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Would having a PvP arena help remove stuff from the game?

Author
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#21 - 2017-06-15 19:45:40 UTC
Yes, this is fun. But arenas turn that into no fun because these targets will be even farther and wider in between as PVPers are rather stuck in your hours long arenas than in their systems ready for a fight.

Needing ISK means indeed ratting, but that does not mean being a target to any roamers after arenas. Simply because people are not willing to fight any more in unfair, unpredictabe fights and they are stuck in the arenas, remember. Their ratters will just warp off if they are half-way competent.

No, I understood that right away, which is why I brought it up. Setting up an entire region of low sec space just so that such an arena.
You mean the GMs that are already overworked and unmotivated to work on tickets of low priority and still have long processing time on higher priority tickets? The same limited number of GMs that need to monitor the forums, mission screw ups, industry screw ups, market screw ups and so on and so forth now also need to monitor thousands of arena fights daily?

Arenas sound better and better, the more I think about them.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#22 - 2017-06-15 19:55:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Old Pervert
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Yes, this is fun. But arenas turn that into no fun because these targets will be even farther and wider in between as PVPers are rather stuck in your hours long arenas than in their systems ready for a fight.

Needing ISK means indeed ratting, but that does not mean being a target to any roamers after arenas. Simply because people are not willing to fight any more in unfair, unpredictabe fights and they are stuck in the arenas, remember. Their ratters will just warp off if they are half-way competent.

No, I understood that right away, which is why I brought it up. Setting up an entire region of low sec space just so that such an arena.
You mean the GMs that are already overworked and unmotivated to work on tickets of low priority and still have long processing time on higher priority tickets? The same limited number of GMs that need to monitor the forums, mission screw ups, industry screw ups, market screw ups and so on and so forth now also need to monitor thousands of arena fights daily?

Arenas sound better and better, the more I think about them.


You're probably the only person I know who enjoys getting blueballed and dunked. Generically speaking I think the term for that is masochism. Either that or I misunderstood the intent of your first paragraph.

You mean stuck in hours long arena matches actively engaged in pvp, as opposed to stuck in hours long roams out in other people's space hoping to be engaged in pvp? Either way they're out of pocket and not defending their ratters. In one of them though, they are guaranteed a fight. As are their opponents. The term for that is "content".

Also consider that with an instant fight, they're over a lot faster than current roams, which gets them back home. You'll recall I said that the losing team must be podded. Any significant corp worth roaming will end up with their medical clones in their home system, or at best, they'll have to use their jump clone to head back to their home system when they're done with the arena to re-set their medical clones.

As for the GMs, what says they can't hire more? If this turns out to be a positive experience for players (hey I'm not sitting around in a station with a 5 digit spin counter, I can actually go and get a good fight any time I want!!) they might get more subs. More subs means more money. More money means hiring more GMs.

Besides, griefing players will stop griefing when the GMs start handing out 30/perma bans. Knowing that a GM can and will ban them for griefing is often times enough incentive to not grief in the first place, as evidenced by the fact that rookie systems are not harassed by griefers.


EDIT:
I did not mean to imply that GMs would be actively monitoring the arena matches. I had meant that a GM is only a petition away.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#23 - 2017-06-15 20:24:37 UTC
Farming people mindlessly warping into a tackled target is fun. Farming people running home headlessly to "form" is fun, too.

Yes, I mean stuck in arenas and thus taken out of the game for any roamer to engage/intercept/farm/destroy. Yes, stuck in arenas not defending their ratters, which means they will dock up/tether up and are unavailable for a fight. Even Rorqs can be quickly un-cored and tethered up since intel semi-bots provide the necessary info way in advance. Yes, stuck in arenas and deserting the already existing arenas (called star systems, anomalies, missions, signatures, etc) because they are unfair and unpredictable.

