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Random alpha thougts on the game

Author
Rendo Schereauk
Time will tell
#1 - 2017-07-07 08:47:42 UTC
The basics of engaging PvP is extremely simple, mandatory is:

  • Near to equal equipment i.e. starting chances.
  • Engaging options during a fight.
  • A sound risk/reward balance.


I would say EVE fails the first, and is barely average in the other two.
So why all this "high-pitched" articles on PvE vs PvP? If the basic requirements for engaging PvP are not met there is little use in looking further.

Eve tries to be the following in that order:

  • A sandbox openworld game.
  • A trade/economy simulation.
  • A roleplaying and character building/leveling game.
  • A spaceship simulation.
  • PvE experience.
  • PvP experience.


The interesting part is that it does all that at the same time, being the ultimate real time simulation experience.
But it can clearly be seen that PvP is the last bullet of the list. That is also the reason why the points from the first list are not properly implemented.

Eve is successfully integrating the points from the second list in one simulation, there are two key questions;
How meaningful is it to have all this in one package?
How can one aspect be improved without hurting the others?

Lets take PvP as an example, not because it is particularly interesting but because there is so much hot air about it.
Look at any real life recognized dispute able to qualify as entretaining and worth of attention. That would be a sport like football, F1 Racing etc.. All those engagements have a extremely specific ruleset, that warrantee the fist point of the first list.
Any other type of real-life engagement is performed solely as part of business, hatred or love.

What sense does it make to promote for example T2 vs T1 fights? None at all, it would only compell to cheaters and people seeing the T1 interfering with their business or the hatred part like for example territorial defense claims.


Cade Windstalker
#2 - 2017-07-07 12:11:59 UTC
Your premise is flawed and this is why:

Rendo Schereauk wrote:
The basics of engaging PvP is extremely simple, mandatory is:

  • Near to equal equipment i.e. starting chances.



This has never been true, for any game, ever with any kind of open world PvP setup.

World of Warcraft, the king of western MMOs doesn't even have anything like this. Open world and arena PvP is still heavily influenced by gear and there is absolutely no requirement that things ever start out "fair".

This is especially true in Eve, where the entire game is the arena and anything goes. PvP starts before you undock with the choices you make fitting your ship, and if you make the right choices it's very possible to lose every ship in your fleet and still 'win' because you blew up one shiny thing the enemy brought to the party that was worth more than your entire fleet put together times two.

If you come to *any* open world PvP game expecting this kind of fairness you are going to be disappointed and it is not a failing of Eve that it does not provide this.
Xzanos
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2017-07-07 12:35:46 UTC
Rendo Schereauk wrote:
The basics of engaging PvP is extremely simple, mandatory is:
[list]
  • Near to equal equipment i.e. starting chances.


  • Learn the hard counters and you will do just fine. There are lots of t1 ships that with the right fittings can easily win fights against a fully t2 setup. Its all about countering your opponent. Sure its fun to dual on equal terms but THAT AINT EVE. LF dual in trade hub if you want to have a "fair fight"

    As posted before even in WOW open world pvp does not have to be fair. 3 rogues could unstealth and gank my ass as lvl 60s and im lvl 45 lol.

    *activates thermal hardeners for incoming flame

    SurrenderMonkey
    The Exchange Collective
    Solyaris Chtonium
    #4 - 2017-07-07 18:07:19 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
    Rendo Schereauk wrote:

    What sense does it make to promote for example T2 vs T1 fights? None at all, it would only compell to cheaters and people seeing the T1 interfering with their business or the hatred part like for example territorial defense claims.





    The difference between T1 and T2 is likely a lot less than you think, and there are only a few cases where T2 definitively outperforms its T1 equivalents (drones come to mind).

    With respect to ships, T2 tend to be designed to excel at a specific role. A covert ops is a better scanning and hacking ship than its T1 equivalent, but for most fits, and in most cases, a T1 exploration frigate is actually a better combat ship.

    Stealth bombers have a unique anti-large-ship role, but are trivially thrashed by T1 frigates.

    BLOPs battleships are pretty much flat out worse in combat than their T1 counterparts, but they get a cloak and a jump drive.

    With respect to modules, T2 tend to be only marginally better than their T1 counterparts, and pay for it with additional fitting requirements, which is why even veteran players will frequently be seen making use of T1 prop and tackle mods on ships/fits that don't really benefit from T2.

    I would say the number of 1v1 fights I've either won or lost by a margin slim enough to be chalked up to merely "better gear" is vanishingly small.

    I can also pretty much guarantee that if we put you in a fully skilled up character with an effectively limitless wallet and left you to roll out whatever you want (subcap, anyway), there are plenty of vets who could still cheefully stomp you all day on an alpha clone.

    "Help, I'm bored with missions!"

    http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

    Cindy the Sewer
    Radiation Sickness
    #5 - 2017-07-08 16:50:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Cindy the Sewer
    1. "Fair", fights are for idiots. 20 v 1 is the way to go.

    Wait......did i say 20 v 1?

