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I have a whacky thought... Make Muninn a medum drone boat.

Author
Kosoku
3Ra Syndicate
#1 - 2017-06-29 19:15:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Kosoku
In the world HAC, Muninn is in an awkward place. It has more issues than what it has going.

I thought of making Muninn a missile boat but there are two HACs dedicated to missile already: Cerb and Sac.

Then how about making Muninn a drone boat with a catch?

Lore wise, Mimmatar uses three weapons: Projectile, Missile, and Drones. They are mostly focused on projectile and missiles but there are Mimmatar ships that do use drones in both cruiser and battleship line. But none of them has a bonus to drones.

There is only one drone HAC in Isthar and Mimmatar does use drones. But instead of making an identical copy, let's make Muninn specialize in medium drones.


50m3 drone bandwidth with 200m3 dronebay.

15% (or 20%) bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage. Basically make drone DPS not as good as Isthar but close enough in region of 90% or so.

7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed

Three turrets / Three missile points.

4 high | 5 Mid | 6 low

Something along that line.

P.S. Don't kill me for this.
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2017-06-29 19:47:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Old Pervert
Edit:

I just realized the Muninn isn't a missile boat to begin with. Starting from scratch.

What's wrong with the Muninn?
Xzanos
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2017-06-30 14:57:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Xzanos
please no more drone boats!!

But i do agree that the Muninn/ HAC need some kind of rewor. With T3C and T3D T2C have kinda lost alot of their luster.

*activates thermal hardeners for incoming flame

Kosoku
3Ra Syndicate
#4 - 2017-06-30 16:06:03 UTC
Then perhaps just deleting Muninn might be the best.

I searched the forum before posting this. There were numerous suggestions over the years from making it a missile boat to a AC brawler.

All shot down including its original role, arty. So, that basically leaves Muninn nothing. I guess leaving it alone is as good as deleting it.
Xzanos
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2017-06-30 17:17:38 UTC
Kosoku wrote:
Then perhaps just deleting Muninn might be the best.

I searched the forum before posting this. There were numerous suggestions over the years from making it a missile boat to a AC brawler.

All shot down including its original role, arty. So, that basically leaves Muninn nothing. I guess leaving it alone is as good as deleting it.


No one said leave it alone but i dont think this is an inherent issue with the Muninn itself as it is a balancing issue between ships classes in general. There is to much in common with the three ship types I listed previously.

*activates thermal hardeners for incoming flame

Cade Windstalker
#6 - 2017-06-30 17:55:38 UTC
Few problems with this:

You're over by a slot. Drone boats get one less slot than other same-type hulls to make up for Drones not taking any slots, PG, or CPU. The Ishtar for example is a 4/4/6 setup.

You're missing some bonuses here. The Muninn is a HAC, it gets 2 HAC bonuses and 2 Cruiser bonuses.

Your math is bad. The Ishtar gets a 10% per level bonus and a full flight of Heavy Drones, or 125mbit of bandwidth. A 20% per level bonus and only 2 Heavy Drones works out to roughly half the DPS of the Ishtar. On top of that "Ishtar but worse" or "Rattlesnake/Gila but smaller and worse" aren't particularly interesting or compelling roles for a ship. Using Medium Drones doesn't make it any better since Medium Drones have roughly half the base DPS of a Large Drone you're still down 50% of the possible DPS of an Ishtar using Heavy Drones.

Oh and on a lore related note the Minmattar have never been particularly focused on Drones. The only race with a primary focus on Drones is the Gallente, and the Amarr have a secondary focus. None of the other four races has a primary focus on Drones.

Lastly, and probably most crucially, the Muninn doesn't need to stop being a projectile boat. That's never been its problem. It's come in and out of favor as Medium Projectiles have come in and out of favor. They're currently not heavily used so the Muninn has suffered for it, that doesn't mean it needs a complete rework, and it certainly doesn't mean it needs to be a drone boat.
James Zimmer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2017-07-04 03:40:14 UTC
I like whacky ideas. Even if they don't work out, they sometimes give people a fresh way to look at things. The Muninn has issues because it overlaps heavily with Hurricanes and Hurricane Fleet Issues, Hurricanes almost do the same thing for a third of the cost, and Hurricane Fleet Issues just do everything better. In theory, Muninns should sig tank better than battecruisers, but realistically, you're not sig tanking anything smaller than a battleship's guns, and given the popularity of strategic cruiser and battlecruiser fleets, it's not common that undocking a sig-tanking cruiser fleet that has battlecruiser equivalent is really viable. Cerbs only work because they basically do the job of Drakes, but have more range.

