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Solution to isk faucet with supers/carriers in null sec

Author
Beast of Revelations
Multiverse Trading
#21 - 2017-06-14 22:23:41 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:

Fair enough on the enemy cynos, but I still feel that if an enemy blobs you with caps, you can blob them with dreads.


I have no doubt what you say is true. Which is why I said that the triage idea, in retrospect, wasn't such a good idea.

Old Pervert wrote:
The clear fix in this case is to nerf the snake. It's well within its role, doing what it's intended for, it's just doing it too well. If they nerf the sites, they affect everyone else.


No nerf is needed, or warranted. No need to nerf PvP if the problem is making too much ISK in PvE with too little risk involved.

Either make the rats shoot fighters more effectively, or stick some gate on the damn anom which doesn't allow carriers in. Both solutions would work, both would take minutes to achieve (in the case of shooting fighters, just adjusting some numbers in the database), and both are mechanics which are already in the game. And neither one of these fixes harms anyone else but the carrier.

Someone proposed a carrier tax idea. While I would fully support that solution over the joke CCP implemented, even that isn't necessary. You'd have to program in a whole new "carrier tax" mechanic. The other two solutions (rats shoot fighters more effectively, gates on anoms) already exist as mechanics in the game, and they already function.

No reason not to do either, both solve the problem, both are quick and easy.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#22 - 2017-06-14 22:53:12 UTC
Adding gates to anoms is neither quick nor easy as proven by the issues we've had with new ship classes on gates. Legacy code probably but it's not a nice system they have to decide what can use a gate and what can't.
And also has significant kick on effects that impact on everyone else's income, as well as ratter safety knowing you have to land at the gate, and decloak to use it, and the ability to know exactly where you will land inside an anom when baiting.

Rats shooting fighters more effectively also kicks on to shooting everything else more effectively. Assuming you mean in any manner other than 'give fighters higher priority to target'. And since people already have ways to avoid fighters getting hit even when targeted that probably won't have significant impact on those people. There is nothing in EVE's code base to imply that they can make a specific weapon more effective against one type of target, if you have a gun it has the same stats vs everything and those stats interact with your target.

So no, neither solve the problem. And CCP's solution does solve the problem.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2017-06-14 23:48:20 UTC
Gian Bal wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Gian Bal wrote:
snip


No, -1.

Why? Ratting in general is not the problem.

Ratting in carriers and supers are.

You solution penalizes not only carriers and supers, but all raters. In other words, you want all other ratters to help "pay" for the problem created by carriers and supers...to in effect subsidize them.

No.

Feck no.

Bad game design right out of the box.


Clearly you didn't even read it then because you would understand that this delaying of anom spawns would only be triggered if x amount of sites were being run in x amount of time. So for people ratting in one or two afktars, rattlers, domis etc. there would be very little (if any) delay, whereas where supers and carriers would be blitzing through the sites so quickly it would trigger the anomaly spawn delay.


Ratting in carriers/supers does not happen in isolation. They can clear anoms faster than other ships, so those players will hoover up more anoms and faster, then hit the limit leaving players in afktars, etc. out of luck. They also have jump drives, so one could move around faster as well from that perspective.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Beast of Revelations
Multiverse Trading
#24 - 2017-06-15 01:55:46 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Adding gates to anoms is neither quick nor easy as proven by the issues we've had with new ship classes on gates. Legacy code probably but it's not a nice system they have to decide what can use a gate and what can't.


I have never heard anything regarding gates "not being a nice system" or issues with new ship classes on gates. Gates are used all over damn New Eden. Almost every mission I've ever run uses gates. I see absolutely no issue here.

Quote:
as well as ratter safety knowing you have to land at the gate, and decloak to use it, and the ability to know exactly where you will land inside an anom when baiting.


Ratter safety? It's not supposed to be safe. In fact, that's the problem with the current system, that too many carriers are hoovering in too much ISK with too much safety. The "risk/reward" quotient is too high.

Quote:
Rats shooting fighters more effectively also kicks on to shooting everything else more effectively. Assuming you mean in any manner other than 'give fighters higher priority to target'.


Sure, give the fighters higher priority.

Quote:
And since people already have ways to avoid fighters getting hit even when targeted that probably won't have significant impact on those people.


Nonsense. There's nothing that can't be adjusted for in code.

Quote:
And CCP's solution does solve the problem.


Nerfing a ship's PvP characteristics and performance because you have an issue with the economy does not solve any problem. In fact, it just creates more problems.
Gian Bal
Holy Amarrian Battlemonk
Local Is Primary
#25 - 2017-06-15 15:18:24 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Gian Bal wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Gian Bal wrote:
snip


No, -1.

