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Why no x-type medium armor repairers?
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Scarlet Roadrunner
Doomheim
#1 - 2017-07-08 19:04:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Scarlet Roadrunner
I wondered why CCP never introduced x-type medium armor repairers?

Shield tanking has large and XL x-type shield boosters. Large is actually a cruiser sized shield booster (150pg usage on x-type large shield booster. But armor tankers are stuck with a-type at best if they plan to use repairers on a medium sized ship, because a-type medium is the largest armor repairer a cruiser can fit.

This creates an imbalance in medium ship tanking because a compariable shield tank with an x-type large shield booster will tank 50% more hp/sec than a best deadspace (medium a-type armor repairer) armor tanker.

What would help a bit is to release an x-type armor repairer that medium ships such as cruisers can use. Currently only shield tanking cruisers can make use of x-type repair modules (gist x-type large booster).

I actually just realised the imbalance in battleship sized repairers is even worse. A Gist x-type XL shield booster repairs 80% more HP/sec than a Core X-type large armor repairer. And Gist X isn't even the best one for rep per second, Pith X is even better but less cap efficient.

No wonder X-type large armor reps are barely worth 100m isk, whilst X-type Gist XL shield boosters cost 450m.
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2017-07-08 19:09:27 UTC
Armor needs a buff anyway. Shields are a bit crazy right now.
More HP, shield tanks have more damage available and generally get higher resists and they rep way faster. Shields have no real downside.
Scarlet Roadrunner
Doomheim
#3 - 2017-07-08 19:15:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Scarlet Roadrunner
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:
Armor needs a buff anyway. Shields are a bit crazy right now.
More HP, shield tanks have more damage available and generally get higher resists and they rep way faster. Shields have no real downside.


Yeah. Shields also have natural regeneration - every little helps.

What really screws the balance is that we have small, medium, large and x-large shield boosters. With XL being for battleships and large being for cruisers.

In comparison armor tankers get small, medium and large armor repairers. The medium armor repairer is the biggest a cruiser can fit, it uses more PG than a large shield booster, which it's supposed to be compariable to, but it's compariable only in fitting costs, because the hp repair/second is dramatically less.

I don't know why they made it this way, because it means cruisers can fit a large x-type shield booster and get a far superior active tank to a cruiser sized armor tanker.

I have two possible solutions to this.

1. Release x-type armor repairers that a cruiser can use, so a ded fit armor tanked cruiser isn't so far behind ded fit shield tank cruisers any more.

And to follow from that and perhaps more importantly:

2. Re-vamp armor tanking module options to have the same set up as shield tanking. Meaning give armor tanks a choice between a small, medium, large and XL armor repairers - obviously the new large armor repairer module would be compariable to the large shield booster in terms of active tank potential and the current medium armor repairer would be adjusted for smaller ships to be compariable to the medium shield booster. All current medium armor repairers in game would be converted into the new large version of the model since the new large repairer would replace the current medium repairer as the cruiser sized armor repair module. Current large armor repairers would be converted into XL armor repairers for battleships and so on.

Or as I've realised, because armor reps across all sizes are significantly worse hp repaired than their shield counterparts:

3. a simplier option is to boost armor repair amounts across all armor repairers to bring their repair amounts up to par with their shield booster equivalents. Some would need huge boosts. When a Core X-type large armor repairer sells for less than 100m and a Gist X-type XL shield booster sells for 450m you know there's a balance issue.

Anyone compared the difference between a Core X-type Large repairer and a Gist X-type XL shield booster? The shield booster is nearly 80% better in terms of hp/sec repaired. No wonder Gist X-type XL shield boosters are over 400m and Core X-type large armor repairers are under 100m. That's actuallty even worse than the difference between the cruiser sized repairer/booster modules. And Gist X isn't even the best hp/per sec, Pith is the best.. Yet Gist X XL booster is on par with Core X large armor repairers for cap efficiency whilst boosting 80% more hp/sec



Active armor tanking across all sizes needs a boost in repair amounts to bring it up to par with active shield tanks.
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#4 - 2017-07-08 19:48:43 UTC
lets also not forget that shields also have a module that increases shield boost amount even further while armor tankers have to use a rig slot to increase armor repair amount.
Aston Martin DB5
Deaths Consortium
Pandemic Horde
#5 - 2017-07-08 19:54:03 UTC
Devs are shield fit only. They ain't got time for dat.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#6 - 2017-07-09 00:56:05 UTC
There are no X-type cruiser-categorized modules period. That includes MARs, MSBs, invulns, EANMs, resistance amps, etc. Unless we add something like 6.5/10s there won't be either.

