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Factional Warfare Kill Rights
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Agent 5B
Venom and Bullet Corporation
Metropolis Defense
#1 - 2017-06-29 06:06:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Agent 5B
Neutrals getting kill rights on militia in Factional warfare complexes, I find this game mechanism slightly suspect.

Even Kill rights in general there is not much warning that someone has activated one on you. At no time can you get a suspect flag other than that unless you perform an illegal action there and then but with kill right you have to notice the little flag pop up when you have done nothing at all.

Well anyway to cut to the point both times a kill right has been activated on me it was a kill right due to a fight that happened inside a factional warfare complex with someone who is not in factional warfare.

Both times it was activated I died and both times I did not know the kill right had been activated until after the fight was over and both times it was a really bad disadvantage not knowing that one had been activated.

Both times I was really annoyed and ranted on the forum
Cypherous
Liberty Rogues
Aprilon Dynasty
#2 - 2017-06-29 06:56:19 UTC
Agent 5B wrote:
Neutrals getting kill rights on militia in Factional warfare complexes, I find this game mechanism slightly suspect.

Even Kill rights in general there is not much warning that someone has activated one on you. At no time can you get a suspect flag other than that unless you perform an illegal action there and then but with kill right you have to notice the little flag pop up when you have done nothing at all.


Not really, you have done something previously, its like warrants from the police for a crime you committed months ago suddenly being served while you're currently doing nothing wrong, if you're daft enough to be earning killrights against you then you really should be paying much more attention :P
Dravos Tarimus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2017-06-29 06:58:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Dravos Tarimus
Could be fixed by making it 'legal' to shoot neutrals in plexes. Perhaps give them a limited engagement timer. It makes sense after all: if they've actively come in the plex they obviously want to fight, and if you wait for them to shoot first you give them the advantage. It being a criminal act to shoot neutrals in plexes just makes it harder to be in FW because you eventually have to give up high sec (where you sell all your items bought from the LP store) due to sec status hits. Sure you can get around it with alts, but that doesn't legitimise the mechanism that forces you to do that.

Dravos' Diary: A Newbie's Attempts To Git Gud
Agent 5B
Venom and Bullet Corporation
Metropolis Defense
#4 - 2017-06-29 09:35:20 UTC
Cypherous wrote:


Not really, you have done something previously, its like warrants from the police for a crime you committed months ago suddenly being served while you're currently doing nothing wrong, if you're daft enough to be earning killrights against you then you really should be paying much more attention :P


That is incorrect because it is war inside factional warfare complexes not some sneaky neutral pilot picking and choosing his engagements with his blingy ship
Marek Kanenald
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2017-06-29 10:06:44 UTC
To be honest it is pretty stupid that shooting a neutral in a FW complex gives a standing hit and criminal timer.
Agent 5B
Venom and Bullet Corporation
Metropolis Defense
#6 - 2017-06-29 10:27:17 UTC
Marek Kanenald wrote:
To be honest it is pretty stupid that shooting a neutral in a FW complex gives a standing hit and criminal timer.



It's to do with lore and the way Concord and Factions interact you could argue that factions do not have the right to make it illegal to enter that area unauthorized but it does raise the question what the hell is a control bunker ? I mean all this lore has been created because it is what suits the game, I can't see it being that difficult to make that mechanic work any way that would be most appropriate.
Cypherous
Liberty Rogues
Aprilon Dynasty
#7 - 2017-06-29 12:46:57 UTC
Agent 5B wrote:
Cypherous wrote:


Not really, you have done something previously, its like warrants from the police for a crime you committed months ago suddenly being served while you're currently doing nothing wrong, if you're daft enough to be earning killrights against you then you really should be paying much more attention :P


That is incorrect because it is war inside factional warfare complexes not some sneaky neutral pilot picking and choosing his engagements with his blingy ship


