most generic passive fit going.

If you were struggling with tank in an rs against guristas, I would love to see that fit. My rs has a lsb, one hardener, and a dc, and tanks all missions without warp out. Admittedly, the lsb is gist xtype, and a c type hardener, but still...
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#7 - 2017-06-29 16:33:24 UTC
Stephen Mctowelieee wrote:
My main goal is to maximise my time, but I just don't think, judging by what others say, that my rate of missions is where it should be. But again, I can't see what I'm doing wrong... I've got anywhere between 1100 to 1400 dps; frigs (even elite) are usually one shot sentry kills, the MWD gets me to gates, and Missiles pop the BS, BC and sometimes cruisers and the drones take care of the rest, all at the same time.

should probably try blitzing then, sure a snake can do a ton of dps, but it's mobility sucks, and full clearing takes a lot of time by definition.

the tank only makes sense if you have connection problems, or are trying to afk missions, or something like that. An active burst tank is sufficient for missions, and far more slot efficient. Typically on most ships I run a booster, 2 hardeners, and a cap injector. Heck on my rattler I run a pithum c-type medium booster and 2 invluns. With the high dps, massive shield buffer, and resist bonus it hardly needs a tank. and that gives me room for 2 omnis and a target painter.

with MJD tanking you still need some tank, and have to know the missions well enough to be able to MJD early enough that your MJD will be off cooldown the next time you need it. And vs guristas it should be pretty easy to refit mostly kinetic resists to mitigate that missile damage.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Stephen Mctowelieee
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2017-07-04 19:20:40 UTC
The Bigpuns wrote:
Stephen Mctowelieee wrote:

Please note: I did a search but there's really nothing applicable, and nothing new, that I was able to find.


Really? Where did you search? Cos you have come up with the most generic passive fit going.

If you were struggling with tank in an rs against guristas, I would love to see that fit. My rs has a lsb, one hardener, and a dc, and tanks all missions without warp out. Admittedly, the lsb is gist xtype, and a c type hardener, but still...



I tried searching in this sub-forum for my specific issue. I should have gone a bit more general with my query. As is quoted by Chainsaw Plankton, my goal is not to get feedback on my fit, but to determine what it is I am doing wrong, keeping in mind my goal to maximise my isk-making time while using the fit that I posted.

I think my issue is more in terms of strategy; I have never had anyone really show me what it means to rip through missions or successfully active tank. I approach missions with the mindset of not losing or risking the loss of my ship due to pilot error or connectivity issues; that resulted in the posted fit that, oddly enough as you point out is indeed the most generic passive fit going (I took a long time to come up with that.. should have just come and visited here!). I basically wanted to make my fit idiot-proof.




Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Stephen Mctowelieee wrote:
My main goal is to maximise my time, but I just don't think, judging by what others say, that my rate of missions is where it should be. But again, I can't see what I'm doing wrong... I've got anywhere between 1100 to 1400 dps; frigs (even elite) are usually one shot sentry kills, the MWD gets me to gates, and Missiles pop the BS, BC and sometimes cruisers and the drones take care of the rest, all at the same time.

should probably try blitzing then, sure a snake can do a ton of dps, but it's mobility sucks, and full clearing takes a lot of time by definition.

the tank only makes sense if you have connection problems, or are trying to afk missions, or something like that. An active burst tank is sufficient for missions, and far more slot efficient. Typically on most ships I run a booster, 2 hardeners, and a cap injector. Heck on my rattler I run a pithum c-type medium booster and 2 invluns. With the high dps, massive shield buffer, and resist bonus it hardly needs a tank. and that gives me room for 2 omnis and a target painter.

with MJD tanking you still need some tank, and have to know the missions well enough to be able to MJD early enough that your MJD will be off cooldown the next time you need it. And vs guristas it should be pretty easy to refit mostly kinetic resists to mitigate that missile damage.



With this in mind, I went in to do a true trial run blitz-a-thon. I found that I was running on average 4 missions per hour, pulling in on average 25 million isk per hour (sometimes 20, sometimes 30). I did this for about 4 hours. Because of blitzing, I dropped the last shield power relay and put in a Missile Guidance Enhance II. Thought about just running one Adaptive Invulnerability Field II and putting another Omnidirectional Tracking Link or a scripted Missile Guidance Computer II with the Precision script. That would bring my defensive modules down to 7.

