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Nion by
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2017-06-13 11:09:24 UTC
i came back into eve since december 2016 after a brake of about 2 years. when i came back the game was ok-ish. now i see its a bloody mess.

first of all lets talk about skill injectors. ok so this makes the game pretty much play to win. people that want to spend a lot of money IRL can pretty much create a character that can fly a carrier/super carrier in just several minutes. they buy plex then they buy skill injectors. this defeats the whole purpose of eve training. adding on people that do this either know what they are doing which means they already playing eve or they dont meaning that get into that shiny ship and a few moments later they lose that ship. i wonder how that impacts in the economy.

second point i want to adress is warfare. here i will talk about the factional warfare and null sec altho i dont have much knowledge about factional warfare. so lets starts with FW which from my point of view is pointless as holding a system in null. normaly all people want to win so what they do when they are in ammar FW well they simply join minmmatar to simply win a make money, so maybe this the whole system is a bit ****** up because there is no goal in factional warfare. now i know there might be more but how i said i m not a specialist. anyone that wants to correct me and say more about it free to do so in the post. now lets talk about null sec. null sec and sovereignty. the problem here is the one in FW. there is no point in taking anyone sov because everyone now upgrades their and have a nice system for their own, which is not such a bad idea, but again whats the purpose of taking sov from somebody if we have the same piece of pie. i might be wrong here clarify on this. another thing is the sov mechanics which i dont understand at all. they are terrible, for example you can anchor any structure in any system doesnt matter if that system belongs to you or not, and some might say but you have a timer on that, yes but this whole thing defeats the purpose on owning a system. i get it that CCP wants to make null sec be accesible for everyone but when the balance between attacker and defender is not there the whole mechanic is ****** up. the type of ships that attacker or defender fly in its another story you need make the balance be 50% for both parties attackers/defenders. i know in the dominion sov mechanics the alliance with bigger fleet and ships would mean they won the grid, field, systems, etc. which is not really balanced but you have to keep in mind that an alliance needs to have the means to defend their systems otherwise, why they are owning the system? i know that for CCP this is a big dillemma because i cant find out my self an idea for sov mechanics so small alliances benefit for null sec space. people that want to express their ideas about are free to do so. i m not an expert and i know in eve there are players far more experienced than me.

so dear CCP stop tying to milk money from us because the playerbase will always want to buy plex instead buy a subcription with real life money. yes i buy subscription with real life money, but i love this game and i m willing to pay it every month because its awesome and normally i dont pay for a game so this says a lot about me. make the game be playble and enjoyable. listen to your playerbase, i know some will want stuff only for the sake of their big alliances but some will come with nice and big ideas for the game. i remember not long you CCP used to listen to the player base and see their reaction first when implementing a new patch with changes. i dont want this game to die and yes if you CCP will go this way the game will probably die because i see more and more people angry who willing to leave unless you change this. if they do this you know what this means, less subscriptions and less money for you and i believe you dont want this. be smart CCP use your logic you will see the benefits from it trust me.

i hope this post doesnt get deleted or gets move to another place so people cant read. if this doesnt happen i want every post their ideas and be free to comment. i dont care about negative talk back. yes there are more stuff that i didnt comment about and yes i write this as a reply to the carrier nerf and i dont fly one because i dont have the skills for that but i do care of what happens in this game.
Nion by
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2 - 2017-06-13 11:11:05 UTC
P.S. sorry for my english i know i still have to work on it but i m not perfect.
Cypherous
Liberty Rogues
Aprilon Dynasty
#3 - 2017-06-13 11:36:09 UTC
Quote:
so dear CCP stop tying to milk money from us because the playerbase will always want to buy plex instead buy a subcription with real life money.


PLEX cost money, and infact it actually makes CCP more money for someone to use PLEX to keep their account active than for them to get paid for a subscription as 500 PLEX costs more than 1 month of game time

Skill injectors don't make SP out of nowhere though, players need to use skill extractors to create skill injectors, in this case there is normally a loss of SPin the game in total as there are diminishing returns on injectors depending on the SP you have, for example i fall under the lowest bracket of SP gained form an injector which means almost half the SP used to create that injector just vanishes in to the ether

Quote:
i dont want this game to die and yes if you CCP will go this way the game will probably die because i see more and more people angry who willing to leave unless you change this.


