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Stop CCP from killing the PVP Drake

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Sashi Serakhoi
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2012-01-24 14:29:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Sashi Serakhoi
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
You act like a winmatar nerf isn't on the cards at all. There are a fair few OP ships in this game, but CCP can only tackle so much at once - and a simple, easy rebalance to one ship is a lot easier than going over an entire race.

The Drake is overpowered for one simple reason: it can pack DPS, tank and range into one fit with no sacrifices.
Winmatar are overpowered for a vast multitude of reasons and will need more time to be properly looked over.

Quote:
I suppose if it was more clear what the _reason_ to make any changes at all were then it might seem less concerning.

^ See above.

I've also yet to see anyone refute my point that this change is, at worst, a minor nerf and at best something of a buff. The Drake still has an excellent tank, and is now far more flexible than it was.

Another thing people quoting kill statistics tend to overlook, is that you can't just look at the Drake in the context of most-used ships - you need to look at how it compares to other battlecruisers.
As soon as you do that, it starts ringing some major alarm bells.


Nope that didn't convince me either. 13 Winmatar in top 20 vs 3 Caldari, 1 Gallente and 3 Amarr (is that right?) . . . . hmmm where is the overpowered faction in this set of numbers?

My main here is Minmatar, but then I have toons of all ethnicities, so I'm not arguing from the standpoint of "what I want for my toon" so much as, an interest to see the game thrive in general, and provide players with toons of all ethnicities a broad range of balanced opportunities for fun = more dynamic and interesting game = more players = more fun for all of us.

With a 13 : 3 : 3 : 1 ratio of Min : Cald : Amarr : Gall ship types in the top 20, I can honestly just see no clear reason to make any changes to anything except Minmatar (e.g., reduce DAM on all projectile weapons by 5% across the board??), and especially not changes that involve any form of weakening any of the other ethnicities ships.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#42 - 2012-01-24 14:36:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Sigh. I really am going to have to start using smaller words in these explanations.

So let's get this straight - according to you, the Drake doesn't need nerfing because... there are more ships of other races on a list?
I mean never mind the fact that the Rifter is on there because it's overused, not overpowered? Or the fact that Drakes are used in enormous blobs in ways most of the Minmatar ships on there realistically can't?
No sane person would deny Minmatar is OP, but that doesn't mean they have an absolute monopoly on OP ships. Hint: one happens to be Caldari, and happens to be easier to deal with than an entire race.

And I'll repeat these points because all you've done is blathered on about the flawed statistics in the OP rather than even trying to answer them:

Quote:
I've also yet to see anyone refute my point that this change is, at worst, a minor nerf and at best something of a buff. The Drake still has an excellent tank, and is now far more flexible than it was.

Another thing people quoting kill statistics tend to overlook, is that you can't just look at the Drake in the context of most-used ships - you need to look at how it compares to other battlecruisers.
As soon as you do that, it starts ringing some major alarm bells.


The fact is, this waste of a thread hasn't provided any legimate reason against a Drake nerf - it's just been a bunch of complaining about Minmatar. Justified though that is, it's completely irrelevent to the subject at hand.
Ramadawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-01-24 17:21:46 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Eshtir
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Quote:
NO missle velocity bonus is NO bonus at all. If you disagree, READ my above post on WHY MISSLE ARE BAD LONG RANGE WEAPONS. I explain why in great detail.

*snip*. Here, I'll even re-post my rebuttal to you so you don't have to scroll up:

Quote:
The problem with a range bonus to missiles is that missile’s weakness become more and more pronounced and thus less useful in PVP as their engagement ranges increases.


... Except nobody is forcing Drakes to fire further, and at the ranges they currently fire at the missiles will get there faster.
Simple solution: continue using current engagement ranges, and watch as your missiles fly to their targets much quicker than before. Did you really need me to spell that out or do you just have no idea about missiles?


