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Conditional Delayed Local for all Empire/K-space
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Martin Vanzyl
EVE University
Ivy League
#1 - 2017-06-14 19:10:54 UTC
The idea is to nerf the practical omnipotent intel that Local in K-space afford in partnership with 3rd Party Intel tools, conditionally.

Condition 1: You take a wormhole and emerge into hisec/losec/null k-space - the Local channel will not register your presence until you appear on grid with a stargate, station, citadel, ship or anything that is connected to the 'fluid router network'.

Condition 2: You take a Black Ops bridge to a covert cyno. Same deal. You don't appear in Local until you're on grid with some of the system infrastructure or inhabitants.

In addition, make BLOPS actually worthy of its name, ie. allow covert cyno in hisec - with the caveat that if its lit on grid with system infrastructure, that it provokes a faction police response that attacks the ship lighting the covert cyno. And the BLOPS itself still has to be in losec/null.

Some Consequences of this:

  • Hisec station gamers/campers can be surprise attacked with favorable astrographical conditions (losec/null within BLOPS range)
  • Favorable wormhole will allow the same, and the hisec campers will not know that your fleet is coming until you come out of warp and land on the station or gate with them.
  • Naturally the same Delayed Conditional Local will apply to null and lowsec, and will delay the omnipotence of intel tools/channels.
  • Bots that are scanning Local can be surprised and killed.
  • Ratters that are under perfect intel umbrella is no longer so perfect...and can also be surprised, unless they are actually paying attention to dscan.




Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#2 - 2017-06-14 19:15:08 UTC
Martin Vanzyl wrote:
In addition, make BLOPS actually worthy of its name, ie. allow covert cyno in hisec - with the caveat that if its lit on grid with system infrastructure, that it provokes a faction police response that attacks the ship lighting the covert cyno. And the BLOPS itself still has to be in losec/null.

Still? Did you know that you can bridge from highsec? ...

There's also a thread for this. Although the only response you'll get there is tears from the crowd that want 100% safe ratting space.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#3 - 2017-06-14 19:22:34 UTC
Martin Vanzyl wrote:
stuff


Every time this comes up (at minimum once per week), I say the same thing. As long as both parties have the same lack of local, I'm cool with it. Once you as a hunter have to probe every system just to see if someone's even there to hunt, you'll be begging for free instant intel to speed up your roam.

Regarding your last post about dscan, you're completely wrong. And I'm not saying it's a bad thing, don't get me wrong, but dscan only helps when you're fighting "typical" ships.

Anything with a covops cloak you'd never see coming. Combat recons too, if they were quick to warp on you before they showed up in local.

As Linus said though, there's already a thread for this topic.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#4 - 2017-06-14 19:33:36 UTC
Martin Vanzyl wrote:


Condition 1: You take a wormhole and emerge into hisec/losec/null k-space - the Local channel will not register your presence until you appear on grid with a stargate, station, citadel, ship or anything that is connected to the 'fluid router network'.

Condition 2: You take a Black Ops bridge to a covert cyno. Same deal. You don't appear in Local until you're on grid with some of the system infrastructure or inhabitants.




I am assuming that in both of these cases, the droppers also do not get access to the local channel - correct?

Or do they just magically get full-intel from the "fluid router network" while simultaneously masking their own presence from it?

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#5 - 2017-06-15 00:05:12 UTC
Just get rid of local in K space, default everyone to Constellation instead.
Now you no longer get perfect intel of who is in your system. It's also no longer a game of 1000 intel alts watching every local.
And since it already exists no new mechanics or dev work is needed,
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#6 - 2017-06-15 02:03:45 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
Every time this comes up (at minimum once per week), I say the same thing. As long as both parties have the same lack of local, I'm cool with it. Once you as a hunter have to probe every system just to see if someone's even there to hunt, you'll be begging for free instant intel to speed up your roam.


Thanks. I needed a laugh. Hunters would be more than fine with this. The only people who would complain are sov null alliances who want to earn isk risk free. It takes a few seconds, maybe, to find out if someone hostile is in system without local.

Literally the only people wanting to protect local chat in null are ratters and miners.
Aeryn Maricadie
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2017-06-15 08:43:35 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Old Pervert wrote:
Every time this comes up (at minimum once per week), I say the same thing. As long as both parties have the same lack of local, I'm cool with it. Once you as a hunter have to probe every system just to see if someone's even there to hunt, you'll be begging for free instant intel to speed up your roam.