CCP's profit margins say that. And that such a feature attracts more players is highly questionable. If we take the Free to Play mode as example, it is already clearly visible that this does not yield sustainable increase in active characters per day. According to http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility TQ is almost back to pre-Alpha numbers in terms of active characters per day. I fail to see how a feature that guarantees you getting farmed by more experienced players (that is an undeniable fact, considering how many people post ideas for PVE safe zones, PVP safe zones and so on in this forum) in a setting that gives you the illusion of a "fair fight" because of tighter rules. That sounds very entertaining and results in the same failing sustainable player growth and retention.
Not to mention that you do not need a paying account for arenas. You can now just have alpha account after alpha account to get free PVP chars.

I only partially implied active monitoring of the arenas themselves. However, they need to monitor an increased amount of tickets requiring immediate action as the arena fights are "short lived". So, more work for the same number or potentially more GMs but not necessarily more money and players for CCP. Not to mention that griefing in PVP is quite difficult to determine. How is a guy running circles around you griefing in arenas when it is not in the open world? How long is too long for protracting a fight? Not to mention that banning does not really mean anything with alpha accounts.

I may or may not go too much into detail with finding issues, as always, but I do not see arenas as a viable and valuable addition to a game that lives from making someone's day a bit more miserable. I only outlined a couple of exampled of the bucket of worms how players will exploit the rules to their advantage and make the "fun PVP" arena experience a lot less fun for many people.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#24 - 2017-06-15 20:51:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Old Pervert
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Farming people mindlessly warping into a tackled target is fun. Farming people running home headlessly to "form" is fun, too.

Yes, I mean stuck in arenas and thus taken out of the game for any roamer to engage/intercept/farm/destroy. Yes, stuck in arenas not defending their ratters, which means they will dock up/tether up and are unavailable for a fight. Even Rorqs can be quickly un-cored and tethered up since intel semi-bots provide the necessary info way in advance. Yes, stuck in arenas and deserting the already existing arenas (called star systems, anomalies, missions, signatures, etc) because they are unfair and unpredictable.


The only people who mindlessly warp into tackled targets or fly headlessly to form up are the very people who do not LIKE to pvp (and as such are not the ones who will be going to arena matches). They do these things because they're inexperienced, because they don't go out and roam. A skilled player will never do this, and it is the skilled players who will be spending their days in the arenas. Ergo you will not have any loss of this fun, because the scrubs will still be in system trying to carebear stare rocks all day.

I'll say it again. Risk averse players will not be "more" risk averse with arenas existing. They are NOT more inclined to run from a fight with some of their corp membership away fighting in arenas, because those arena fighters would have just been out roaming anyways. They're already dead-set on trying to run from the fight. With or without an arena.


Rivr Luzade wrote:

CCP's profit margins say that. And that such a feature attracts more players is highly questionable. If we take the Free to Play mode as example, it is already clearly visible that this does not yield sustainable increase in active characters per day. According to http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility TQ is almost back to pre-Alpha numbers in terms of active characters per day. I fail to see how a feature that guarantees you getting farmed by more experienced players (that is an undeniable fact, considering how many people post ideas for PVE safe zones, PVP safe zones and so on in this forum) in a setting that gives you the illusion of a "fair fight" because of tighter rules. That sounds very entertaining and results in the same failing sustainable player growth and retention.
Not to mention that you do not need a paying account for arenas. You can now just have alpha account after alpha account to get free PVP chars.

I only partially implied active monitoring of the arenas themselves. However, they need to monitor an increased amount of tickets requiring immediate action as the arena fights are "short lived". So, more work for the same number or potentially more GMs but not necessarily more money and players for CCP. Not to mention that griefing in PVP is quite difficult to determine. How is a guy running circles around you griefing in arenas when it is not in the open world? How long is too long for protracting a fight? Not to mention that banning does not really mean anything with alpha accounts.

I may or may not go too much into detail with finding issues, as always, but I do not see arenas as a viable and valuable addition to a game that lives from making someone's day a bit more miserable. I only outlined a couple of exampled of the bucket of worms how players will exploit the rules to their advantage and make the "fun PVP" arena experience a lot less fun for many people.