I will do a bit more research and determine if my isk/hour for missions is on par at this point, but it is definitely an improvement.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#9 - 2017-07-05 13:50:27 UTC
Sniper fits listed would die quickly if you used them in a brawler type scenario.
Brawler fist would take for ever to kill a pocket if flown as a sniper.
Cruise missiles are great for a sniper fit, not so good for a brawler.
Sentry drones are excellent for sniping, not so good for a brawler.
Passive tanking has advantages over active despite having to use more slots, if nothing else there is one less thing to watch.
Could go on for days, all of this as a way of saying there is no such thing a single best fit.
Even if someone can prove that a specific fit is better than something else, that "better" fit is worthless if it does not fit with your game play / mission style or you do not enjoy flying the ship with that fit.

OP, looking at your fit as listed.
Shield extenders are great but not specifically the best way to get a solid tank. Use a fit tool and look into changing one or two of the extenders for for Shield Recharger II's. Most likely your tank DPS will go up and allow you to use one of those three slots for something else.
Stephen Mctowelieee
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2017-07-05 15:35:29 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Sniper fits listed would die quickly if you used them in a brawler type scenario.
Brawler fist would take for ever to kill a pocket if flown as a sniper.
Cruise missiles are great for a sniper fit, not so good for a brawler.
Sentry drones are excellent for sniping, not so good for a brawler.
Passive tanking has advantages over active despite having to use more slots, if nothing else there is one less thing to watch.
Could go on for days, all of this as a way of saying there is no such thing a single best fit.
Even if someone can prove that a specific fit is better than something else, that "better" fit is worthless if it does not fit with your game play / mission style or you do not enjoy flying the ship with that fit.

OP, looking at your fit as listed.
Shield extenders are great but not specifically the best way to get a solid tank. Use a fit tool and look into changing one or two of the extenders for for Shield Recharger II's. Most likely your tank DPS will go up and allow you to use one of those three slots for something else.




Thank you for your feedback!

When I put this fit together in EFT and in "combat," adding the extenders gave me a far better recharge rate (and added a nice buffer tank as well) than adding Shield Recharger IIs in the mids. I thought that was odd so I looked into it.

As far as I understand it, Recharge Time is a constant; increasing the Shield HP increases the Recharge Rate to maintain the Recharge Time; Extenders did this better than the Rechargers, both in EFT and in practice.
Further, there is no stacking penalty to extenders, and the negative of the extenders (increased signature radius) is a non-issue on a battleship, while the hit to my capacitor recharge caused by the Shield Rechargers is an issue because I like to keep my capacitor as efficient as I possibly can in case I need to run the MWD for an extended period to burn to the gate.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#11 - 2017-07-06 15:56:41 UTC
Somewhat related discussion on the new forums: https://meta.eveonline.com/t/what-are-your-favorite-idiot-proof-mission-setups/8374 Has a few rattlesnake posts already.

I'd guess there are some blitz videos on youtube, but I haven't really ever looked for them so not sure of the quality but if you are curious I'd go look. Also eve-survival lists the blitzes for missions. Typically you need to kill a specific ship or group to complete most missions and eve-survival will tell you what to hit. For The Assault you only need to kill the far group in the last room and the gates aren't locked so you can just ignore everything but the last few ships and complete the mission very quickly. Or with Stop the Thief you warp in, kill the BS, and then kill Shadow and go back to station where you already have a stash of reports (can buy them very cheaply on the market)

and then active tanking isn't too bad imo just need to balance shield and cap. Full cap low shields boost, full shields low cap turn off the booster. low cap and low shields, use the cap booster. The problem is if you aren't used to it, you can forget to turn it on or off, or misuse cap charges, and then you can get into a bad spot. Cap stable tanking is a lot like passive tanking. only you boost your cap regen instead of shield regen, and use that extra to run the shield booster to keep the shields topped off. I ran cap stable for a long time, Then I started playing with active cap boosted setups and realized just how often I didn't even need to run my booster.

I try to average around 8-10 missions/hr. The standard blitz missions and frigate burner missions should average about 6 mins, and the burner bases are a little longer but pay out more isk. This involves using high faction standings to decline many standard missions that don't pay out well. Using a rattler should be fine overall, but you might not get as high

and yes adding hardeners or LSE is typically better than adding shield rechargers. Shield rechargers aren't in the greatest spot, I think there is one or two setups where they become better than an LSE or Hardener. Rattlesnake has enough base shield HP that it can be better than a LSE. but you have to be on your 5th midslot, and there I'd still take another LSE for the extra buffer and bigger recharge zone over a single digit better peak recharge. I'd consider the shield recharger on the 6th midslot, but that only leaves one open for utility.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#12 - 2017-07-08 16:56:23 UTC
Stephen Mctowelieee wrote:
When I put this fit together in EFT and in "combat," adding the extenders gave me a far better recharge rate (and added a nice buffer tank as well) than adding Shield Recharger IIs in the mids. I thought that was odd so I looked into it.