Quote:
Caracal/Rupture rubbish


And exactly what relevence does this have? People use Drakes because they put out solid DPS to comparatively long ranges while packing a good 80k EHP (before fleet boosts.)
A better comparison for you to make would be arty canes vs Drakes. To save you the EFTing and typing I'll let you know how that works out: the Drakes are better.

Quote:
and BTW...it doesn't matter WHAT ships I used in my example becuase the scenario problems are applicable to ANY missle boat.

Yeah it actually does, because as I said - the only thing the Drake and Caracal have in common is the bonus. Beyond that it's apples and oranges, and what you need to be comparing is the Drake compared to other BCs - where it comes out on top by a large margin.

But hey, if guns are so much better at long range, please show me your arty Hurricane that can put out 460 DPS with an 80k tank and range of 70km.
You're posting all this flawed figures crap, while neglecting the tiny little problem that people use Drakes in enormous blobs and do so for a reason.
(And, I should add, use missiles out to mid-long ranges with no issues whatsoever.)


THIS IN NOT A VALID COUNTER ARGUMENT

My argument is based on actual DATA and data anylisis. It contain objective truths, such as a speed boosted heavy missile takes 8.5 seconds to reach a target 65 km away, upon which my arguments are based.

YOUR counter argument contains nothing more than OPINION! Opinion not based on ANY actual data.

Therfore, as per the rules of logical debate, you have NOT countered my argument.
Marko box
Atomic Bank
#44 - 2012-01-24 18:35:41 UTC
Ramadawn wrote:

actual hard data ..... scenario problems.


I did not run scenarios, i ran live tests on live ppl in real combat situations. And based o those previous test i can tell u that less tank and more dps can only be a good thing on drake.
Disadvantage is that if u are running missions in drake (lol scrub) u will actually have to move a bit now to mitigate damage.
I would like to write a long post explaining how i got to that conclusion but that would be pointless since u wrote theese things:

Quote:
This combined with the Hurricane’s better speed (which affects the drakes missile DPS)


Quote:

It’s slow (making it easier to catch),
and It uses missiles (which have ALL kinds of weakness).


Quote:

Rate of fire and missile velocity; the same bonuses that are found on the Caracal and the Raven.

You know what CCP and vaunted CSM?
Not a lot of players USE these ships in PVP. WHY? BECAUSE THE SUCK that’s why. Quite honestly, the way you have set up PVP in this games makes these ships USELESS. When your opponent can warp away before your weapon actual reaches them or your long range sniper can’t get on kill mails because your target has poped before your shot even arrives; you have the makings of a very unpopular PVP ship.


Thats why i asked u a question if u ever used a drake in any sized gang or fleet.
Ramadawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-01-24 21:13:43 UTC
Marko box wrote:
Ramadawn wrote:

actual hard data ..... scenario problems.


I did not run scenarios, i ran live tests on live ppl in real combat situations. And based o those previous test i can tell u that less tank and more dps can only be a good thing on drake. 
Disadvantage is that if u are running missions in drake (lol scrub) u will actually have to move a bit now to mitigate damage. 
I would like to write a long post explaining how i got to that conclusion but that would be pointless since u wrote theese things:

Quote:
This combined with the Hurricane’s better speed (which affects the drakes missile DPS)


Quote:

It’s slow (making it easier to catch),
and It uses missiles (which have ALL kinds of weakness).


Quote:

Rate of fire and missile velocity; the same bonuses that are found on the Caracal and the Raven.

You know what CCP and vaunted CSM?
Not a lot of players USE these ships in PVP. WHY? BECAUSE THE SUCK that’s why. Quite honestly, the way you have set up PVP in this games makes these ships USELESS. When your opponent can warp away before your weapon actual reaches them or your long range sniper can’t get on kill mails because your target has poped before your shot even arrives; you have the makings of a very unpopular PVP ship.


Thats why i asked u a question if u ever used a drake in any sized gang or fleet.