You cite active character counts from F2P, so I'll work with that. You know why they don't sub? Because they're bored, or because Eve isn't for them. If they're bored, the answer is simple: more content. If Eve isn't for them, nothing would have kept them anyways. When you're new to a game, you're forming your opinion of it very quickly. It has to catch your interest, and hold your interest. Their own statistics show that players engaged in PVP and losing ships are more likely to subscribe. So, give them more pvp.

As for omega players flying alpha accounts, I say let them. If they want to try and beat an omega player with their T1 something, they're going to lose unless said omega is absolutely horrifyingly terrible at pvp. If they are that terrible, then it's good they're learning to pvp, isn't it? If they're fighting an even halfways competent omega pilot, the alpha will lose, providing content for said omega pilot and keeping said omega pilot subbed.

Speaking to "what is griefing", it's a pretty easy thing to observe. The GM can of course ask the accused griefer what their intent is, and anyone with an intelligence level above that of a 5 year old should be able to either agree or disagree with their methods. "Cut it out or you'll be banned" or "nope, they're not griefing you".

The whole point behind the "fair fight" is that it is going to be harder for you. That's the fun. You can't blob them, you know they can't blob you. You're up against a reasonably matched group, and only one of you is leaving. The only skill required in a carrier blob is being able to turn on your NSA, launch your fighters, and land a volley before the targets are all obliterated. When you can't call carriers or other reinforcements in to swing the fight, you actually have to work for it - a novel concept.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#25 - 2017-06-15 21:36:33 UTC
First: Arenas are not more content. They take content out of the game by focusing the majority of PVP to these arenas and not where it belongs: in the open world. If people want more content, they can set out and look for it and by that create it. That is what EVE is about. Players create their own content.

Real PVP experience in alpha ships can win against any alpha or omega pilot that does not have the same insights. ... Unless, of course, if you pit say 3 T1 frigates against 3 T2 cruisers. Unless your fight setups are not inherently unfair, a pilot or group of pilots with proper experience can easily win against a pilot/group in the same ships with less experience. I am also not talking about an alpha alpha pilot; I am talking about alpha alts of experienced omega pilots, setup into tricking the system and opponents. You cannot have a fair fight most of the time because you cannot exclude experience from a fight. As countless of videos from experienced PVPers show: experience can dismantle even larger counter forces unless they unpack the capital hammer. And even that does not guarantee a victory over the more experienced group as I have recently found out in a fight against a WH group. 10 of them ridiculed our 30 BS/capitals with ease. The very same thing is unavoidable in arenas and is very detrimental to "fun" when you expect fair fights.

To a person who is not good at PVP, arenas are just as good as missions teaching them about PVP: they learn things in an artificial environment with a limited rule set and scenarios. The open world, however, does not work by these rules, as your remarks about getting blobbed by bigger groups all the time show. In an arena, you do not learn about reading the unpredictability of a battlefield because nothing unpredictable can happen. You do not learn about paying attention to changing conditions on a battlefield, about people leaving and coming in or warping around.
You teach players some crude basics, which will be dismantled the first or second time they try PVP outside arenas -- granted that they find anything to PVP against in the first place --, which will in turn drive them back to arenas and remove even more content from the actual game.

You know that this is a very time intensive approach, right? Especially arguing about the fine details of PVP. Keeping at range from someone is a basic principle in PVP. Determining if someone's griefing just by the fact that they simply ran around and occasionally or continuously kept dampening or jamming the opponent, while other people of their team regularly run small attacks. Regardless of what the GM finds, it's time consuming and unsustainable if this happens hundreds of times per day (CFC or PL or other big bored groups will do that repeatedly, that is guaranteed). And then the problem with inconsequential bans on alpha accounts removes any significance from that tool, too.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Axure Abbacus
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2017-06-15 22:24:29 UTC
Thera and the Shattered wormhole systems also fit what you are looking for.

https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/thera-and-the-shattered-wormholes/

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#27 - 2017-06-15 22:25:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Given the choice between hunting for pvp or pressing an instant gratification button that launches them into content (not even always pvp), many people, maybe even the majority of people, choose the latter.