I frankly don't see what the issue is. A-type MARs are great.
Blade Darth
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#7 - 2017-07-09 01:27:09 UTC
hp/s and dmg isn't everything, yes you might have to go dualrep to tank as good as a single shield booster, but you have a few mid slots for cap boosters, prop mods, control and ewar

Omen Navy Issue Tutorial
Scarlet Roadrunner
Doomheim
#8 - 2017-07-09 10:20:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Scarlet Roadrunner
Blade Darth wrote:
hp/s and dmg isn't everything, yes you might have to go dualrep to tank as good as a single shield booster, but you have a few mid slots for cap boosters, prop mods, control and ewar


Due to shield tanks getting more mid slots, so do shield tankers have these option. Perhaps not in all cases but some shield tanking ships have several mid slots compared to armor tankers 3 mid slots.

Let's compare the best armor repairers for medium and large ships.

Centum A-type medium armor repairer: 538 armor repaired every 9 seconds for 180 cap (lvl 5 repair systems included)

= 59.7 HP per second repaired
= 2.98 HP per 1 cap spent

Gist X-type large shield booster: 296 shield repaired every 3.2 seconds for 91.8 cap (lvl 5 shield comp included)

= 92.5 HP per second repaired
= 3.22 HP per 1 cap spent

So the Gist X-type shield booster boosts more than 50% more HP per second than the Centum a-type medium armor repairer and does so with greater cap efficiency, too.

Let's compare it now to the Pithium a-type medium shield booster, which even requires just 12 powergrid to fit. Even frigates an destroyers can use this.

Pithium A-type medium shield booster: 228 shield repaired every 3 seconds for 54 cap (level 5 shield comp included)

= 76 HP per second repaired
= 4.2 HP per 1 cap spent.

So even the A-type shield booster that a frigate can use repairs nearly 30% more HP per second than the best cruiser sized armor repairer. And does so with a much greater cap efficiency.

Imbalance much?

Let's compare the X-type large armor repairer vs XL shield booster

Core X-type Large armor repairer: 1288 armor repaired every 11.25 seconds for 400 cap

= 114.48 HP per second repaired
= 3.22 HP per 1 cap spent

Gist X-type XL shield booster: 739 shields repaired every 4 seconds for 183.6 cap

= 184.75 HP per second repaired
= 4 HP per 1 cap spent

So the Gist X-type XL shield booster not only boosts 62% more HP per second than the Core X-type large armor repairer, but it does so with 30% better cap efficiency, too.

Keep the imbalance if you like. It makes no sense though. How many people fit dual armor repairers any more? For armor tankers to achieve the active tank of a shield fit they need to either run a niche use dual rep fit, or they must waste all 3 rig slots with nano pumps - assuming they even have 3 rig slots.

I've always been a shield tanker btw. I would like to run some armor tanking setups too but I find the imbalance just a bit too great to make it worth it.

I can tell you that the new T3 cruisers largely focus on active tank - and they're going to be out of whack, because of active armor tanks being hugely inferior to the shield tanks. I was hoping to run with a good Legion set up, but the active rep numbers means the armor tankers just don't match up to active shield tanks.
Scarlet Roadrunner
Doomheim
#9 - 2017-07-11 18:52:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Scarlet Roadrunner
I've been tinkering with active tank setups for the new re-vamped T3 cruisers.

(pimped fit)

As much as I wanted to play as a Legion, the max achievable pimped armor tank just doesn't compare to an equivalent pimped shield tank (roughly same isk spent on each ship).

The shield tanker will always be able to achieve 25% to 40% more hp/per sec with a single booster vs a single armor repairer with a nano pump II rig. Armor repairer modules need a 20% boost in repair amount imo - just to bring it closer to being balanced with shields.