Its only FW against legal war targets, neutrals are not flagged for combat and if you choose to engage a neutral you will grant them a killright, this is how it works
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
#8 - 2017-06-29 13:01:57 UTC
Cypherous wrote:
Agent 5B wrote:
Cypherous wrote:


Not really, you have done something previously, its like warrants from the police for a crime you committed months ago suddenly being served while you're currently doing nothing wrong, if you're daft enough to be earning killrights against you then you really should be paying much more attention :P


That is incorrect because it is war inside factional warfare complexes not some sneaky neutral pilot picking and choosing his engagements with his blingy ship


Its only FW against legal war targets, neutrals are not flagged for combat and if you choose to engage a neutral you will grant them a killright, this is how it works


It is how it works.

Doesn't necessarily mean that is how it should work.

I like the idea of FW plexes being a free-for-all space. It's annoying to have to either wait for a neutral to attack or take a standing hit and earn a kill right when those who are obviously looking for action come into the plex.
Revis Owen
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#9 - 2017-06-29 13:19:41 UTC
Dravos Tarimus wrote:
you eventually have to give up high sec (where you sell all your items bought from the LP store) due to sec status hits.

Untrue. I and a lot of other -10s operate freely all day in highsec.

Of course, we've got the Code, which enables such elite levels of play.

Agent of the New Order http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html If you do not have a current Mining Permit, please contact me for issuance.
Cypherous
Liberty Rogues
Aprilon Dynasty
#10 - 2017-06-29 13:38:59 UTC
Scialt wrote:
Cypherous wrote:
Agent 5B wrote:
Cypherous wrote:


Not really, you have done something previously, its like warrants from the police for a crime you committed months ago suddenly being served while you're currently doing nothing wrong, if you're daft enough to be earning killrights against you then you really should be paying much more attention :P


That is incorrect because it is war inside factional warfare complexes not some sneaky neutral pilot picking and choosing his engagements with his blingy ship


Its only FW against legal war targets, neutrals are not flagged for combat and if you choose to engage a neutral you will grant them a killright, this is how it works


It is how it works.

Doesn't necessarily mean that is how it should work.

I like the idea of FW plexes being a free-for-all space. It's annoying to have to either wait for a neutral to attack or take a standing hit and earn a kill right when those who are obviously looking for action come into the plex.


Well that thing exists, its called null sec, however nobody is going to want to give you a "fair" fight, you either deal with an accept the killrights or go do something else, they aren't going to change the FW system anytime soon, and especially not like that, its FACTIONAL warfare not no-mans land
Marcus Binchiette
Federal Vanguard
#11 - 2017-06-29 13:58:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Binchiette
Hi,

I'm in Factional War and I don't get killrights against me. Although, if I did it doesn't really bother me. Because, I'm in lowsec and expect to be engaged by anyone at any time. I normally have my safeties on yellow which allows me to shoot neutral ships, but, not their pods. Never had an issue with killrights. Most of the neutrals that engage me are -5.0 and you don't get killrights against you for shooting those. My understanding is that it is shooting the pod which earns the killright; not the ship. But I could be wrong.

The only pods which I kill are neutrals with security status < -5.0 or enemy war targets. I don't pre-emtively engage neutrals unless they are inside a plex, are an unidentified cyno, engaging in aggressive positioning, or manouvering to cause threat. Aka. If they enter the plex, or move to close range, I will engage them pre-emptively as a matter of personal safety. I have player ships colour highlighted in my overview to highlight low security status, and low standings - and ships in either of these categories are elimitated with extreme prejudice.

In addition to this, allied FW players with a history of AWOX'ing, (that is killing friendly players), are set to terrible standing for everyone in my entire corporation - and my overview is set to highlight terrible standings over FW allies. I will also pre-emptively engage and kill allies with a history of AWOX'ing with extreme prejudice.

***

Yes, I don't like engaging illegal targets - and yes my security status has taken a hit. But this is really the only way to play factional warfare. Yes, I do get extremely annoyed at regular PvP'ers and sometimes wish they would **** off. But to be frank, this is the only way to play faction warfare.