Ideally, I think battleships need to get a little bit better in general in order to encourage their use, and maybe a little worse against cruisers in order to provide real incentives to bringing cruiser-sized sig-tankers. If this happened, Muninns in their current form may become viable, and a little bit of a slot layout reshuffle could make them genuinely good.

At the same time, you could give the Muninn a role that doesn't exist in battlecruiser classes, and fix them even without a change to battleships. A drone boat is an idea, but it would compete with Gilas and Ishtars and would be way outside of Minmatar lore, but your suggestion also looks a lot like something that is right in line with Minmatar lore: A split gun/missile/drone setup. There isn't really a BC that fills that role. Maybe a 6 high / 5 medium / 4 low setup with a medium projectile falloff bonus, missile and projectile damage bonuses and a decent drone bay. Maybe 50 bandwidth / 75 drone bay. This would give you a ship with a tolerable shield tank, frightening nuet-proof DPS, but some serious projection issues. It may be tricky to fly, but if you give it enough DPS, I think it could be worth it.
Lienzo
Amanuensis
#8 - 2017-07-04 05:56:17 UTC
I've never been a fan of sniper HACs. Application bonuses are the way to go.

Also, only the Guristas ships do drones properly. All drone cruiser bonuses might as well be to medium drones. Only frigates and destroyers would wield small drones with maximum efficiency. That is a hell of a lot easier to optimize.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#9 - 2017-07-05 13:06:51 UTC
Kosoku wrote:
There is only one drone HAC in Isthar and Mimmatar does use drones. But instead of making an identical copy, let's make Muninn specialize in medium drones.


50m3 drone bandwidth with 200m3 dronebay.

15% (or 20%) bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage. Basically make drone DPS not as good as Isthar but close enough in region of 90% or so.

7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed

Three turrets / Three missile points.

4 high | 5 Mid | 6 low

Something along that line.

P.S. Don't kill me for this.

Several odd things that strike me as I read the OP.

OP wants to make the Muninn into a ship focused on medium drones so they add a heavy drones specific bonus and add nothing that bonuses the mediums specifically.

OP wants to get into the range of 90% of the damage possible with the Ishtar and medium drones so they propose a 15% to 20% per level general drones bonus instead of the 10% that the Ishtar has.

After careful consideration.

-1 - because the OP cannot or will not even look at the bonuses for the other ships mentioned.

-1 - if the OP has not even bothered with the most elemental of research on their idea what else have they overlooked in their quest for gee this would be cool.
Kosoku
3Ra Syndicate
#10 - 2017-07-05 16:54:26 UTC
It is easy to criticize. At least counter my idea with yours instead of just criticizing.

I know my idea isn't remotely perfect. Alas, it was just a starting point. The rest is really up to CCP.
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2017-07-05 17:21:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Matthias Ancaladron
Sacrilege is a shame, I have no t2 maller option for hac that has lasers.
I hate the omen hull. Why can't I yank the laser bonuses off the t2 omen and out it on the sac. Who trains missiles in amarr. :|
Khane Nomad
NovKor Corp.
#12 - 2017-07-06 12:13:22 UTC
the Muninn is fine as it. it has deficiencies but nothing game breaking. if anything you could expand its bandwidth and drone hold and that will be about it.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#13 - 2017-07-06 13:31:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
Kosoku wrote:
It is easy to criticize. At least counter my idea with yours instead of just criticizing.

I know my idea isn't remotely perfect. Alas, it was just a starting point. The rest is really up to CCP.

Your idea and it is your responsibility to help solve the problems / concerns raised, if you are not willing to put forth that effort then your idea can simply die a cold and lonely death here in cyberspace.
No it is not CCP's job to solve the problems / concerns with YOUR idea. Besides that the more complete your idea is and the more answers you have to problems and concerns the better chance you have of CCP taking this idea seriously.

For now and considering that you feel it is CCP's responsibility to work out even fundamental level flaws in your idea I say -1, as in no way in hell.

If you want to work on your idea then here are some more problem areas that you need to work out.

We already have a ship specifically bonus-ed to medium drones what is the justification for another? And more importantly do we even need another medium drones bonus-ed ship in the game?

With only eight HAC in the game why do we need 25% of them to be drones ships?
Related to this if you change the Muninn from an artillery ship to a drones ship what do we do for an artillery based HAC?
If you add a third HAC to the Minmatar lineup to fill the void left by changing the Muninn to drones, what do you add to the other races to balance this? Do we even need to add a third HAC to each of the other races?

To end this if you want positive feedback, if you want ideas to try and balance this then prove to us that you care about your own idea by making an effort to respond to problems / concerns instead of being lazy and telling us it is up to CCP to solve them.