The drop in active players isn't really that massive, there are still enough players here to keep the game going strong for a long while yet, yes there is a decline but there have been far worse declines in the last 5 years than there are now so i doubt very much that the "EVE is dying" argument is any more valid than it has been since EVE launched all those many years ago :P

Sov warfare has, and generally always will be, about taking something someone else owns away from them, FW is pretty much just a way to supply certain faction ships cheaply while giving some people access to easy to find PvP, its not perfect but there isn't much you can really do about that
Corey Fumimasa
The Organization of Thunder and Lightning
Space Quacks Alliance
#4 - 2017-06-13 11:44:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
TL;DR

Skill injectors are pay to win.

Something is wrong with faction warfare, although the op does not have much knowledge of that.

Sov is broken; there is no point in "owning" a system if anyone can come in and hang a structure.

Eve is dying.


Hmm, that's 5 minutes I will never get back. Well played OP.
Nion by
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2017-06-13 11:45:29 UTC
[quote=Cypherous][quote]
Skill injectors don't make SP out of nowhere though, players need to use skill extractors to create skill injectors, in this case there is normally a loss of SPin the game in total as there are diminishing returns on injectors depending on the SP you have, for example i fall under the lowest bracket of SP gained form an injector which means almost half the SP used to create that injector just vanishes in to the ether

alright that i didnt know. its something i should had read more about it. also i m not saying i have a problem with plex at all only with skill injectors altho it seems from your explanation that they arent how i imagined. thank for the info.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#6 - 2017-06-13 13:13:19 UTC
Nion by wrote:
ok so this makes the game pretty much play to win.

I must admit, I do like play to win.

Just never figured out how to win.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Yang Aurilen
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#7 - 2017-06-13 13:29:03 UTC
Before you whine about something at least have a basic understanding on what you're whining about.

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!

Nion by
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2017-06-13 13:31:07 UTC
i dont know you but if i dont struggle in a game i dont see the point in playing it. for me a game that becomes easy is failing it purpose as game. second i dont want to invest more money into a game that i m already playing for.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#9 - 2017-06-13 13:58:10 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Nion by wrote:
ok so this makes the game pretty much play to win.

I must admit, I do like play to win.

Just never figured out how to win.

Just my thought. I must be doing it wrong I guess.

Remove standings and insurance.

Proxicmo Utrigas
Doomheim
#10 - 2017-06-14 12:14:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Proxicmo Utrigas
A someone bran spanking new to the game. I can understand this skill injector thing. I have a old account with WOT. I feel I'm above average at that and have the garage to back it up. BUT if i was new to that game and had no way to get into the competitive scope of the game if thats what I wanted to do. I would need to play for a long ass time to get to that level. This game has been around a wile and total noobs could use a hand up. BUT it doesn't change that they are noobs and will die like them not knowing enough about the game. In WOT a person who has not played 1 game can drop 80 ish $ on a premium tier 8 tank play it and die like idiot.

I would purpose to call it pay to catch up with the years gone by. I my self enjoy the discovery of a new gaming experience so I'm not going to throw money at this yet. As I have a lot of learning to do. But if I end up joining the socal PVP aspect of this game in earnest I might not want to get my ass totally handed to me buzzing around in a starter civilian shuttle.

To the Corporation that ends up hiring my sorry ass not going to be much help for a long time as the human world has its demands
Keno Skir
#11 - 2017-06-14 18:17:31 UTC
Cypherous wrote:
Skill injectors don't make SP out of nowhere though, players need to use skill extractors to create skill injectors, in this case there is normally a loss of SPin the game in total as there are diminishing returns on injectors depending on the SP you have, for example i fall under the lowest bracket of SP gained form an injector which means almost half the SP used to create that injector just vanishes in to the ether


I mean, purely currently a lot of folks are creating SP from nowhere. They might have to buy extractors, but the SP they're extracting (ghost training) was not paid for with PLEX or with Cash. This has been happening en-masse for some 6 or 7 months now generating trillions of SP for free. So even with diminishing returns for us vets it's still free SP flooding the economy.
Vanessa Celtis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2017-06-14 23:45:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Vanessa Celtis
Nion by wrote:
i came back into eve since december 2016 after a brake of about 2 years. when i came back the game was ok-ish. now i see its a bloody mess.

first of all lets talk about skill injectors. ok so this makes the game pretty much play to win. people that want to spend a lot of money IRL can pretty much create a character that can fly a carrier/super carrier in just several minutes. they buy plex then they buy skill injectors. this defeats the whole purpose of eve training. adding on people that do this either know what they are doing which means they already playing eve or they dont meaning that get into that shiny ship and a few moments later they lose that ship. i wonder how that impacts in the economy.