If you're a brawler, sitting on the beacon, and you let a kiter pull range you're dead. If you're a kiter and you let a brawler burn on top of you you're dead. If you're in a sensor damp Maulus, and you let them get target lock.. Guess what, you're dead! Yellow-boxing and waiting for them to take the first shot is more often than not going to get you killed. If they are inside you're plex you shoot them. It's as simple as that.
Agent 5B
Venom and Bullet Corporation
Metropolis Defense
#12 - 2017-06-29 18:10:44 UTC
Marcus Binchiette wrote:
Hi,

I'm in Factional War and I don't get killrights against me. Although, if I did it doesn't really bother me. Because, I'm in lowsec and expect to be engaged by anyone at any time. I normally have my safeties on yellow which allows me to shoot neutral ships, but, not their pods. Never had an issue with killrights. Most of the neutrals that engage me are -5.0 and you don't get killrights against you for shooting those. My understanding is that it is shooting the pod which earns the killright; not the ship. But I could be wrong.

The only pods which I kill are neutrals with security status < -5.0 or enemy war targets. I don't pre-emtively engage neutrals unless they are inside a plex, are an unidentified cyno, engaging in aggressive positioning, or manouvering to cause threat. Aka. If they enter the plex, or move to close range, I will engage them pre-emptively as a matter of personal safety. I have player ships colour highlighted in my overview to highlight low security status, and low standings - and ships in either of these categories are elimitated with extreme prejudice.

In addition to this, allied FW players with a history of AWOX'ing, (that is killing friendly players), are set to terrible standing for everyone in my entire corporation - and my overview is set to highlight terrible standings over FW allies. I will also pre-emptively engage and kill allies with a history of AWOX'ing with extreme prejudice.

***

Yes, I don't like engaging illegal targets - and yes my security status has taken a hit. But this is really the only way to play factional warfare. Yes, I do get extremely annoyed at regular PvP'ers and sometimes wish they would **** off. But to be frank, this is the only way to play faction warfare.

If you're a brawler, sitting on the beacon, and you let a kiter pull range you're dead. If you're a kiter and you let a brawler burn on top of you you're dead. If you're in a sensor damp Maulus, and you let them get target lock.. Guess what, you're dead! Yellow-boxing and waiting for them to take the first shot is more often than not going to get you killed. If they are inside you're plex you shoot them. It's as simple as that.


Yes kill rights are only for pod kills, no red safety is not only for pod kills, awoxing is a slightly more inherent problem created by FW lacking any sapient response to counter it from it from being blatantly manipulated. Not sure if that is the same topic though.
Dravos Tarimus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2017-06-29 22:34:17 UTC
Revis Owen wrote:
Dravos Tarimus wrote:
you eventually have to give up high sec (where you sell all your items bought from the LP store) due to sec status hits.

Untrue. I and a lot of other -10s operate freely all day in highsec.

But then the space popo come after you and blow up your ship.

Dravos' Diary: A Newbie's Attempts To Git Gud
Marcus Binchiette
Federal Vanguard
#14 - 2017-06-30 12:23:52 UTC
Agent 5B wrote:
Yes kill rights are only for pod kills, no red safety is not only for pod kills, awoxing is a slightly more inherent problem created by FW lacking any sapient response to counter it from it from being blatantly manipulated. Not sure if that is the same topic though.


Well it is a similar topic as it has to do with the engagement of illegal targets. AWOX'ing is particularly troublesome, as it is often facilitated by people's overview settings - who hide blues on their PvP overview tab so that they can see only enemies. As such it is entierly possible for a purple to slip into your plex without you even noticing - unless you are on your toes. This is why I set them to terrible standing. It overrides the purple so that they show up on my overview.

