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Pirate destroyers and battlecruisers
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Redus Taw
Farmers Union Iced Coffee
Pandemic Horde
#1 - 2017-06-15 01:47:16 UTC
I apologize for remaking a thread that's been talked about twice before, but both of those are locked indefinitely and over two years old so I'm opening this topic back up. I'd really like to see the pirate destroyers and battlecruisers. I think its odd not to have them when you've already got the frigate, cruiser, and battleship. Is there any demand out there for these or is it just me?
Tiberius NoVegas
NovKor Corp.
#2 - 2017-06-15 02:46:38 UTC
Redus Taw wrote:
I apologize for remaking a thread that's been talked about twice before, but both of those are locked indefinitely and over two years old so I'm opening this topic back up. I'd really like to see the pirate destroyers and battlecruisers. I think its odd not to have them when you've already got the frigate, cruiser, and battleship. Is there any demand out there for these or is it just me?


I thought it was odd at first as well but ive come to the conclusion that its a role issue. there is no need for pirate Destroyer and Battlecrusier ships at this moment. That may change in the furture but as of fight now the bulk of most fleets are made up of Frigate, Cruisers or BS. The destroyers and BC's, play a more limited role in support and supplemental fire. at least thats my experience with these ships.
Aeryn Maricadie
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2017-06-15 08:36:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Aeryn Maricadie
Tiberius NoVegas wrote:
Redus Taw wrote:
I apologize for remaking a thread that's been talked about twice before, but both of those are locked indefinitely and over two years old so I'm opening this topic back up. I'd really like to see the pirate destroyers and battlecruisers. I think its odd not to have them when you've already got the frigate, cruiser, and battleship. Is there any demand out there for these or is it just me?


I thought it was odd at first as well but ive come to the conclusion that its a role issue. there is no need for pirate Destroyer and Battlecrusier ships at this moment. That may change in the furture but as of fight now the bulk of most fleets are made up of Frigate, Cruisers or BS. The destroyers and BC's, play a more limited role in support and supplemental fire. at least thats my experience with these ships.

This is changing with alphas though a lot of the big null blobs are switching to CH doctrines for the larger numbers of low SP newbros. Ofc they likely would not use pirate CH' s for newbros anyway.
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#4 - 2017-06-15 08:50:49 UTC
They exist. The SoCT Sunesis and Gnosis. These are the only pirate faction ships available to Alpha clones and can be flown by all races.

Adding a new ship to the game makes no sense if it simply displaces an existing ship - it needs to fill an empty niche. You also don't want one ship that's "best" - you want a lot of ships that are good in different ways. Every ship in the game should be useful in the right circumstances - otherwise why does it exist?

If you want a pirate destroyer or battlecruiser, start with the business case - why should it exist? What role does it fill?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#5 - 2017-06-15 09:21:50 UTC
Aeryn Maricadie wrote:

This is changing with alphas though a lot of the big null blobs are switching to CH doctrines for the larger numbers of low SP newbros. Ofc they likely would not use pirate CH' s for newbros anyway.

Could you explain to me how an alpha can use any pirate ship please (SOCT ships not counted)
Aeryn Maricadie
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2017-06-15 09:52:19 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Aeryn Maricadie wrote:

This is changing with alphas though a lot of the big null blobs are switching to CH doctrines for the larger numbers of low SP newbros. Ofc they likely would not use pirate CH' s for newbros anyway.

Could you explain to me how an alpha can use any pirate ship please (SOCT ships not counted)

The same way they use CH's, first while they learn the game and whether or not they like it they are training relevant skills for the ships. Then when the time comes they upgrade to omega. The old T3 and T2 blobs are being replaced by newbro friendly T1 CH' s as alliances seek to increase their ranks of F1 grunts. Alphas that have already trained to be decent CL's can become decent CH' s within days of subbing/plexing.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#7 - 2017-06-16 05:42:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
CL? CH? Can someome elaborate please?

Pirate dessies and bc's is debatable. Navy faction ships are often 'alternates' to T1. Like a navy hurricane is a fast tracking cane with more utility and a little less dps. A navy exeq is an uncharacteristically gun-centric gallente cruiser. A navy scythe is a split system cruiser. Pirate ships however are different sizes of the same ship but pretty much the same bonuses. Is there really a place in between existing ships for more of the same?