second point i want to adress is warfare. here i will talk about the factional warfare and null sec altho i dont have much knowledge about factional warfare. so lets starts with FW which from my point of view is pointless as holding a system in null. normaly all people want to win so what they do when they are in ammar FW well they simply join minmmatar to simply win a make money, so maybe this the whole system is a bit ****** up because there is no goal in factional warfare. now i know there might be more but how i said i m not a specialist. anyone that wants to correct me and say more about it free to do so in the post. now lets talk about null sec. null sec and sovereignty. the problem here is the one in FW. there is no point in taking anyone sov because everyone now upgrades their and have a nice system for their own, which is not such a bad idea, but again whats the purpose of taking sov from somebody if we have the same piece of pie. i might be wrong here clarify on this. another thing is the sov mechanics which i dont understand at all. they are terrible, for example you can anchor any structure in any system doesnt matter if that system belongs to you or not, and some might say but you have a timer on that, yes but this whole thing defeats the purpose on owning a system. i get it that CCP wants to make null sec be accesible for everyone but when the balance between attacker and defender is not there the whole mechanic is ****** up. the type of ships that attacker or defender fly in its another story you need make the balance be 50% for both parties attackers/defenders. i know in the dominion sov mechanics the alliance with bigger fleet and ships would mean they won the grid, field, systems, etc. which is not really balanced but you have to keep in mind that an alliance needs to have the means to defend their systems otherwise, why they are owning the system? i know that for CCP this is a big dillemma because i cant find out my self an idea for sov mechanics so small alliances benefit for null sec space. people that want to express their ideas about are free to do so. i m not an expert and i know in eve there are players far more experienced than me.

so dear CCP stop tying to milk money from us because the playerbase will always want to buy plex instead buy a subcription with real life money. yes i buy subscription with real life money, but i love this game and i m willing to pay it every month because its awesome and normally i dont pay for a game so this says a lot about me. make the game be playble and enjoyable. listen to your playerbase, i know some will want stuff only for the sake of their big alliances but some will come with nice and big ideas for the game. i remember not long you CCP used to listen to the player base and see their reaction first when implementing a new patch with changes. i dont want this game to die and yes if you CCP will go this way the game will probably die because i see more and more people angry who willing to leave unless you change this. if they do this you know what this means, less subscriptions and less money for you and i believe you dont want this. be smart CCP use your logic you will see the benefits from it trust me.

i hope this post doesnt get deleted or gets move to another place so people cant read. if this doesnt happen i want every post their ideas and be free to comment. i dont care about negative talk back. yes there are more stuff that i didnt comment about and yes i write this as a reply to the carrier nerf and i dont fly one because i dont have the skills for that but i do care of what happens in this game.



Are you some kind of super business analyst?

EVE is a business in-game and off-game. Buying PLEX's from CCP store with real money and converting that to Skill Injectors or anything else contributes directly to CCP paying the salaries for its employees and Devs, so that we can continue to enjoy the game. Keep this in mind...

It is pay to win in a certain way, but it won't teach you how to play properly and win with minimum in-game resources.
Blade Darth
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#13 - 2017-06-15 01:25:03 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
TL;DR

Skill injectors are pay to win.

Something is wrong with faction warfare, although the op does not have much knowledge of that.

Sov is broken; there is no point in "owning" a system if anyone can come in and hang a structure.

Eve is dying.


Hmm, that's 5 minutes I will never get back. Well played OP.

thx.

There was character bazar since.... forever? skill injectors are just a more refined version of that.
Idk whats wrong with FW, as OP, I have no clue about low sec, but unlike OP I won't talk about something I got no clue about.
sov and structures are getting updates, slowly but surely. the goal is to make everything player controlled including gates
It's dying much slower than other mmo's thou. Most of those released in early 2000's are not around and people have no idea they even existed. A lot of those released around 2010 too. "300k players box office hit!!!!111" at release and couple months later its a ghost town and company goes bankrupt. I prefer 30k and for the game to last 20 years.
Nion by
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#14 - 2017-06-15 11:41:07 UTC
Vanessa Celtis wrote:
Nion by wrote:
i came back into eve since december 2016 after a brake of about 2 years. when i came back the game was ok-ish. now i see its a bloody mess.