I keep our corporate standings updated with any reports of AWOXing on the militia chanel. If I can confirm an AWOX on zkill that person will recieve terrible standing - and it is the pollicy of my corporation to illegally engage anyone with terrible standing. Whether or not they are in the militia.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that legality of engagements means very little in lowsec and in faction war. It is the wild west. Yes there are rules, but, people don't follow them. If you go into the Faction Warzone expecting people to respect the RoE, you're going to be fightiing with one hand behind tied behind your back.
Agent 5B
Venom and Bullet Corporation
Metropolis Defense
#15 - 2017-06-30 15:52:24 UTC
Marcus Binchiette wrote:


Well it is a similar topic as it has to do with the engagement of illegal targets. AWOX'ing is particularly troublesome, as it is often facilitated by people's overview settings - who hide blues on their PvP overview tab so that they can see only enemies. As such it is entierly possible for a purple to slip into your plex without you even noticing - unless you are on your toes. This is why I set them to terrible standing. It overrides the purple so that they show up on my overview.
.


I don't bother with that I usually make enough effort to check that an awoxer is genuine and not just a new player with a bad overview that I will not forget a real awoxer.

There is no difference between a player in your militia and a neutral player in terms of them being a legal target which I guess leads onto the topic of standing hits which also have issues. As far as I know standing hits with NPC corporations do not care if the target was legal or not.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#16 - 2017-06-30 16:23:18 UTC
you did a naughty thing to earn a kill right against you, no reason to complain when it gets activated at a later date. If you don't want any kill rights don't go criminal.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Marek Kanenald
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2017-06-30 17:33:50 UTC
Marcus Binchiette wrote:
Agent 5B wrote:
Yes kill rights are only for pod kills, no red safety is not only for pod kills, awoxing is a slightly more inherent problem created by FW lacking any sapient response to counter it from it from being blatantly manipulated. Not sure if that is the same topic though.


Well it is a similar topic as it has to do with the engagement of illegal targets. AWOX'ing is particularly troublesome, as it is often facilitated by people's overview settings - who hide blues on their PvP overview tab so that they can see only enemies. As such it is entierly possible for a purple to slip into your plex without you even noticing - unless you are on your toes. This is why I set them to terrible standing. It overrides the purple so that they show up on my overview.

I keep our corporate standings updated with any reports of AWOXing on the militia chanel. If I can confirm an AWOX on zkill that person will recieve terrible standing - and it is the pollicy of my corporation to illegally engage anyone with terrible standing. Whether or not they are in the militia.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that legality of engagements means very little in lowsec and in faction war. It is the wild west. Yes there are rules, but, people don't follow them. If you go into the Faction Warzone expecting people to respect the RoE, you're going to be fightiing with one hand behind tied behind your back.


But a FW overview tab which shows blues is just common sense anyway....
Dravos Tarimus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2017-06-30 19:51:13 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
you did a naughty thing to earn a kill right against you, no reason to complain when it gets activated at a later date. If you don't want any kill rights don't go criminal.

I tried to avoid shooting/scramming them first but then I just gave them the advantage by letting them MWD to kiting range which subsequently led to me losing my ship. Letting them shoot first isn't a viable option.

Give them a limited activation timer. They've come into the plexes because they want to fight. It's similar to duelling in high sec: 'we both actively consent to fight each other and so there should be no sec status hit'. It is inconsistent that duelling is a feature of the game but the mechanic is not recreated when players who both wish to PvP go into a specially designated PvP arena to fight each other.

Dravos' Diary: A Newbie's Attempts To Git Gud
Agent 5B
Venom and Bullet Corporation
Metropolis Defense
#19 - 2017-07-02 04:55:14 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
you did a naughty thing to earn a kill right against you, no reason to complain when it gets activated at a later date. If you don't want any kill rights don't go criminal.



I think that is what this thread is about , the fact that is more difficult than it should be for factional warfare players.
Agent 5B
Venom and Bullet Corporation
Metropolis Defense
#20 - 2017-07-04 05:37:03 UTC
Control Bunkers should count as null security as Concord should not interfere with what goes on there.
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