Players in eve will rat because they don't have the time or patience to find pvp. Fw sites are popular pvp spots becuase pvp is quick and frequent. In other games i have observed waits for pvp matches become a lot longer because an 'instant play' button was introduced. Even though the instant play button rarely goes to a pvp match. Everything i have seen indicates that many players would leave the sandbox for instant gratification.


Unfair fights are not easier. Fair fights are low risk because the variables are reduced, but in a sandbox your enemy can blob you or have a cloaky alt or you can have third parties crash the party.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#28 - 2017-06-15 22:44:56 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
First: Arenas are not more content. They take content out of the game by focusing the majority of PVP to these arenas and not where it belongs: in the open world. If people want more content, they can set out and look for it and by that create it. That is what EVE is about. Players create their own content.

If players create their own content, then it does not matter where they create it. They're killing each other. That is content. If they would not have killed each other before, that is the opposite of content.

Rivr Luzade wrote:

Real PVP experience in alpha ships can win against any alpha or omega pilot that does not have the same insights. ... Unless, of course, if you pit say 3 T1 frigates against 3 T2 cruisers. Unless your fight setups are not inherently unfair, a pilot or group of pilots with proper experience can easily win against a pilot/group in the same ships with less experience. I am also not talking about an alpha alpha pilot; I am talking about alpha alts of experienced omega pilots, setup into tricking the system and opponents. You cannot have a fair fight most of the time because you cannot exclude experience from a fight. As countless of videos from experienced PVPers show: experience can dismantle even larger counter forces unless they unpack the capital hammer. And even that does not guarantee a victory over the more experienced group as I have recently found out in a fight against a WH group. 10 of them ridiculed our 30 BS/capitals with ease. The very same thing is unavoidable in arenas and is very detrimental to "fun" when you expect fair fights.

I agree that knowledge and experience will trump ships and fittings 9 times out of 10, unless the ships and fittings are so grossly disproportionate that no amount of skill will help. That said, I specifically said that a reasonably skilled omega would have no problems killing an expert alpha, as long as said omega knew how to do/recognize/prevent basic pvp maneuvers such as slingshots, manual tracking, etc.

I also do not want a "fair" fight... I know I did say fair, but I most certainly misspoke. I want an uninterrupted fight. I don't want some yahoo interrupting my experience for his own enjoyment. That is how Eve works, and I don't object to that, but given the option of a "you're on your own, you better know how to fight a real fight", I'd take that over "lol light the cyno!" any day.

Rivr Luzade wrote:

To a person who is not good at PVP, arenas are just as good as missions teaching them about PVP: they learn things in an artificial environment with a limited rule set and scenarios. The open world, however, does not work by these rules, as your remarks about getting blobbed by bigger groups all the time show. In an arena, you do not learn about reading the unpredictability of a battlefield because nothing unpredictable can happen. You do not learn about paying attention to changing conditions on a battlefield, about people leaving and coming in or warping around.
You teach players some crude basics, which will be dismantled the first or second time they try PVP outside arenas -- granted that they find anything to PVP against in the first place --, which will in turn drive them back to arenas and remove even more content from the actual game.

What says the inexperienced player goes alone? I learned to PVP by flying in gangs. Gangs would still be able to go into these arenas together, where their experienced FC can guide them and tell them what they're doing wrong.

Rivr Luzade wrote:

You know that this is a very time intensive approach, right? Especially arguing about the fine details of PVP. Keeping at range from someone is a basic principle in PVP. Determining if someone's griefing just by the fact that they simply ran around and occasionally or continuously kept dampening or jamming the opponent, while other people of their team regularly run small attacks. Regardless of what the GM finds, it's time consuming and unsustainable if this happens hundreds of times per day (CFC or PL or other big bored groups will do that repeatedly, that is guaranteed). And then the problem with inconsequential bans on alpha accounts removes any significance from that tool, too.


