These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[June] Fighter Damage Reduction

First post First post First post
Author
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2241 - 2017-06-14 19:45:01 UTC
Lord Heluene wrote:
So CCP nerfed my missiles a while back and I swiitched to a carrier because of it, now I am being punished by CCP for making isk in the ship they pushed me into. How thoughtfull!! NOT


Nobody pushed you into anything, you looked at the game and made a choice.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2242 - 2017-06-14 19:46:29 UTC
HandelsPharmi wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
So 46.5% of the bounties can be gained by 6.2% of the players.



Keep in mind, that all miners and even gate camped who have shot a single rat are counted to the 100 % :)


Yes! This is such an amazingly bad point it should be noted in a quote for posterity. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#2243 - 2017-06-14 19:49:55 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Atrinos wrote:


1. A VNI has ticks around 20 mil. A supercap has ticks around 100mil. So a global tax would primary Hit that clases. Ccp said that there is to much isk were genrated through ratting so this is a solution that target this Problem.


Oh wow, you don't understand how percentages work at all, huh?

Quote:
2. Ccp made the Skill injectors for New players so that they could catch up faster. Caps are the Kind of endcontent and with Skill injectors everyone had access to this. So why blame the ratters when they used rl money to get in these ships and then just nerf them. If there were no Skill injectors there would be much less Caps. As i said - there always were ppl who were ratting in Caps and this was never a thing.



And as I asked: What is your ******* point? Do you think assigning blame to skill injectors alleviates the need to correct the problem now? Even if we completely accept that skill injectors are TOTALLY at fault (in actuality, they're a catalyst, at most), do you actually have a viable proposition to address that, or are you just hoping that you can blame-shift enough to avoid further damage to your toys?

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2244 - 2017-06-14 19:54:10 UTC
Atrinos wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Lord Heluene wrote:
So CCP nerfed my missiles a while back and I swiitched to a carrier because of it, now I am being punished by CCP for making isk in the ship they pushed me into. How thoughtfull!! NOT



The self-importance of anyone who manages to rationalize necessary gameplay changes as, "I'm being punished!" is mind-boggling.

Tell you what: Why don't you tell us what you think should happen instead?

Here's the problem: There's WAY too much ISK flowing into the economy. This major overabundance is attributable to the ISK-generating capabilities of ratting supers and carriers.

Provide a solution to this problem.

Alternatively, present an argument in favor of allowing the entire game's economy to collapse in lieu of making you sad by correcting the problem.

Failing that, just bugger off.


1. Eve is a Sandox Game. So why shouldn't they be allowed to make money in Caps and Supercaps?
2. There are much smarter ways to decrease the isk flow. For example a global tax for ratting bounties with 20%. So why just **** up shipclasses
3. Many ppl were ratting in supers for a long time. It never was a Problem cause there were only a few of them. Skill injectors were anounced and now much More ppl were ratting in Caps and supercaps. This Problem was selfmade by ccp...



1. Because ruining the economy will ruin the game for everyone.
2. Because the problem is not ratters in general, but a subset of ratters. Those guys are the one's bringing in a crap ton of ISK into the game. I have posted this before, but I doubt you'll read and educate yourself so I'll do it for you. Last month, May 2017 just to be clear here, the amount of ISK coming into the game for that SINGLE FECKING MONTH was as much as was created in the last 6 months of 2016.
3. Three points:
a. Carriers and supers were changed by CCP.
b. If a teeny tiny number of people rat in an OP ISK printer it won't have the same impact as 10 or 100 times as many.
c. The ships are still unbalanced with or without injectors. Whether you have the problem now or year from now or 2 years from now, they were doomed to somehow be nerfed.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Objectless Hatred
El Ultimo Hombre
Goonswarm Federation
#2245 - 2017-06-14 19:56:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Objectless Hatred
Mark Marconi wrote:
Objectless Hatred wrote:
But meh, the changes were halved, you lost... deal with it.

Yeah after 100 pages of tears the likes of which hi-sec has never produced and why?

So 46.5% of the bounties can be gained by 6.2% of the players.



Apparently you weren't playing when Incarna was released. It was the reason "pay2win" aka skill injectors and such wasn't released for 5 years. You know, the time the player base shot a monument for a week and cried on the forums.. Mostly high sec players no less.
iFars
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2246 - 2017-06-14 19:57:37 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:


What:
  • Light Fighters (Space Superiority): No Change
  • Light Fighters (Attack): 10% reduction to Basic Attack and Heavy Rocket Salvo damage (was 20%)
  • Support Fighters: No Change
  • Heavy Fighters (Heavy Attack): No Change (was 10% reduction to Basic Attack and Torpedo Salvo damage)
  • Heavy Fighters (Long Range Attack): 20% reduction to Basic Attack damage (was 30%)
  • Heavy Fighters (Shadow): No Change
  • NPC Fighter Aggression: No Change (was +15%)



ty
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2247 - 2017-06-14 20:01:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Atrinos wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Atrinos wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Lord Heluene wrote:
So CCP nerfed my missiles a while back and I swiitched to a carrier because of it, now I am being punished by CCP for making isk in the ship they pushed me into. How thoughtfull!! NOT



The self-importance of anyone who manages to rationalize necessary gameplay changes as, "I'm being punished!" is mind-boggling.

