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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Cloak Activation

Author
Xzanos
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2017-07-05 20:47:22 UTC
Ok so instead of posting my change idea, Im first going to get some feedback from you guys.

Why is it that I can not activate my cloak when already cloaked through a gate? I mean what is the reason they designed it this way?

*activates thermal hardeners for incoming flame

Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2017-07-05 21:16:55 UTC
So that someone can catch you, in a nutshell.

I'm sure there's also a limitation on activating modules while cloaked.
Cade Windstalker
#3 - 2017-07-06 14:16:23 UTC
You can't activate modules while cloaked.

If activating modules while cloaked broke the cloak that would cause potential issues as well as lots of accidents.

It's not worthwhile to make a specific exemption for the cloak, especially since as Old said that would be just a little bit imbalanced.
Xzanos
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2017-07-07 12:30:28 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
You can't activate modules while cloaked.

If activating modules while cloaked broke the cloak that would cause potential issues as well as lots of accidents.

It's not worthwhile to make a specific exemption for the cloak, especially since as Old said that would be just a little bit imbalanced.


Whats so imbalanced about not getting caught on a gate in a covops?

*activates thermal hardeners for incoming flame

Cade Windstalker
#5 - 2017-07-07 13:04:29 UTC
Xzanos wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
You can't activate modules while cloaked.

If activating modules while cloaked broke the cloak that would cause potential issues as well as lots of accidents.

It's not worthwhile to make a specific exemption for the cloak, especially since as Old said that would be just a little bit imbalanced.


Whats so imbalanced about not getting caught on a gate in a covops?


Because this is Eve where everything has some kind of counter. In this case having to drop gate cloak to cloak up gives an opponent a *very* small window to grab you, that's all.
Xzanos
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2017-07-07 13:07:14 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Xzanos wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
You can't activate modules while cloaked.

If activating modules while cloaked broke the cloak that would cause potential issues as well as lots of accidents.

It's not worthwhile to make a specific exemption for the cloak, especially since as Old said that would be just a little bit imbalanced.


Whats so imbalanced about not getting caught on a gate in a covops?


Because this is Eve where everything has some kind of counter. In this case having to drop gate cloak to cloak up gives an opponent a *very* small window to grab you, that's all.


Gives them a whole server tick to lock you, actually. Also there would still be plenty of chance to decloak someone using bubbles in nullsec or drone spam on gates in low.

*activates thermal hardeners for incoming flame

Cade Windstalker
#7 - 2017-07-07 14:17:26 UTC
Xzanos wrote:
Gives them a whole server tick to lock you, actually. Also there would still be plenty of chance to decloak someone using bubbles in nullsec or drone spam on gates in low.


Doesn't actually work in practice, since while the overview *says* you're lockable for a tick in practice the first tick gets wasted on a lock request and you're cloaked by the time the request goes through. It's part of the same principle under which you only need a sub-2 second align time to beat insta-lock points.

In theory someone *could* lock you, but they'd need to hit lock literally as you drop cloak and have an absurdly quick lock time as well as "down the street from the server" levels of ping.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#8 - 2017-07-07 15:17:13 UTC
Xzanos wrote:
Gives them a whole server tick to lock you, actually. Also there would still be plenty of chance to decloak someone using bubbles in nullsec or drone spam on gates in low.

But you have the chance to activate your cloak in that same sever tick so in the end it balances out reasonably well which is likely why CCP has never changed it.
This is an older article but the basics of the server tick have not changed much since it was written reading it may hel;p you understand the situation better and it will better equip you to handle this transition.
Understanding the server tick.

I have never seen anything on this from CCP so everything you read here is just our thoughts on the issue.
Essentially this comes down to the restriction on activating modules while cloaked and who or what is providing that cloak is not relevant. If the game was re-coded to allow you to activate an on-board cloak while you were still gate cloaked then others could target and fire weapons while they were gate cloaked and trust me that would be a really bad thing. Yes CCP could code around this but to be honest it would add a level of complexity that is not required the gate to on-board cloak transition has worked well for as long as I have been in the game and there is really is not any reason to change it.