Since pirate faction are supposedly 'hyper attack' ships, it may be interesting to do pirate versions of ABC's.

- Fast warping tornado
- Oversized neuts on a oracle
- Shield oracle
- Missile abc (which was always wanted)
- Drone abc
- Web str talos

How broken can they get?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Alever Caldari
Doomheim
#8 - 2017-06-16 09:29:29 UTC
the way I see it, stuff like a vigilant 5 guns act as a bc 8 guns if you have max skills, so a 7-8 turrent ship will hit like having 10 guns if its a 25% bonus
Brok Haslack
9624968
#9 - 2017-06-16 13:27:55 UTC
Redus Taw wrote:
I apologize for remaking a thread that's been talked about twice before, but both of those are locked indefinitely and over two years old so I'm opening this topic back up. I'd really like to see the pirate destroyers and battlecruisers. I think its odd not to have them when you've already got the frigate, cruiser, and battleship. Is there any demand out there for these or is it just me?




Pirate Destroyers and Battlecruisers would be great fun.
FT Cold
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2017-06-16 15:32:27 UTC
Tiberius NoVegas wrote:


That may change in the furture but as of fight now the bulk of most fleets are made up of Frigate, Cruisers or BS. The destroyers and BC's, play a more limited role in support and supplemental fire. at least thats my experience with these ships.


BCs are extremely common in null and W-space as mainline doctrines, rather than as support. T1 battlecruisers are used by basically every major alliance, HFIs are fairly common, and command ship doctrines are becoming more common. Destroyers are also quite common in all their varieties. I don't know for sure, but if I were to guess off the top of my head, I would say that BCs are probably the most used mainline ship doctrine currently.
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#11 - 2017-06-16 16:25:28 UTC
Do Little wrote:
They exist. The SoCT Sunesis and Gnosis. These are the only pirate faction ships available to Alpha clones and can be flown by all races.

Adding a new ship to the game makes no sense if it simply displaces an existing ship - it needs to fill an empty niche. You also don't want one ship that's "best" - you want a lot of ships that are good in different ways. Every ship in the game should be useful in the right circumstances - otherwise why does it exist?

If you want a pirate destroyer or battlecruiser, start with the business case - why should it exist? What role does it fill?



Well... I may be misunderstand things but the point of pirate ships has always seemed to be to merge the quirks of two different factions into a single ship.

Gurrista ships are a Caldari/Gallente merge of missiles and drones. Blood raiders seem to combine the webbing of Minmatar and the Nos/vamping of Amarr. I don't necessarily see them filling a niche... they're just blends of two factions.

So the question can be asked that if blends of the various factions are viable for Frigates, Cruisers, Battleships and even capital ships... why not destroyers and Battlecruisers too?

Seems like whatever spot the Worm fills between a Kestrel and a Tristan or a Gila fills betwen a Caracal and a Vexor or the Rattlesnake fills between a Dominix and a Raven... that some other ship could fill that spot between a Myrmidon and a Drake or a Corax and an Algos.
JC Mieyli
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2017-06-16 18:43:49 UTC  |  Edited by: JC Mieyli
pirate destroyers would suck because t3ds already dominate the field
and command destroyers were just a joke ccp made up for fun
interdictors are still awesome but highly specialised
ill repeat that
interdictors are highly specialised
and command destroyers suck
what role could a pirate destroyer even fill without dying in 2 sconds

as for pirate bcs
ccp still need to learn to balance t1 bcs properly before we encourage them to make pirate variants
(that means fixing the bs meta at the same time)
whole lot of crap im not gonna explain unless you really wanna know
FT Cold
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2017-06-16 20:42:19 UTC
JC Mieyli wrote:
pirate destroyers would suck because t3ds already dominate the field
and command destroyers were just a joke ccp made up for fun
interdictors are still awesome but highly specialised
ill repeat that
interdictors are highly specialised
and command destroyers suck
what role could a pirate destroyer even fill without dying in 2 sconds

as for pirate bcs
ccp still need to learn to balance t1 bcs properly before we encourage them to make pirate variants
(that means fixing the bs meta at the same time)
whole lot of crap im not gonna explain unless you really wanna know