Yes I have used a drake in actual combat. As I have a hurricane and a myrmydon and a brutix. I have actually found them to be all pretty balanced. My shield nanno brutix does about 840 dps at about 12 clicks. It has a tank that is equivelent to my cane which does abour 630 dps at 18 click. If I load defenders in it's 2 hvy launchers and keep my speed up I can most likely drop a Drak's dps long enough to kill him before he kills me. My 440 fit mymadon has a tank that would make my Drake envous and still manages to shell out 3/4 of my drake's 440 dp. (This dps  is often dropped alot by the use of popular nano bcs. Not a problem suffered by my gun BCs. My drake gen has a 14k hp shield with 70 percent ave shield resist and 130 start shield regen.

As I said, they are all pretty welll balanced

And once again I use numbers to support my case while the other side only has opinion.
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-01-24 22:24:55 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
The CSM said they want the drake to be more like the caracal and raven. The caracal and raven are terrible.
...for a few reasons that don't apply to the Drake, especially not in its new buffed state (should the buff actually go through). What they mean is that they want the Drake to be focused rather than a jack-of-all-trades. As it happens, focusing it will give a very nice buff and will very specifically make it not suck in the ways the Caracal and Raven suck.


When a Race only has one good T1 ship it needs to be a jack of all trades
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-01-24 22:26:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Zyress
XXSketchxx wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:


The reason people fly drakes is that people skill for caldari for pve (despite the maelstrom being loads better than the raven for level 4s) and the drake, tengu and (ugh) falcon are pretty much the only caldari ships worth flying. (Nighthawk too, but its pretty much just an expensive drake).


Bit close minded aren't you? AML caracal is a fun and effective boat. The cerberus isn't the best for sniping but its definitely an option for missile users in a shield hac gang. Vulture is a fantastic fleet ship (shield boosts are good mmkay?). Rook and scorp are great ewar options with the blackbird being a nice beginner/throwaway. Oh and have you met my friend the Rokh? Hes pretty cool now too. Hawk and hookbill are fun as hell in small gangs. Basilisk is amazing for RR with cap buddies and of course the Posprey serves its role nicely. Yeah, drake, tengu and falcon are the only ones worth flying Roll

With the proposed changes the Nighthawk would actually have a different role than the drake, albeit niche but thats okay, it is T2 after all.


Guess you missed the part where they are nerfing ecm also. AML Caracal is a one trick pony, cerberus has no useful purpose, the Rokh is severely outclassed by either Amarr or Minmatar snipers and the Hawk is a so so assault frigate. The Hookbill is a very good Faction Frigate thats my one concession but I stand by what I said, the Drake is the only descent T1 ship in the line up.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#48 - 2012-01-24 22:28:07 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Eshtir
Right except your figures are currently conflicting with a little thing called "reality."
People can and do use Drakes, to insane effectiveness, in exactly the way you claim they don't work.

Fun fact here because it seems you've never actually used a missile ship (or you suck too badly in them to have a clue) - missile flight time really isn't a problem when your entire gang are also missile ships.

Quote:
Yes I have used a drake in actual combat.*snip*

Once again a little thing called "reality" comes in here - if your Hurricane is so much better than a Drake (rofl HMLs in the utility highs. The evidence for you being a dribbling newbie mounts ever higher) why do people fly Drake blobs and not Hurricane blobs?

You also seem to be comparing a short range Hurricane fit to long range Drake fits, which makes your argument completely void. Try comparing an artillery Hurricane to a Drake, and then you'll see how utterly **** the cane is by comparison.

Seriously, before making a thread dedicated to whining about the (possible) Drake nerf, it helps to get some idea of what it is that makes the Drake OP in the first place.

Quote:
And once again I use numbers to support my case while the other side only has opinion.

No, what you have are a few DPS and EHP statistics that are utterly meaningless on their own. Here, I'll give you some statistics that are actually comperable to each other.