Of course it's time consuming. But not many would willingly grief knowing they'd lose their accounts. The people willing to do so would be gone by virtue of natural selection. In the beginning I'm sure there would be a lot of people trying to push the limits for lulz. Word would spread quickly of a "we're busy and we're not putting up with your bullshit, **** with us and you'll regret it" approach by the GMs would kick that to the curb very quickly. If alpha accounts are indeed being used for griefing, ban alpha accounts from the arenas. They'll get the same pvp experience outside of arenas post-arena as they would now.

I would bet substantially that if you were to sit invisible next to one of those fights, with logs showing which ships are activating which modules (or are reloading, etc), you would be able to say within 1 minute whether or not someone was griefing. I know I could.

I would also say that the "arena" is not "the battlefield". It does not have to be unpredictable, it can be as regimented as will be enjoyable. The variety in the experience makes Eve's pvp appeal to a broader base.

For someone who doesn't like that arena style pvp, they would simply not attend the arena and continue to pvp as they do now. I've said many times, with what I believe to be a compelling argument, that players who like to pvp will not simply disappear into the arenas forever - they will still be generating isk, they will still be in standing fleets.

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2017-06-16 00:13:08 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:


For someone who doesn't like that arena style pvp, they would simply not attend the arena and continue to pvp as they do now. I've said many times, with what I believe to be a compelling argument, that players who like to pvp will not simply disappear into the arenas forever - they will still be generating isk, they will still be in standing fleets.



You are missing a really important point. The player is limited. Every single person in an arena is not also in the game world so it has an impact even on non participant. The benefit of arenas (instant content) are not good enough to cripple the sandbox by removing some players from it.

Getting blue balled sucks but anyone who though it would not happen in a negative sum PvP game is an idiot. Absolutely no exception.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#30 - 2017-06-16 06:43:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Old Pervert wrote:
I also do not want a "fair" fight... I know I did say fair, but I most certainly misspoke. I want an uninterrupted fight. I don't want some yahoo interrupting my experience for his own enjoyment. That is how Eve works, and I don't object to that, but given the option of a "you're on your own, you better know how to fight a real fight", I'd take that over "lol light the cyno!" any day.
...
If alpha accounts are indeed being used for griefing, ban alpha accounts from the arenas. They'll get the same pvp experience outside of arenas post-arena as they would now.

If the fights are not fair, the arena won't work. In an arena system, you can't randomly pit 1 guy in a frigate against 3 guys in frigates. That's not how arena systems work. This means that you have to have at the very least equal numbers of characters in the arena, be it 1v1 or 3v3 or 5v5, if you do not wanted to have additional rules that resemble other arena style games. Under your suggestion, I suppose that you cannot chose to limit fights against a certain ship class, SP count, ship cost, account type, account age? That will leave tons of room for exploitation and very enjoyable PVP experiences.

And here we go: You want to ban those accounts from participating in the activity that is supposed to entertain them and keep them in the game because more experienced players know how to play the rules.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#31 - 2017-06-16 11:47:39 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Old Pervert wrote:



Anyone complaining that an arena would kill PVP outside of said arena is simply too used to the idea of ganking PVE fit ships and calling that PVP.


No I went though a game adding an area, it killed all the PvP outside of it.


Okay, you say that, but you fail to offer any justification or supposition as to how it would happen. "A game" is not Eve, which very likely means any links drawn between the two are very shallow at best.

What kind of PVP would you no longer see? Go ahead and pick one, we'll debate that in detail. Don't say "PVP", pick a specific type of engagement, any one you want.

At the end of the day, the moment ratters become too ripe, people will choose to roam them for the killmails, the lulz, and the loot. The same applies to ANY of the current pvp engagement profiles.

All this does is let players engage in good fights without having to get blueballed or blobbed - neither of which is fun.


All of it.

The more people that go to the arena the less there are in the open world which leads to more hunting which means more people will take the easy option which means fewer targets in the open world so more go to the arenas to get the PvP.