Thanks. I needed a laugh. Hunters would be more than fine with this. The only people who would complain are sov null alliances who want to earn isk risk free. It takes a few seconds, maybe, to find out if someone hostile is in system without local.

Literally the only people wanting to protect local chat in null are ratters and miners.

Sounds like that dude never heard of dscan, mustve lived in kspace too long.
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#8 - 2017-06-15 10:11:04 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Just get rid of local in K space, default everyone to Constellation instead.
Now you no longer get perfect intel of who is in your system. It's also no longer a game of 1000 intel alts watching every local.
And since it already exists no new mechanics or dev work is needed,


screw that lets make it region wide, that way every region with a trade hub will get the spam, or better yet make it eve wide.

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#9 - 2017-06-15 13:53:50 UTC
I am going to place my standard answer to this type of idea here.

NO to your delayed local idea, why you ask?

In high sec local is the ONLY intel tool many / most pilots have at there disposal since probes are not practical or even possible on many of the ships people fly. Unless you specifically exempt high sec from your delayed local idea this is the only reason needed to determine that it is a really bad idea.

Small roaming groups in low sec would be disproportionately affected in a negative way by this idea since local is a major portion of the intel tools they have at their disposal. This leads to a question, would you be willing to serve as your small roaming groups scan pilot knowing that it would significantly impact your ability to get in on any kills?

Worm holes do not have local so why not spend your time there if you think no local is such a good idea.

And that brings us to nul sec. In those areas of EvE I have no problem with no local or delayed local as long as it affects ALL players equally. Yes I do believe that those who control space should be able to set up a network of structures that provide for a local function as long as those structures are easily placed and online quickly so that an attacking group has equal access to information. And to that end I would think that a structure that tapped into the systems set up by those who control the space would be best simply because that guarantees that both sides have the same information available to them.

No this is not real life and I do not care how intel works in real life because nothing intel related in EvE works like it does in real life anyway so why should this.
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2017-06-15 14:23:04 UTC
Aeryn Maricadie wrote:
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Old Pervert wrote:
Every time this comes up (at minimum once per week), I say the same thing. As long as both parties have the same lack of local, I'm cool with it. Once you as a hunter have to probe every system just to see if someone's even there to hunt, you'll be begging for free instant intel to speed up your roam.


Thanks. I needed a laugh. Hunters would be more than fine with this. The only people who would complain are sov null alliances who want to earn isk risk free. It takes a few seconds, maybe, to find out if someone hostile is in system without local.

Literally the only people wanting to protect local chat in null are ratters and miners.

Sounds like that dude never heard of dscan, mustve lived in kspace too long.


I am in sov null. I don't object, because we maintain intel. We usually have 3-4 people perched in cloaked ships on entry points, and we roll holes.

The loss of local as intel when I'm financing my pvp is inconsequential to me.

The loss of local as intel when we're looking for a fight (and not a blob we can't win against) is a substantially more annoying concept, and the biggest reason why I always use Jspace as a transit system to low and null. Not knocking on jspace, that's how it was designed.

Consider delayed local if you were roaming into our pocket:

You jump into system, launch probes, find nothing. You don't find the cloaky eyes that are copying and pasting your dscan.me to the standing fleet.

Speed is and always will be of the essence in a roam. The slower you are, the more likely you are to get blobbed. So you move on further into the pocket, to try and find a kill before everyone's docked up.

You enter into the next system, everyone will be docked up and shipped into whatever response the FC calls for - be it T3Ds, cruisers, battlecruisers, or carriers. Once again you scan, find nobody. Odds are, FC will have called for carriers if you've brought something worth fighting. And they just cynoed in behind you, with dictors setting up drag bubbles.

You proceed through the pocket, not finding anyone, because we had intel on you already. You may hang around long enough to see people in local, but they're all obviously docked because you have probes.

So you make your way out. You know there are people docked, so speed is again of the essence. Hopefully you have a cepter scouting for you so that they can warn you that you're about to get camped in or dunked, because that's what's about to happen.

The moral of this thought exercise is that locals will always have intel. Always. You'll be shooting yourself in the foot.
Aeryn Maricadie
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2017-06-15 14:33:50 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
I am going to place my standard answer to this type of idea here.