Some things to think about and remember.
You control when you make the transition, while that seems like an insignificant thing in reality it is huge.
Those who may be looking for you will not see you until you do something that deactivates the gate cloak.
Once they see you average human reaction times (0.4 second as determined in continual testing by the NHRA more at the end) dictate that you will likely have an entire server tick before they can spot you on overview, move their cursor to and then click on your ship to select it and then press the target button / hot key.
So in an average situation you essentially have one and possibly two server ticks to get your cloak activated and in most cases this will be all you need. If you die in low or nul sec flying a ship with a cov ops cloak you are far more likely to die to your own carelessness(low sec) or a bomb (nul sec) than you are to a dedicated action to target and shoot you.

Scattering crap around a gate to force a de-cloak is not as much of a problem as you may think. Mostly because CCP frowns on the activity because of the lag it can produce and in fact section 16 of the TOS specifically prohibits this activity if / when it affects another players ability to play the game. A lot of gray area in this and no doubt it would be a judgement call on the part of CCP, but my advice is if you are ever de-cloaked by junk scattered about a gate, something other than the obvious wrecks from a fight file a ticket with CCP. Here is a link to the EvE Online TOS.

Bubbles are something you will only run into in nul sec since there use is prohibited in empire space, yes low sec is still empire space so you will not run into bubble in low sec. Bubbles do not affect your ability to cloak they only prevent your warp drive from working. Please note I said warp drive as an AB, MWD or MJD will still operate inside a bubble. Someone their watching the bubble is the biggest problem you will face and to be honest the biggest issue you face there is if they have a bomb launcher.
So basically if you land in a bubble your actions will depend on the specif circumstances and covering all of the possibilities would not be possible here instead here are some general ideas.
Cloaking and moving away unseen is usually but not always better than trying to MWD, MJD or AB out of the bubble.
If there are people watching the gate and they have one or more bomb launchers you are dead no matter what you do if you are flying a cov ops frigate, usually they do not have the EHP to survive a single bomb, they will not survive two or more.
If there are people watching the bubble and you do not die to bombs then a second or two after your cloak engages change your direction of travel since the only hope they have is trying to de-cloak you and there only real clue is the direction you were traveling when you cloaked so changing directions gives you a better chance of getting away.

The EvE University page on interdiction is a great place to start learning more.

Now that more at the end thing regarding the NHRA (National Hot Rod Association). The NHRA sets up kiosks at their events (drag racing in the US) where fans can test their reaction times to the starting lights and compare it to that of the pro drivers. The NHRA also records this data (times only no names) and uses it to adjust the delays used in the starting light sequence and for the last 20 years those delays have been set based on a 0.4 second average response time.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#9 - 2017-07-07 17:22:20 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Xzanos wrote:
Gives them a whole server tick to lock you, actually. Also there would still be plenty of chance to decloak someone using bubbles in nullsec or drone spam on gates in low.


Doesn't actually work in practice, since while the overview *says* you're lockable for a tick in practice the first tick gets wasted on a lock request and you're cloaked by the time the request goes through. It's part of the same principle under which you only need a sub-2 second align time to beat insta-lock points.

In theory someone *could* lock you, but they'd need to hit lock literally as you drop cloak and have an absurdly quick lock time as well as "down the street from the server" levels of ping.



This is... partially correct, IIRC. The actual lock begins and ends intra-tick, even though the client updates happen on the tick, so the first tick isn't actually wasted.

At least some module activations also occur intratick (guns, scrams).

I'm not sure if cloaks activate intratick, however.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Cade Windstalker
#10 - 2017-07-07 19:05:47 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
This is... partially correct, IIRC. The actual lock begins and ends intra-tick, even though the client updates happen on the tick, so the first tick isn't actually wasted.

At least some module activations also occur intratick (guns, scrams).

I'm not sure if cloaks activate intratick, however.