Arenas suck the life out the the wider game, it has happened in every single case of an arena being added to an MMO.
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#32 - 2017-06-16 14:29:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Old Pervert
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Old Pervert wrote:
I also do not want a "fair" fight... I know I did say fair, but I most certainly misspoke. I want an uninterrupted fight. I don't want some yahoo interrupting my experience for his own enjoyment. That is how Eve works, and I don't object to that, but given the option of a "you're on your own, you better know how to fight a real fight", I'd take that over "lol light the cyno!" any day.
...
If alpha accounts are indeed being used for griefing, ban alpha accounts from the arenas. They'll get the same pvp experience outside of arenas post-arena as they would now.

If the fights are not fair, the arena won't work. In an arena system, you can't randomly pit 1 guy in a frigate against 3 guys in frigates. That's not how arena systems work. This means that you have to have at the very least equal numbers of characters in the arena, be it 1v1 or 3v3 or 5v5, if you do not wanted to have additional rules that resemble other arena style games. Under your suggestion, I suppose that you cannot chose to limit fights against a certain ship class, SP count, ship cost, account type, account age? That will leave tons of room for exploitation and very enjoyable PVP experiences.

And here we go: You want to ban those accounts from participating in the activity that is supposed to entertain them and keep them in the game because more experienced players know how to play the rules.



1v3 is most certainly not in the spirit of an arena, I agree. I did specifically say "similarly sized groups", and one group being 3x the size of the other is most certainly not a similarly sized group.

But 1 guy in a RLML cerb vs 1 guy in a blaster thorax, that's not even remotely fair for the thorax - he's outmatched in every way, and the thorax pilot will most certainly complain that it wasn't fair that the Cerb kited him to death without getting shot once. Heck, the cerb wouldn't even need to kite, he could straight up tank the blasters long enough to kill the thorax. THAT is the "not fair fight" that I am okay with. In doing this, you'll see people bringing nice ships into fights, not just T1 bullshit frigates so that their lossmails are small and insignificant. The first guy to bring a real ship to a fight (and be good at PVP, as we've established) will mop the floor with them, until they too bring real ships. And because it's not going to result in someone saying "XYZ has a shiny ship!! BLOOOOOB!" they can actually bring that shiny ship and enjoy it.


The promise of instant gratification in the form of quick and controlled pvp matchups will be yet another reason for them to sub. Like the desire to fly a battleship. "That was fun, I wish I could do more pvp!". Once they know the option for instant pvp exists, they'll have incentive to sub and get in on the action.

baltec1 wrote:


All of it.

The more people that go to the arena the less there are in the open world which leads to more hunting which means more people will take the easy option which means fewer targets in the open world so more go to the arenas to get the PvP.

Arenas suck the life out the the wider game, it has happened in every single case of an arena being added to an MMO.

You want to pick a part, like I suggested? I'm offering you the opportunity to cherry-pick your absolute worst case. If you want to say "all of it will suffer", my answer will be "none of it will suffer". I've offered just as much to the debate as you have - see how unsatisfying that was?


The overwhelming argument here that everyone seems to be using is "but people will be in the arena instead of out in regular space!". And frankly, I disagree.

I think the closest existing approximation to an arena is FW - stop me there if someone disagrees. You warp into a plex, and either fight the existing occupant or wait for someone to come fight you.

How many people would you see living in FW if there was no LP, no rewards, save for the loot you get from the enemy ship? If there were no stations, citadels, POSes, or any other staging locations within 6 jumps of the plexes where they could stock 500 frigates.

You'd see an infinitesimally small fraction of the Eve playerbase there "permanently". The only people spending significant time there are the ones that have alts feeding isk to them - in which case, they're still out in space.

In an arena, the "reward" is pvp. No LP to farm, no isk to farm, just "get there, kill or die".
Marika Sunji
Perkone
Caldari State
#33 - 2017-06-16 15:05:57 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
-snip-


  • If it's not shiny it's not a good ship.
  • Having paid more for a ship entitles the pilot to a win.
  • T1 frigates are not real ships.