Close range (10-20km range)
Shield cane - 49k EHP, 700 DPS (point blank range) 350-400 DPS (20km range) - DPS mitigated further by tracking
Armour cane - Better EHP (but still lower than a Drake) and worse DPS across the board.
HAM Drake - 86k EHP, 610 DPS (tackle range) 560 DPS (11-20km) - applies full damage to tackled targets
PG implant HAM Drake - 83k EHP, 680 DPS (tackle range) 618 DPS (11-20km) - applies full damage to tackled targets
Harbinger - I'll provide stats if you really want, but there are like 3 different fits and all of them are inferior to the Drake.

Long range (50-70km)
Arty cane - 39k EHP, 280 DPS, 2.3k alpha, locked into explosive damage and has comically poor tracking
Beam harby - 42k EHP, 305 DPS, 1k alpha, locked into EM damage and tracking isn't much better than above ^
HML Drake - 78k EHP, 460 DPS, 2.9k alpha, semi-selectable damage type, good missile precision and each Drake has target painters ensuring solid hits

In both the above cases, the Drakes also have vastly superior resists to the other ships, meaning the synergise perfectly with logistics and with a fleet booster have tanks that rival battleships.

Post-"nerf".
Drake - 60-65k EHP, same DPS - but full selectable damage type, lower alpha.
Doesn't look too broken to me.
Mary Mercer
Doomheim
#49 - 2012-01-25 00:11:35 UTC
Ramadawn wrote:
The following is an excerpt from the December 2011 meeting minutes:

The Drake: The CSM and CCP both acknowledged the need to rebalance the Drake, "which does everything to well". CCP is considering giving it a more offensive role like a Raven or Caracal where it would lose the shield resistance bonus and the 5% Kinertic bonus and instead gain a rate of fire bonus and a missile velocity bonus. The CSM vehemently approved of this idea.

Now having read this, I would like you to consider the following:

Source: Eve Kill Top 20 ships in PVP

Rank Ships Kills
1 Drake 115829
2 Tengu 82773
3 Maelstrom 81285
4 Hurricane 68436
5 Abaddon 46578
6 Armageddon 40771
7 Tornado 29248
8 Scimitar 23814
9 Tempest 23289
10 Zealot 19149
11 Sabre 19109
12 Huginn 15705
13 Cynabal 14129
14 Loki 13117
15 Hound 12738
16 Manticore 12289
17 Vagabond 12086
18 Lachesis 11781
19 Rapier 11759
20 Rifter 11226

Now consider the Following:

1. 13 of the Ships on this list are Minamatar

2. 3 of the ships on this list are Caldari

3. Of the Caldari ships on this list one ONE is Tech 1

Here is Objective clear proof that Minmatar ships are over powered in PVP and yet, you want to nerf the DRAKE?

How about you start nerfing Minmatar ships? (At what point did fast moving, high DPS ships with ,great range and a choice of damage types seem like a GOOD idea in terms of ship balance?)

And while you’re at it, lets get some Gallente ships on this list can we. Seriously ONE ships in spot number 18 and that’s ONLY there because it can warp disrupt at ranges no other ship can.

(At what point did slow moving ships with short range guns and limited damage types seem like as good idea for ship balance?)

Lets look at the Drake compared to other BCs:

- Yes the drake has a very nice tank. So does the myrmidon. In fact the myrmidon’s tank is better.

- Yes the drake has a better tank than some Battleships. But the Hurricane can do more DPS than some Battleships. And with the introduction of the Tornado you now have two amazing DPS Battle Cruisers that do MORE damage than some BC’s. BOTH of which are minmatar and BOTH of which are on this list. And yet strangely enough neither ONE of these ships are being nerfed.

-The drake’s DPS ranges around 2/3’s as much DPS as a Hurricane. This combined with the Hurricane’s better speed (which affects the drakes missile DPS) combines with a Tank that isn’t THAT bad, means the two ships are a pretty even match.

- As such, I would guess that the only reason why the Hurricane is at rank 4 and the Drake is at rank 1 is that besides the Hurricane, Minmatar pilots have a lot of OTHER great choices for pure combat ships; while Caldari Pilots have well the DRAKE.

Now lets consider the bonuses they want to give the Drake.