How exactly do command destroyers suck? They're one of the freshest ships that's ever been added to the game. They break gate/station/hole hugging and they let you pick apart crappy f1 approach gangs. They go hand in hand with interdictors as a method of catching and separating gangs, not to mention they're awesome for providing links to go along side fast/kitey gangs, or even as a solo boat.
Jayka Kyer
Eternal Chaos.
#14 - 2017-06-16 20:52:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jayka Kyer
JC Mieyli wrote:

what role could a pirate destroyer even fill without dying in 2 sconds




Has time based vision (vision not lock) on stealth ships with in a short range
Immunity to bombs and smart bombs



OR

Time to anchor small bubble 75% reduction
Small bubble disrupt range increased while in range.
ship signature reduced while in bubbles
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#15 - 2017-06-16 20:57:21 UTC
Jayka Kyer wrote:
JC Mieyli wrote:

what role could a pirate destroyer even fill without dying in 2 sconds




Has time based vision (vision not lock) on stealth ships with in a short range
Immunity to bombs and smart bombs



Hmmm.... this is actually interesting (for another T2 destroyer or for pirate destroyers).

In naval combat, one of the prime jobs for a destroyer is hunting submarines. Stealth bombers are the submarines of eve.

Having T2 destroyers capable of being specialized stealth bomber hunters actually sounds pretty interesting.
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2017-06-16 21:12:47 UTC
I agree, a T2 destroyer focused on hunting cloaked ships would be interesting. However "vision" would be too easy. You could just fly straight at them.

I'd say something similar to probing, but that obviously would be an issue for AFK cloaking (lets not derail this thread with that...).


Perhaps a visual "ping" (most closely described as a large bracket showing up on your screen for a half second) when you hit your dscan, for something within X number of km? A big enough effect that you'd have to be lucky to get them on your first pass, but a small enough effect to make the cloaked pilot poop himself a little bit when the destroyer starts burning towards him.
Redus Taw
Farmers Union Iced Coffee
Pandemic Horde
#17 - 2017-06-16 21:38:21 UTC
Tiberius NoVegas wrote:
Redus Taw wrote:
I apologize for remaking a thread that's been talked about twice before, but both of those are locked indefinitely and over two years old so I'm opening this topic back up. I'd really like to see the pirate destroyers and battlecruisers. I think its odd not to have them when you've already got the frigate, cruiser, and battleship. Is there any demand out there for these or is it just me?


I thought it was odd at first as well but ive come to the conclusion that its a role issue. there is no need for pirate Destroyer and Battlecrusier ships at this moment. That may change in the furture but as of fight now the bulk of most fleets are made up of Frigate, Cruisers or BS. The destroyers and BC's, play a more limited role in support and supplemental fire. at least thats my experience with these ships.


I think its hard to make this argument because we won't know exactly how the community would use them until they're being used in the game (or on the test servers) you know?
Redus Taw
Farmers Union Iced Coffee
Pandemic Horde
#18 - 2017-06-16 21:46:45 UTC
Do Little wrote:
They exist. The SoCT Sunesis and Gnosis. These are the only pirate faction ships available to Alpha clones and can be flown by all races.

Adding a new ship to the game makes no sense if it simply displaces an existing ship - it needs to fill an empty niche. You also don't want one ship that's "best" - you want a lot of ships that are good in different ways. Every ship in the game should be useful in the right circumstances - otherwise why does it exist?

If you want a pirate destroyer or battlecruiser, start with the business case - why should it exist? What role does it fill?


Sorry, I meant for all of the other pirate factions: Guristas, Serpentis, SoE, etc. Besides saying they would fill the role of pirate destroyers and pirate battlecruisers, I'm not sure how to answer your question. I think each corp/alliance will figure out a way to implement them into their fleets or they won't, but that's based off of testing out the community and each corps/alliances strategy. If they find a role for it then they'll use it. I haven't thought about making the destroyers and battlecruisers different from the frigates, cruisers, and bs's, which are already basically the same. I'm definitely open to ideas and I'll give it some thought myself, but this would be a difficult task as we'd have to come up with completely fresh ships that are balanced.