Alert, alert! Carebear mentality detected!
Shinier =/= better and ISK should never compensate for skillful piloting. Yes, your super-purple AT ship can too die to a slicer if you do not have a clue how to fly.
Investing in more expensive stuff to cover skill lack isn't the way to improve either.
T1 frigates are absolutely valid in PvP. Have you seen a Punisher swarm?
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#34 - 2017-06-16 15:33:06 UTC
Marika Sunji wrote:
Old Pervert wrote:
-snip-


  • If it's not shiny it's not a good ship.
  • Having paid more for a ship entitles the pilot to a win.
  • T1 frigates are not real ships.


Alert, alert! Carebear mentality detected!
Shinier =/= better and ISK should never compensate for skillful piloting. Yes, your super-purple AT ship can too die to a slicer if you do not have a clue how to fly.
Investing in more expensive stuff to cover skill lack isn't the way to improve either.
T1 frigates are absolutely valid in PvP. Have you seen a Punisher swarm?


Assuming you had read the rest of this thread, you would find that I had already agreed with others that skill will allow a pilot to beat a better-fit ship. So go ahead and do some reading.

When pilot skill is even, the better fit will win, unless one of them is a hard counter to the other (ie a kiting ship vs a brawling ship that just can't close the gap).
Luc Chastot
#35 - 2017-06-16 18:34:00 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
No it would not, in fact it would most likely have the opposite effect of what you are thinking.


How?

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Luc Chastot
#36 - 2017-06-16 18:36:00 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Luc Chastot wrote:
So, if CCP designed a PvP arena to encourage players to blow things up ala Alliance Tournament, do you think it would help ships and modules from the game? I know RvB exists and dueling is an in-game mechanic, but I'm wondering if we had a more permanent arena/tournament would help with this much needed goal. It could even be an ISK sink with betting and entry fees, and CONCORD battleships that blow the wrecks up because **** loot.


Why blow up loot? It is not an ISK source and, in general, adds to the in-game economy.

Because it would remove items from circulation. In any case, that last part was not a serious suggestion.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Luc Chastot
#37 - 2017-06-16 18:42:50 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Every game that has added an arena has seen the PvP outside of it vanish.

Name examples.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Luc Chastot
#38 - 2017-06-16 19:04:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Luc Chastot
For those discussing how such an arena would be implemented, you're wasting your time. This thread is not about that and even if it was, arena design is not set in stone and there certainly are ways to implement one in EVE without having much of an effect in Sov space.

The question, with added clarification, is:

If CCP implemented an arena that enticed those who do not PvP to do it, while not messing with null and low space PvP too much, do you think enough players would participate to have a positive impact on the economy? This means: removing items from circulation, creating new ISK sinks and rewarding players in ways that encourage ship combat and losses.

Keep the discussion on topic.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#39 - 2017-06-16 19:12:16 UTC
Luc Chastot wrote:
For those discussing how such an arena would be implemented, you're wasting your time. This thread is not about that and even if it was, arena design is not set in stone and there certainly are ways to implement one in EVE without having much of an effect in Sov space.

The question, with added clarification, is:

If CCP implemented an arena that enticed those who do not PvP to do it, while not messing with null and low space PvP too much, do you think enough players would participate to have a positive impact on the economy? This means: removing items from circulation, creating new ISK sinks and rewarding players in ways that encourage ship combat and losses.

Keep the discussion on topic.



The number of players you could entice into pvp which were not originally interested and participating in pvp with an arena would be very small, and catering a feature like this to try and draw them in would provide no noticeable impact on the eve economy.
Luc Chastot
#40 - 2017-06-16 19:36:21 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
The number of players you could entice into pvp which were not originally interested and participating in pvp with an arena would be very small, and catering a feature like this to try and draw them in would provide no noticeable impact on the eve economy.

Why do you think so? I believe if the rewards were worth it and everyone had at least a chance to win, many people would be tempted to try.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

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