    I meant 50 v 1 (because overkill is just barely reasonable).



    2. There are a lot of engaging combat options in eve already.



    3. You can choose between fully lopsided profit making piracy (waves at CODE, Marmite and others), fairly balanced pvp loot dropping (those fights where the numbers, abilities and ship composition have actually turned out relatively equal).

    Of course there is my corp's personal favorite, just blow your **** up and leave it there because we are f***-ton rich and flying 20km to your dead ship and pushing the loot button is way too much effort for a measly 500 million ISK.

    We might loot your corpse; however, so we can take it home and do some obscene and kinky stuff to it and yes, there will be video footage!

    So if you get the feeling of being seriously violated after you get into your new clone dont make the mistake of thinking it was because you lost a ship. It is just us, 'partying' with your old clone.

    Searing destruction of your viewpoint is incoming and no you won't win the discussion or even walk away with anything resembling a win, so bail out early or suffer repeated embarrassments. You have been warned.

    Daichi Yamato
    Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
    #6 - 2017-07-10 12:25:05 UTC
    I have to disagree,

    In an open world sandbox you start a contest from the moment you join the game. In that respect everyone starts the same. From that moment everything's you do is in build up to all the fights you have. Most of the interesting options you make will happen long before the fight starts.

    Eve gives newer players a better chance of winning against older players than pretty much every other mmorpg out there. Capping skills at level 5, rock paper scissors style balancing and diminishing returns make noobs in eve more powerful than in other games. And you can always make more friends.

    The reason playing solo is so hard in eve is because you can't just use overwhelming sp and equipment to win against a larger gang. It takes genuine skill (most of the time).

    EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

    Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

    Old Pervert
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #7 - 2017-07-10 20:08:58 UTC
    I recommend next time you start with questions. As an alpha player, odds are you're quite new to the game. Everything you've cited is considered a "plus".

    1) Eve has a very steep learning curve.

    2) This game has consequences to popping. That means people who want you to be the one that pops will bring friends to help make sure you're the one who pops. It's not fair, but it's quite realistic of them and in no way should they be prevented from doing this to you.

    3) That you see PVP as the last bullet is the most telling sign that you are either woefully inexperienced or just a terribad vet. PVP exists in virtually every aspect of the game, and in any area that it does not directly exist, you must always be aware that it could very quickly exist.

    4) As others said, you start PVPing before you even undock. I like to start with a little lube in my backside, so that if I happen to be on the receiving end of "lolsurprise", it doesn't suck quite as bad. The important thing is to not let them see you cry, and the lube helps with that!
    Shallanna Yassavi
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #8 - 2017-07-12 04:48:46 UTC
    Cindy the Sewer wrote:
    1. "Fair", fights are for idiots. 20 v 1 is the way to go.

    Wait......did i say 20 v 1?

    I meant 50 v 1 (because overkill is just barely reasonable).



    2. There are a lot of engaging combat options in eve already.



    3. You can choose between fully lopsided profit making piracy (waves at CODE, Marmite and others), fairly balanced pvp loot dropping (those fights where the numbers, abilities and ship composition have actually turned out relatively equal).

    Of course there is my corp's personal favorite, just blow your **** up and leave it there because we are f***-ton rich and flying 20km to your dead ship and pushing the loot button is way too much effort for a measly 500 million ISK.

    We might loot your corpse; however, so we can take it home and do some obscene and kinky stuff to it and yes, there will be video footage!

    So if you get the feeling of being seriously violated after you get into your new clone dont make the mistake of thinking it was because you lost a ship. It is just us, 'partying' with your old clone.

    If "fair" fights are for "idiots", 1v20 must be for comatose drool-monkeys.

    A signature :o

    Rendo Schereauk
    Time will tell
    #9 - 2017-07-19 11:48:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Rendo Schereauk
    Today a look at the security system.

    The concept of a mighty police watching over population is not something new to game, games or even the real world.
    The police is one of many arms of the executive power.
    It works only in conjunction with the legislative power and the judiciary power.
    Within EVE the CONCORD entity unites executive and judiciary power on the claim that it is programmed and not subject to arbitrary descision making.
    There are sandbox games without police so why is it that we need a police and what about the imposed legislation?
    The short answer is that legislation and police are there to protect the new players from the sharks. In the outher regions of space there is no such thing as police and players are free to perish as they may or may not desire.
    Basically lawless territory leaves the protection of a player to himself, imposing a burden that may become potential if adressed in a group.
    What about the upper and lower house of the senate for the sectors where law applies?
    That tasks are relegated to the game developer who defines not only what and how the universe is but also how the player is allowed to interact with it.

    For transparency reasons the developer have assigned some 10 security status numbers ranging from 0.0, 0.1...1.0 to solar systems with corresponding law. This classification and variations, are used as balancing factor in several ways for other aspects of the EVE universe.
    There are lot of shady aspects to it, like criminal and suspect flags that wear off rather quickly.

    Overall I feel there is not much more worth to say other than player and developers are still looking for creative ways to find holes and spaces in and arround the law enforcing agency.