Based on a comment on Reddit a few months ago by a Dev I believe all module activations as well as things like reps actually happen intra-tick. That's why it can look like someone's health didn't move while they're being shot and repped, but it's not actually possible to over-rep to let someone survive alpha that would have killed them. The health update sent to the client does happen at the end of tick though, so the health doesn't move.

We could always play around on Sisi to test locking a cloaked ship, but based on the amount of "no you're wrong" I got the last time I tried to espouse the view that you could lock someone before they cloaked up I'm inclined to believe that it's not reliably doable even with an insta-lock setup.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#11 - 2017-07-07 19:14:58 UTC
Yeah, the last time this came up I meant to fiddle about with it on Sisi (Although, I doubt I have the requisite latency), but at the time, Sisi was stuck in everyone-is-an-alpha-and-you-can't-login-two-accounts so. Roll

My suspicion is that the cloak actually does activate intratick, though.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Cade Windstalker
#12 - 2017-07-07 19:28:23 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Yeah, the last time this came up I meant to fiddle about with it on Sisi (Although, I doubt I have the requisite latency), but at the time, Sisi was stuck in everyone-is-an-alpha-and-you-can't-login-two-accounts so. Roll

My suspicion is that the cloak actually does activate intratick, though.


How about this, do you have time this weekend? We can throw a cloak on a Carrier and an insta-lock ship of some kind. Easiest way to check if it's intra-tick is have the person with the cloak say "go" at the same time as they activate it. Assuming shorter latency between the players than the server that should answer the question at least for the purposes of 99% of the playerbase.
Xzanos
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2017-07-07 19:28:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Xzanos
Well regardless it still happens, and especially with the general UI issues of clicking something and it not activating coming through a gate in a covops is still way to dangerous.

I dont see why you should not be able to do several things while cloaked.

Pre overload modules
Activate a cloak cov-ops or not
Change module scripts

*activates thermal hardeners for incoming flame

Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2017-07-07 20:00:11 UTC
Xzanos wrote:
Well regardless it still happens, and especially with the general UI issues of clicking something and it not activating coming through a gate in a covops is still way to dangerous.

I dont see why you should not be able to do several things while cloaked.

Pre overload modules
Activate a cloak cov-ops or not
Change module scripts



While I agree it would be very nice to be able to pre-heat a module, changing ammo types and activating modules would be horribly OP.

I'd much more prefer to have heat remain persistent; if you pre-heat a module, it stays pre-heated until you spin it down again, regardless of any session changes.
Shadowlance
Damsel Industries
#15 - 2017-07-07 20:24:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Shadowlance
Xzanos wrote:
Well regardless it still happens, and especially with the general UI issues of clicking something and it not activating coming through a gate in a covops is still way to dangerous.

I dont see why you should not be able to do several things while cloaked.

Pre overload modules
Activate a cloak cov-ops or not
Change module scripts

Aside from aspects already discussed here - it's because all this "invisibility and immunity" is just a workaround to ensure you could actually load in a system. Back in days when eve performance wasn't that good - even this amount of time wasn't suffisient sometimes(depends on the camp size on the other side ;) - so by the time your client were loaded in a system you already were in a clonebay.

So in "ideal eve" there shouldn't be any session change timers and invisiblity/immunity mechanics. But it's practically impossible. That's why you can't do anything while in this state.
Cade Windstalker
#16 - 2017-07-07 20:40:57 UTC
Xzanos wrote:
Well regardless it still happens, and especially with the general UI issues of clicking something and it not activating coming through a gate in a covops is still way to dangerous.

I dont see why you should not be able to do several things while cloaked.

Pre overload modules
Activate a cloak cov-ops or not
Change module scripts


Fitting a cloak is not immunity from gameplay, especially not gameplay trying to enter your ship without using the airlock.

As Shadowlance said, the gate cloak is more of a hacky workaround left over from when it routinely took players 15+ seconds to *load the system* after jumping. The reason you can't do anything is so that any extra time you may have under gate cloak doesn't give too much of an advantage.