As far as I understand it, Recharge Time is a constant; increasing the Shield HP increases the Recharge Rate to maintain the Recharge Time; Extenders did this better than the Rechargers, both in EFT and in practice.
Further, there is no stacking penalty to extenders, and the negative of the extenders (increased signature radius) is a non-issue on a battleship, while the hit to my capacitor recharge caused by the Shield Rechargers is an issue because I like to keep my capacitor as efficient as I possibly can in case I need to run the MWD for an extended period to burn to the gate.

Interesting.
Some notes before I go on, this fit and numbers was put together in EvE HQ, I do not have EFT or PYFA currently installed and I know that EvE HQ is out of date so these may not be accurate.

I used a character with all skills set to level 5 but no implants.

Damage output is not affected by any changes and depends on the drones you are using however with Garde II and inferno fury T2 cruise missiles it is a little under 1,050 dps.

Yes this fit could be changed and would be better if dedicated to either sniping or to brawling, however it does fit well with my mission style that has me in as many brawling situations as it does sniping.

No there is not a prop mod, I always full clear loot and salvage each pocket using two characters. The rattle kills it all and then slow boats to the next gate while I am salvaging / looting the pocket so the speed is not needed.

T2 Ppurgers would improve this fit, however T1 work well and they tend to hold the total cost of the fit down allowing me to use the faction resist mods which works better for me.

No I do not use the omni-directiojnal tracking links or the drone navigation computer.
Omni is about worthless for missions, choosing the proper drones is all you need to handle the tracking side. Keeping your drones at appropriate ranges means the optimal and fall off bonuses have very little affect. Yes if you are one of those who tries to use heavies or Gecko for frigates you will need the omni, even with the boost from the omni these larger drones will not kill the small stuff any faster than the lights or mediums would anyway so why bother. If you keep drones at appropriate ranges there is never more than a few seconds difference at most between using or not using the navigation computer and if you are that anally retentive about time in a mission you should not be flying a rattle anyway there are other ships that would be significantly faster.
With that out of the way here we go with the fit.

[Rattlesnake, General Missions]

Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II

Shield Recharger II
Shield Recharger II
Shield Recharger II
Large Shield Extender II
Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pith A-Type EM Ward Field
Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Core Defense Field Purger I
Large Core Defense Field Purger I
Large Core Defense Field Purger I

Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Garde II x2
Warden II x2

Numbers as listed
Cap - 1 hour 20 minutes
EHP - 130,775
Tank omni damage - 961dps

Changing the rechargers for 3 additional extenders
Cap 1 hour 20 minutes 48 seconds
EHP = 179,373
Tank omni damage - 890dps

Again my preferences but 130k ehp is more than enough to challenge the alpha strike ability of the gank squads.
The up close and personal aspects of some missions with this fit make the extra tank far more valuable than the additional ehp.
Again the mobility loss because no prop mod is not relevant to me because full clear and loot salvage, and even with an MWD you are not going to outrun a gank squad anyway.
Slan Slacker
Doomheim
#13 - 2017-07-10 11:33:10 UTC
I have built so many rattlesnakes over the years and there are many ways to skin the cat. Nowadays I use rapid heavy missile launchers brawler style and use gecko for close up and sentries for more distance. MWD is fit as well. I have an expensive active tank (3 mids + 2 rigs) but all other slots are for damage application. I make 55m / hour running level 4 missions killing everything and converting LP around 1800-2000 lp/isk. I don't skip any missions. Remember the Rattlesnake has no damage application bonuses, so you need to add them with modules. omnidirectional tracking computers/enhancers, missile guidence computers/enhancers, target painters, navigation computers, etc. Your passive tank is using all those slots.
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#14 - 2017-07-24 08:37:43 UTC
Rattlesnakes are nice but a lot of their DPS is on paper only.

I use a Snake in C3s (RHML with ~1300 DPS) and a Pulse Legion with 600-700 DPS can clear a site in a similar time (1-2 Minutes longer) despite having 50% of the DPS.