Rate of fire and missile velocity; the same bonuses that are found on the Caracal and the Raven.

You know what CCP and vaunted CSM?
Not a lot of players USE these ships in PVP. WHY? BECAUSE THE SUCK that’s why. Quite honestly, the way you have set up PVP in this games makes these ships USELESS. When your opponent can warp away before your weapon actual reaches them or your long range sniper can’t get on kill mails because your target has poped before your shot even arrives; you have the makings of a very unpopular PVP ship.

In short these changes will take the drake from the top of this list to the bottom of it.

Finally the Drake is NOT a ship without significant weaknesses (unlike the minmater).

It’s slow (making it easier to catch),
and It uses missiles (which have ALL kinds of weakness).

These weakness are easily as significant as it’s strengths. (unlike minmater ships)

So in summary

LEAVE THE DRAKE ALONG.

Don’t fix what’s NOT broken

Fix whats actually broken


Oh the love of political use of numbers. I just love to see when people post numbers trying to make a case, but use the numbers in a way that will mean nothing.

Could you please also tell us how many of each of those ships listed is involved in a pvp fight? And of those, how many are 1v1 versus how many are small gang related.

Without telling us how many of each ship type are in use in combat situations these numbers are pointless. If 10 drakes are in use and and 100,000 rifters were used to get those kills we have a drake problem. on the other hand if it's the other way we don't. See my point? Try not to further your political agenda through skewing numbers. Draw a full picture.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#50 - 2012-01-25 00:19:34 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Post-"nerf".
Drake - 60-65k EHP, same DPS - but full selectable damage type, lower alpha.
Doesn't look too broken to me.
Me neither, just looks to be more in-line tbh.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#51 - 2012-01-25 00:22:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
The other BCs tend to average out around 60k when tank fitted without gimping their DPS too badly, so that looks fine to me.
I can also see some plusses in being able to lob HAMs at 30km.

What's interesting is, with this change, the Ferox may well beat the Drake in tank if fitted right. Coupled with the fact they can now fit a full rack of neutrons, we might be seeing some increased use of that ship?
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#52 - 2012-01-25 02:53:08 UTC
The proposed Drake changes don't break it. If nothing else it might keep it viable as well as maybe give the Ferox a point to exist.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#53 - 2012-01-25 12:10:40 UTC
I have no idea what's going on in this thread. I can't even begin follow the argument between Duchess and the OP. They might not even actually be arguing, that's how little I can follow it.

The only thing that's obvious to me is that a ROF/velocity Drake would generally be a better PVP ship than the current Kin/resist one, especially in solo/small-gang environments. In blobs, whether it would be better depends on the balance between decreased logistics rep-ability and increase applied damage and reduced flight time over typical engagement ranges. And that such a Drake would further relegate the Caracal to a museum piece.

I don't understand why CCP and the CSM is proposing boosting the Drake when I'd be taking the nerfbat to tier 2 BCs in general, and the Hurricane and Drake in particular.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#54 - 2012-01-25 14:02:47 UTC
Quote:
I have no idea what's going on in this thread. I can't even begin follow the argument between Duchess and the OP. They might not even actually be arguing, that's how little I can follow it.

To summarise: the OP seems to think the Drake is fine, because Minmatar have more ships in that narrow set of statistics, and that this change would break it and make it unusable. Yeah, he really is that dim.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2012-01-25 17:27:39 UTC
Soo...

Apparenlty CCP has this theory that because a drake is so powerful when stacked multiple times in a fleet that it's OP??

Lets get something straight...When it comes to pve, the drake is capable of tackling most level 4's solo.
Hell, I've even done "Smash the supplier" with a drake by kiting and it did way better than my Golem, because the golem was way too big and took a LOT of damage.

Now, you put the drake solo in pvp and it pretty much sucks... The only advantage it has is it's tank, but in order to keep a well good effective tank on the drake, you must forgo things like dps and ewar.