Why? Ratting in general is not the problem.

Ratting in carriers and supers are.

You solution penalizes not only carriers and supers, but all raters. In other words, you want all other ratters to help "pay" for the problem created by carriers and supers...to in effect subsidize them.

No.

Feck no.

Bad game design right out of the box.


Clearly you didn't even read it then because you would understand that this delaying of anom spawns would only be triggered if x amount of sites were being run in x amount of time. So for people ratting in one or two afktars, rattlers, domis etc. there would be very little (if any) delay, whereas where supers and carriers would be blitzing through the sites so quickly it would trigger the anomaly spawn delay.


Ratting in carriers/supers does not happen in isolation. They can clear anoms faster than other ships, so those players will hoover up more anoms and faster, then hit the limit leaving players in afktars, etc. out of luck. They also have jump drives, so one could move around faster as well from that perspective.


Yes if they are sitting in one system (As i said before you clearly didnt read/understand my OP). One of the main effects of this system would be forcing ratters to actually spread out across systems if they want to keep their isk flow going, nullsec isk making in itself is broken, it's far to easy to make so much isk and this indirectly nerfs that to a certain degree, people will still be able to make the same amount of money, they will just need to spread out a bit and actually use the space that they own rather than huddling into 2 or 3 systems and not utilising the rest of the sov they hold properly.

But something tells me that considering you're in goons you aren't liking the idea of spreading out and actually having to work a bit for your isk.

Litterally God

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#26 - 2017-06-15 16:02:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Gian Bal wrote:


Yes if they are sitting in one system (As i said before you clearly didnt read/understand my OP). One of the main effects of this system would be forcing ratters to actually spread out across systems if they want to keep their isk flow going, nullsec isk making in itself is broken, it's far to easy to make so much isk and this indirectly nerfs that to a certain degree, people will still be able to make the same amount of money, they will just need to spread out a bit and actually use the space that they own rather than huddling into 2 or 3 systems and not utilising the rest of the sov they hold properly.

But something tells me that considering you're in goons you aren't liking the idea of spreading out and actually having to work a bit for your isk.


Again, I don't see how you are avoiding the issue I have raised. Carrier starts in system A after awhile that carrier pushes the re-spawn time up. Carrier then moves to another system and does the same thing. Non-carrier ratters are thus adversely affected in two systems. When you add another carrier ratter the problem gets even worse. In fact, you create an incentive to get into a carrier to be one of the first to "push up" that re-spawn rate.

Here is the thing, ratting in anomalies is kind of like a common pool resource (CPR). Rght now the re-spawn rate is such that we don't really have to worry about the "tragedy of the commons". My complaint is that your idea pretty much introduces, at least to a degree that precise problem. In the tragedy of the commons being the first one to deplete the pasture (fishery, water supply, forest, etc.) is an optimal individual strategy, but a sub-optimal group/societal level. And carrier/super pilots are at an advantage to utilize that common resource pool faster and more efficiently (use it up) and even have an advantage in terms of movement (use the jump drive to move to a new pasture without having to go through gates...use up the pasture while your fatigue goes away).

So please, stop telling me I did not read your proposal. I did. My criticism is apparently too subtle for you. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2017-06-15 16:05:28 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Simple elegant solution....

CCP levies a tax on carriers and supers while ratting.

The tax rate?

100%

Problems solved.

Stop a massive expansion of the money supply. No need to nerf the PvP capability of a carrier or super.


Gee, nobody likes this idea? I wonder why. Kinda puts to bed the notion that people are simply pissed about the PVP nerf. Lol

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#28 - 2017-06-15 16:36:58 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Simple elegant solution....

CCP levies a tax on carriers and supers while ratting.

The tax rate?

100%

Problems solved.

Stop a massive expansion of the money supply. No need to nerf the PvP capability of a carrier or super.


Gee, nobody likes this idea? I wonder why. Kinda puts to bed the notion that people are simply pissed about the PVP nerf. Lol


The EVE online forums post about baalnce are always just a game of "Don't nerf me bro!"
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2017-06-15 17:18:07 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Simple elegant solution....

CCP levies a tax on carriers and supers while ratting.

The tax rate?

100%

Problems solved.

Stop a massive expansion of the money supply. No need to nerf the PvP capability of a carrier or super.


Gee, nobody likes this idea? I wonder why. Kinda puts to bed the notion that people are simply pissed about the PVP nerf. Lol


The EVE online forums post about baalnce are always just a game of "Don't nerf me bro!"


Yeah, pretty much. I would add it is often, "Don't nerf me bro...nerf that other guy over there that hasn't caused any problems!"

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

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