NO to your delayed local idea, why you ask?

In high sec local is the ONLY intel tool many / most pilots have at there disposal since probes are not practical or even possible on many of the ships people fly. Unless you specifically exempt high sec from your delayed local idea this is the only reason needed to determine that it is a really bad idea.

Small roaming groups in low sec would be disproportionately affected in a negative way by this idea since local is a major portion of the intel tools they have at their disposal. This leads to a question, would you be willing to serve as your small roaming groups scan pilot knowing that it would significantly impact your ability to get in on any kills?

Worm holes do not have local so why not spend your time there if you think no local is such a good idea.

.


1- D-Scan and probes work on every ship exactly the same in Hi Sec, Lo Sec, Null, and WH. The only things that would change in Hi Sec are that hunters would have to actually search a system for War targets, which would be counterbalanced by the fact that the War Targets would not be immediately warned to dock up. This would make for much more interesting gameplay than the current dynamic which is jump into the system and look for flashies in the text box. It also wouldn't make a damn bit of difference in Gate-camping and Hub Humping.

2- Small roaming groups in lo-sec would be just fine, they would again just have to actually search a system with D-Scan for targets, like most ought to be doing already anyway. Remember that the loss of intel works both ways, a scout may have to take more time looking but they are much more likely to find something when people don't get an automatic warning to run away.

3- I have in fact lived in J-Space most of the time I've played this game, I have also gone on Low-sec roams, been war-decced in Hi-sec, and even poked my head into Null on occasion. I actually do have a pretty good Idea of what life in New Eden would look like without local, its like a space game should be.

4- Null has its own problems to which local contributes, the intel advantage of being able to set all friendlies blue and all hostiles red and then instantly see if there is a threat in the system is immensely favorable to the large blocs. delayed local would be no panacea but it would go along way towards helping.
Aeryn Maricadie
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2017-06-15 15:28:03 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
Aeryn Maricadie wrote:
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Old Pervert wrote:
Every time this comes up (at minimum once per week), I say the same thing. As long as both parties have the same lack of local, I'm cool with it. Once you as a hunter have to probe every system just to see if someone's even there to hunt, you'll be begging for free instant intel to speed up your roam.


Thanks. I needed a laugh. Hunters would be more than fine with this. The only people who would complain are sov null alliances who want to earn isk risk free. It takes a few seconds, maybe, to find out if someone hostile is in system without local.

Literally the only people wanting to protect local chat in null are ratters and miners.

Sounds like that dude never heard of dscan, mustve lived in kspace too long.


I am in sov null. I don't object, because we maintain intel. We usually have 3-4 people perched in cloaked ships on entry points, and we roll holes.

The loss of local as intel when I'm financing my pvp is inconsequential to me.

The loss of local as intel when we're looking for a fight (and not a blob we can't win against) is a substantially more annoying concept, and the biggest reason why I always use Jspace as a transit system to low and null. Not knocking on jspace, that's how it was designed.

Consider delayed local if you were roaming into our pocket:

You jump into system, launch probes, find nothing. You don't find the cloaky eyes that are copying and pasting your dscan.me to the standing fleet.

Speed is and always will be of the essence in a roam. The slower you are, the more likely you are to get blobbed. So you move on further into the pocket, to try and find a kill before everyone's docked up.

You enter into the next system, everyone will be docked up and shipped into whatever response the FC calls for - be it T3Ds, cruisers, battlecruisers, or carriers. Once again you scan, find nobody. Odds are, FC will have called for carriers if you've brought something worth fighting. And they just cynoed in behind you, with dictors setting up drag bubbles.

You proceed through the pocket, not finding anyone, because we had intel on you already. You may hang around long enough to see people in local, but they're all obviously docked because you have probes.

So you make your way out. You know there are people docked, so speed is again of the essence. Hopefully you have a cepter scouting for you so that they can warn you that you're about to get camped in or dunked, because that's what's about to happen.

The moral of this thought exercise is that locals will always have intel. Always. You'll be shooting yourself in the foot.