Now, where the drake becomes powerful is when you put several of them together in a fleet.
HOWEVER, if I put several of any one type of ship together in a fleet it will still be a pretty powerful fleet.
You can take a fleet of the same amount of hurricanes and probably end up being more functional than the drake fleet cause you'll have higher dps, and more ewar... Not to mention a faster engagement time and actually have alpha.

So, we do what the OP said is happening a basically remove the only reason for EVER using a drake and that would be it's tank.

So now we have a small ship with crap dps AND a crap tank.

Lets build a fleet of these and see how well they fair. Drakes will easily go from the top of the list to not even on the list.
Hell, take away their tanking ability, and you'll make them even useless for the one thing they are TRULY good at and that's pve.

What someone else posted earlier on about buffing other tier 2 bc's is truly the only option.
Even giving the drake the ability to have the same dps with all damage types isn't going to be enough to make up for the loss of tank.
In pvp everyone omni tanks and typically has close to the same resistances for all damage types. So the drake being able to have multifunctional dps wouldn't change a thing. Even if it did change something, no one is pvp has enough time to scan their target fittings, factor their weakest resistance, change ammo type, and then begin firing.
Most of your fleet would be dead by the time you even figured out what their weakest resistance was, or you could have probably put the target down by then even using the wrong damage type.

So basically you're giving the drake a damage selection bonus that is only truly effective in pve and then nerfing its tanking capability which is the only thing that makes it truly effective in either pvp or pve.

So where's the balance in that????
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#56 - 2012-01-25 17:45:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
Now, you put the drake solo in pvp and it pretty much sucks... The only advantage it has is it's tank, but in order to keep a well good effective tank on the drake, you must forgo things like dps and ewar.

Umm, we're not in 2006 any more - none of what you just said is actually true.
The Drake can easily mount good DPS with an 80k tank and full tackle. It's really not that hard, you know.

Quote:
HOWEVER, if I put several of any one type of ship together in a fleet it will still be a pretty powerful fleet.

Wrong again. Check out my stats from the last page - the Drake is head and shoulders over the other BCs for fleet use.

Quote:
So, we do what the OP said is happening a basically remove the only reason for EVER using a drake and that would be it's tank.

I'm starting to wonder if a single sentence of your post is remotely true. The Drake will still be packing 60-65k EHP with these changes, and actually have better applied DPS.

Quote:
So now we have a small ship with crap dps AND a crap tank.

Hint: try fitting your Drakes for PVP sometime, rather than filling it with shield power relays and LSEs. You might just learn something.

I didn't even bother reading the rest of your post from there, as you obviously don't know the first thing about how to fit/use a Drake.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2012-01-25 18:00:40 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Right except your figures are currently conflicting with a little thing called "reality."
People can and do use Drakes, to insane effectiveness, in exactly the way you claim they don't work.

Fun fact here because it seems you've never actually used a missile ship (or you suck too badly in them to have a clue) - missile flight time really isn't a problem when your entire gang are also missile ships.

Quote:
Yes I have used a drake in actual combat. (and then some bullshit)

Once again a little thing called "reality" comes in here - if your Hurricane is so much better than a Drake (rofl HMLs in the utility highs. The evidence for you being a dribbling newbie mounts ever higher) why do people fly Drake blobs and not Hurricane blobs?

You also seem to be comparing a short range Hurricane fit to long range Drake fits, which makes your argument completely void. Try comparing an artillery Hurricane to a Drake, and then you'll see how utterly **** the cane is by comparison.

Seriously, before making a thread dedicated to whining about the (possible) Drake nerf, it helps to get some idea of what it is that makes the Drake OP in the first place.

Quote:
And once again I use numbers to support my case while the other side only has opinion.

No, what you have are a few DPS and EHP statistics that are utterly meaningless on their own. Here, I'll give you some statistics that are actually comperable to each other.