first of all lets talk about skill injectors. ok so this makes the game pretty much play to win. people that want to spend a lot of money IRL can pretty much create a character that can fly a carrier/super carrier in just several minutes. they buy plex then they buy skill injectors. this defeats the whole purpose of eve training. adding on people that do this either know what they are doing which means they already playing eve or they dont meaning that get into that shiny ship and a few moments later they lose that ship. i wonder how that impacts in the economy.

second point i want to adress is warfare. here i will talk about the factional warfare and null sec altho i dont have much knowledge about factional warfare. so lets starts with FW which from my point of view is pointless as holding a system in null. normaly all people want to win so what they do when they are in ammar FW well they simply join minmmatar to simply win a make money, so maybe this the whole system is a bit ****** up because there is no goal in factional warfare. now i know there might be more but how i said i m not a specialist. anyone that wants to correct me and say more about it free to do so in the post. now lets talk about null sec. null sec and sovereignty. the problem here is the one in FW. there is no point in taking anyone sov because everyone now upgrades their and have a nice system for their own, which is not such a bad idea, but again whats the purpose of taking sov from somebody if we have the same piece of pie. i might be wrong here clarify on this. another thing is the sov mechanics which i dont understand at all. they are terrible, for example you can anchor any structure in any system doesnt matter if that system belongs to you or not, and some might say but you have a timer on that, yes but this whole thing defeats the purpose on owning a system. i get it that CCP wants to make null sec be accesible for everyone but when the balance between attacker and defender is not there the whole mechanic is ****** up. the type of ships that attacker or defender fly in its another story you need make the balance be 50% for both parties attackers/defenders. i know in the dominion sov mechanics the alliance with bigger fleet and ships would mean they won the grid, field, systems, etc. which is not really balanced but you have to keep in mind that an alliance needs to have the means to defend their systems otherwise, why they are owning the system? i know that for CCP this is a big dillemma because i cant find out my self an idea for sov mechanics so small alliances benefit for null sec space. people that want to express their ideas about are free to do so. i m not an expert and i know in eve there are players far more experienced than me.

so dear CCP stop tying to milk money from us because the playerbase will always want to buy plex instead buy a subcription with real life money. yes i buy subscription with real life money, but i love this game and i m willing to pay it every month because its awesome and normally i dont pay for a game so this says a lot about me. make the game be playble and enjoyable. listen to your playerbase, i know some will want stuff only for the sake of their big alliances but some will come with nice and big ideas for the game. i remember not long you CCP used to listen to the player base and see their reaction first when implementing a new patch with changes. i dont want this game to die and yes if you CCP will go this way the game will probably die because i see more and more people angry who willing to leave unless you change this. if they do this you know what this means, less subscriptions and less money for you and i believe you dont want this. be smart CCP use your logic you will see the benefits from it trust me.

i hope this post doesnt get deleted or gets move to another place so people cant read. if this doesnt happen i want every post their ideas and be free to comment. i dont care about negative talk back. yes there are more stuff that i didnt comment about and yes i write this as a reply to the carrier nerf and i dont fly one because i dont have the skills for that but i do care of what happens in this game.



Are you some kind of super business analyst?

EVE is a business in-game and off-game. Buying PLEX's from CCP store with real money and converting that to Skill Injectors or anything else contributes directly to CCP paying the salaries for its employees and Devs, so that we can continue to enjoy the game. Keep this in mind...

It is pay to win in a certain way, but it won't teach you how to play properly and win with minimum in-game resources.


i still think ruins the game somehow but hey this is my opinion i can be worng i wont deny so.
Aeryn Maricadie
Magister Mortalis.
Undead Nation
#15 - 2017-06-15 13:21:10 UTC
First off, skill injectors. Not really a problem. I seriously doubt many people have actually dumped a ton of cash on plex just to train all the way up to a Super ratter with injectors. If that was happening in any meaningful numbers the price of plex would crash, because that would take a lot of plex. As has been pointed out it is not like people couldn't always just buy a super pilot on the character bazaar before. The extractors also actually drain SP so eventually it will correct itself as the supply of available SP dries up the cost will go up. The ghost training thing probably does need to be fixed, by making extractors only usable by Omegas. The cost of plexing then extracting actually makes it a loss to do so. However this would be a double edged sword because it would drive up the price of the injectors pricing people out of the market for ISK. This would concentrate SP more towards older vets or at least those making tons of money already. On the whole I don't really think it is a major problem.