Yeah that's just not how it works. Local gives way more intel to the people in such a system than to a roamer. The +1 still has to use at least D-scan to find anybody so it really doesn't speed things up. It does guarantee that everyone gets a message that a hostile has arrived, and it actually tells them before the roamer has even loaded the system to see local themselves. Seeing a bunch of people in local does not really change what a scout will do, they already have to assume that the residents of a system are hostile and have cyno's at the ready. That some might be cloaked at the gates. The scout knew this before even going on the roam, every roamer knows that the fleet is likely to end in a whelping. Local is not their friend. Delaying local only forces the defenders to be on their toes and not rely on local crutch. If everyone actually does as you say, then roams would never be successful would they? But they don't, people get complacent and they rely on their crutches.

Everything you just said is par for the course in J-space, and it makes for a much better game than staring at a chatbox.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#13 - 2017-06-15 23:39:01 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
I am in sov null. I don't object, because we maintain intel. We usually have 3-4 people perched in cloaked ships on entry points, and we roll holes.

The loss of local as intel when I'm financing my pvp is inconsequential to me.

The loss of local as intel when we're looking for a fight (and not a blob we can't win against) is a substantially more annoying concept, and the biggest reason why I always use Jspace as a transit system to low and null. Not knocking on jspace, that's how it was designed.

Consider delayed local if you were roaming into our pocket:

You jump into system, launch probes, find nothing. You don't find the cloaky eyes that are copying and pasting your dscan.me to the standing fleet.

Speed is and always will be of the essence in a roam. The slower you are, the more likely you are to get blobbed. So you move on further into the pocket, to try and find a kill before everyone's docked up.

You enter into the next system, everyone will be docked up and shipped into whatever response the FC calls for - be it T3Ds, cruisers, battlecruisers, or carriers. Once again you scan, find nobody. Odds are, FC will have called for carriers if you've brought something worth fighting. And they just cynoed in behind you, with dictors setting up drag bubbles.

You proceed through the pocket, not finding anyone, because we had intel on you already. You may hang around long enough to see people in local, but they're all obviously docked because you have probes.

So you make your way out. You know there are people docked, so speed is again of the essence. Hopefully you have a cepter scouting for you so that they can warn you that you're about to get camped in or dunked, because that's what's about to happen.

The moral of this thought exercise is that locals will always have intel. Always. You'll be shooting yourself in the foot.


People in NPC corps live in sov null?

I didn't realize NPC corps could hold sov.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#14 - 2017-06-16 08:01:55 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
In high sec local is the ONLY intel tool

Local was never supposed to be an intel tool.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#15 - 2017-06-16 15:03:03 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Old Pervert wrote:
I am in sov null. I don't object, because we maintain intel. We usually have 3-4 people perched in cloaked ships on entry points, and we roll holes.

The loss of local as intel when I'm financing my pvp is inconsequential to me.

The loss of local as intel when we're looking for a fight (and not a blob we can't win against) is a substantially more annoying concept, and the biggest reason why I always use Jspace as a transit system to low and null. Not knocking on jspace, that's how it was designed.

Consider delayed local if you were roaming into our pocket:

You jump into system, launch probes, find nothing. You don't find the cloaky eyes that are copying and pasting your dscan.me to the standing fleet.

Speed is and always will be of the essence in a roam. The slower you are, the more likely you are to get blobbed. So you move on further into the pocket, to try and find a kill before everyone's docked up.

You enter into the next system, everyone will be docked up and shipped into whatever response the FC calls for - be it T3Ds, cruisers, battlecruisers, or carriers. Once again you scan, find nobody. Odds are, FC will have called for carriers if you've brought something worth fighting. And they just cynoed in behind you, with dictors setting up drag bubbles.

You proceed through the pocket, not finding anyone, because we had intel on you already. You may hang around long enough to see people in local, but they're all obviously docked because you have probes.

So you make your way out. You know there are people docked, so speed is again of the essence. Hopefully you have a cepter scouting for you so that they can warn you that you're about to get camped in or dunked, because that's what's about to happen.

The moral of this thought exercise is that locals will always have intel. Always. You'll be shooting yourself in the foot.


People in NPC corps live in sov null?

I didn't realize NPC corps could hold sov.


Obvious troll is obvious. Keep trying, crying, and everything else. I still choose which character to post from, and you still fail to contribute anything of value to a conversation.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#16 - 2017-06-16 22:23:26 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
Obvious troll is obvious. Keep trying, crying, and everything else. I still choose which character to post from, and you still fail to contribute anything of value to a conversation.


Post with your main if you want to be taken seriously kiddo