Close range (10-20km range)
Shield cane - 49k EHP, 700 DPS (point blank range) 350-400 DPS (20km range) - DPS mitigated further by tracking
Armour cane - Better EHP (but still lower than a Drake) and worse DPS across the board.
HAM Drake - 86k EHP, 610 DPS (tackle range) 560 DPS (11-20km) - applies full damage to tackled targets
PG implant HAM Drake - 83k EHP, 680 DPS (tackle range) 618 DPS (11-20km) - applies full damage to tackled targets
Harbinger - I'll provide stats if you really want, but there are like 3 different fits and all of them are inferior to the Drake.

Long range (50-70km)
Arty cane - 39k EHP, 280 DPS, 2.3k alpha, locked into explosive damage and has comically poor tracking
Beam harby - 42k EHP, 305 DPS, 1k alpha, locked into EM damage and tracking isn't much better than above ^
HML Drake - 78k EHP, 460 DPS, 2.9k alpha, semi-selectable damage type, good missile precision and each Drake has target painters ensuring solid hits

In both the above cases, the Drakes also have vastly superior resists to the other ships, meaning the synergise perfectly with logistics and with a fleet booster have tanks that rival battleships.

Post-"nerf".
Drake - 60-65k EHP, same DPS - but full selectable damage type, lower alpha.
Doesn't look too broken to me.


This is why I stated this..

Quote:
What someone else posted earlier on about buffing other tier 2 bc's is truly the only option.


I'll say again though, just because other tier 2 bc's suck worse than the drake doesn't mean that the drake is oh so good.

Buff the other bc's to have a bit more EHP in comparison to the drake. Sure, they can maintain better dps and better alpha, but the drake should maintain the better EHP.
At least buffing the EHP of other bc's would mean instead of making them all unsuable in lvl 4 missions, you'll make them all a possible use, even though in some cases they're less effective than a bs or t3 cruiser.

So while i'm not disagreeing with you that the drake may be more effective than other bc's(again, mostly due to it's tank). nerfing the drake isn't going to balance anything, it's only gonna make the drake relatively unusable, even in pve.
So instead buff the other bc's.
Tomytronic
Perkone
Caldari State
#58 - 2012-01-25 18:07:24 UTC
Why is this even being discussed? You have no real numbers, you have nothing worth debating over. You're all just getting hot and bothered over idle speculation made in five minutes of talk at a CSM meeting. Why don't you wait for some actual figures and actual reasoning before you start running around saying the sky is falling?
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#59 - 2012-01-25 18:08:32 UTC
Quote:
I'll say again though, just because other tier 2 bc's suck worse than the drake doesn't mean that the drake is oh so good.

No, the fact it has ridiculous tank coupled with solid DPS, range projection, newbie-friendliness and synergy with logistics makes it oh so good.
(And being a third of the cost of a battleship)

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Buff the other bc's to have a bit more EHP in comparison to the drake.

We're already playing battlecruisers online, the last thing BCs need is a buff. Why buff 7 ships when you can nerf 1?
Much less risk of throwing balance out of whack.

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Sure, they can maintain better dps and better alpha.

Only on paper.

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At least buffing the EHP of other bc's would mean instead of making them all unsuable in lvl 4 missions, you'll make them all a possible use, even though in some cases they're less effective than a bs or t3 cruiser.

PVE balance comes second to PVP balance, end of. Besides, the Drake is an utter lolship for level 4s that's only used by newbies and people who generally don't know better.

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nerfing the drake isn't going to balance anything, it's only gonna make the drake relatively unusable, even in pve.
So instead buff the other bc's.

Unusable? 60k EHP with full selectable damage type and high DPS is "unusable"? What game are you playing?
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#60 - 2012-01-25 18:22:06 UTC
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At least I have kills....

It's called an alt. Besides, I'm not the one who claimed to have so much experience in all the BCs - that was you. I decided to do a quick search and oh look - a handfull of blob kills and failfit losses.

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I haven't conceeded your piont, I still waiting for you to say something relevent.

Oh you mean apart from shooting down every bullshit point you've made across this entire thread?
You even demanded figures - I just gave them. You even quoted them right there. I showed you, numerically, why the Drake is completely out of whack with the other BCs.