Secondly, Faction Wars. Faction wars are cyclical and that is a good thing. When one faction dominates the prices of those faction Items will fall as surpluses build up, prices will go up for the out of power faction as supply dwindles. Eventually as has always happened people will switch to the other side to make more money and during the switch lots of good fights will be had. Yes when one side dominates it may get a little boring as people just grind the Loyalty Points, but the harder they grind the quicker it reverts. It will correct itself (looking at you Amarr) like it always has.

Finally, not entirely sure what you were on about with the SOV it was a bit hard to understand. But basically the problem with the EVE economy is the lack of destruction vs massive production. A lot of that blame falls on the recent changes making offensive actions very difficult with little reward which is what you seem to be hinting at. Not just SOV mechanics, but Citadels and their ridiculous timers plus Asset Safety.

Also I have always thought local was a problem too. Local favors established entities way too much and hampers guerilla warfare, this is what has truly made Null inaccessible to people that aren't in an Alliance. It is hard enough to fly through all the bloody gate camps, add a bright flashing sign telling everyone that someone has arrived and needs to be hunted down does an intrepid capsuleer no favors. This is why Big blocs are able to lock whole regions down and farm them without much risk, for more on that topic I suggest hitting up the AFK cloaking thread, which is about to hit 500 pages.
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#16 - 2017-06-15 13:33:41 UTC
I'm just going to talk about skill injectors to start with.

I am a player that was active in the 2005-2007 period, and to be honest at that point one annoyance with Eve was that there was no way to catch up skill wise.

In other games, advancement in skill was directly tied to play time and there was a cap. So you could always have the option of catching up if you invested the time.

In eve back in the mid 2000's... there wasn't a way. The guy who started 2 years earlier would always have 2 years more training time with no way to ever catch up. I ended up deciding to give up on the idea of flying capital ships so I could eventually pull even in other areas by focusing on those areas (besides... back then they said there's only ever be 5-7 Titans in game).

Skill injectors addressed that. You COULD grind to catch up (by grinding for isk and using that isk to by injectors). You were no longer forever locked into a skill hierarchy depending on your time of subscription.

Did it put a "pay to win" in place (when it comes to number of skill points)? Yes it did. But that change also added "play to win" (by grinding isk to buy injectors). Before the situation was "join early and don't quit to win".
Nion by
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2017-06-19 23:03:30 UTC
Scialt wrote:
I'm just going to talk about skill injectors to start with.

I am a player that was active in the 2005-2007 period, and to be honest at that point one annoyance with Eve was that there was no way to catch up skill wise.

In other games, advancement in skill was directly tied to play time and there was a cap. So you could always have the option of catching up if you invested the time.

In eve back in the mid 2000's... there wasn't a way. The guy who started 2 years earlier would always have 2 years more training time with no way to ever catch up. I ended up deciding to give up on the idea of flying capital ships so I could eventually pull even in other areas by focusing on those areas (besides... back then they said there's only ever be 5-7 Titans in game).

Skill injectors addressed that. You COULD grind to catch up (by grinding for isk and using that isk to by injectors). You were no longer forever locked into a skill hierarchy depending on your time of subscription.

Did it put a "pay to win" in place (when it comes to number of skill points)? Yes it did. But that change also added "play to win" (by grinding isk to buy injectors). Before the situation was "join early and don't quit to win".


yeah ive been talking with people from my alliance about this lately. i agree with you one half it solves one issue altho it seems its pay to win. now its this pay to win nature acceptable to the point where new people wont quit the game so easely. in this case i accept it. new blood is always good for the game.
Vortexo VonBrenner
Doomheim
#18 - 2017-06-19 23:09:49 UTC
Op, you are 100% correct!

This is outrageous!

This is too far!

Can I have your stuff, please?


Nion by
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#19 - 2017-06-19 23:12:11 UTC
Vortexo VonBrenner wrote:
Op, you are 100% correct!

This is outrageous!

This is too far!

Can I have your stuff, please?




what the hell mate? XD
KaarBaak
Squirrel Team
#20 - 2017-06-20 19:23:31 UTC
Cypherous wrote:

The drop in active players isn't really that massive, there are still enough players here to keep the game going strong for a long while yet, yes there is a decline but there have been far worse declines in the last 5 years than there are now so i doubt very much that the "EVE is dying" argument is any more valid than it has been since EVE launched all those many years ago :P



Point to the part on the graph where the decline was "far worse" in the last 5 years?

KB

Dum Spiro Spero

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