Tell you what: Why don't you tell us what you think should happen instead?

Here's the problem: There's WAY too much ISK flowing into the economy. This major overabundance is attributable to the ISK-generating capabilities of ratting supers and carriers.

Provide a solution to this problem.

Alternatively, present an argument in favor of allowing the entire game's economy to collapse in lieu of making you sad by correcting the problem.

Failing that, just bugger off.


1. Eve is a Sandox Game. So why shouldn't they be allowed to make money in Caps and Supercaps?
2. There are much smarter ways to decrease the isk flow. For example a global tax for ratting bounties with 20%. So why just **** up shipclasses
3. Many ppl were ratting in supers for a long time. It never was a Problem cause there were only a few of them. Skill injectors were anounced and now much More ppl were ratting in Caps and supercaps. This Problem was selfmade by ccp...



1. Nobody said they shouldn't be allowed to make money in caps and supercaps. The assertion is that the amount of money being made in caps and supercaps is unsustainable, and needs to be brought into line.

2. A global tax on ratting bounties would impact all ratters, including those who aren't currently earning the massively outsized incomes of carriers and supercarriers. This fails to address the problem that was identified, impacting far more players. Why should a VNI ratter take a 20% hit to address the problem of the ISK-generating capabilities of carries and supercarriers being too high? Now, if you had said, "A 50% tax on bounties generated by Carriers and Supercarriers," then you may have been on to something. Pretty hacky kludge, but at least it targets the problem.

3. And your point here is... what? Even if we blame injectors, what is the actual point you imagine you're making? What part of this is actionable? What is your suggestion? Are they supposed to remove injectors from the game? Or are you trying to assert that since it's CCP's "fault" (All balance and gameplay problems are CCP's fault in this sense, btw. It's also their responsibility to correct those missteps) it should just be allowed to persist indefinitely?

Given the above, you have utterly failed at the task of presenting a solution that addresses the problem. Please try again.



1. A VNI has ticks around 20 mil. A supercap has ticks around 100mil. So a global tax would primary Hit that clases. Ccp said that there is to much isk were genrated through ratting so this is a solution that target this Problem.

2. Ccp made the Skill injectors for New players so that they could catch up faster. Caps are the Kind of endcontent and with Skill injectors everyone had access to this. So why blame the ratters when they used rl money to get in these ships and then just nerf them. If there were no Skill injectors there would be much less Caps. As i said - there always were ppl who were ratting in Caps and this was never a thing.


OMG no.

1. First, CCP said that a single group of ratters were causing the problem, carriers and super pilots. Second, it is a flat tax so it is a solution that penalizes the small time ratter just as much as the big time ratter who is causing the problem. Hence the tax will have to high enough to wipe out the negative effects of a money supply growing too fast. So it might have to be as high as say 50%. A VNI getting ticks of 10 million while the super pilot is still getting 50% is not going to be seen as fair to a much, much larger segment of the ratting players....WHO ARE NOT CAUSING THE PROBLEM TO BEGIN WITH. Second what do you think everyone with an alt or main ratting in a VNI will start skilling for? A super. You are not solving the problem long term.

2. The is not injectors, the issue are two classes of unbalanced ships when it comes ratting.

Stop trying to shift the discussion away from the problem--too much ISK entering the economy.

Edit: The point I am making in 1 above maybe too subtle for some....

Prior to changes to carriers and supers, carriers did not do any rating (lets just keep it simple). After the change carriers and supers are actually very good ratting boats.

The carrier/super pilots are bringing in too much ISK. Lets use some simple numbers. The carrier/super group is bringing in 100 ISK. Everyone else is bringing in 200 ISK.

The optimal amount of ISK (pretend we know this number) is say 200. So we want to tax ratters to get to that level of ISK. Set the tax rate at 1/3.

300*(2/3) = 200.

Wow! Magic, the economy and game are saved. Except we have 2 players ratting in a carrier and a super. An 10 ratting in other ships. The Carrier and super pilot each get 33 million ISK and between the two of them have 33.3% of the incoming ISK. The others all get 13.4 million. So this change to supers and taxes basically shifts income from non-carrier/super ratters to carrier and super ratters.

All of these people whining about nerfs to carrier/super ratting basically want to have subsidized game play. They want to play at the expense of other players. These players are leeches and pathetic and should never ever be listened too.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2248 - 2017-06-14 20:05:02 UTC
Objectless Hatred wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Objectless Hatred wrote:
But meh, the changes were halved, you lost... deal with it.

Yeah after 100 pages of tears the likes of which hi-sec has never produced and why?

So 46.5% of the bounties can be gained by 6.2% of the players.



Apparently you weren't playing when Incarna was released. It was the reason "pay2win" aka skill injectors and such wasn't released for 5 years. You know, the time the player base shot a monument for a week and cried on the forums.. Mostly high sec players no less.


Yes because SP always determines who wins.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Objectless Hatred
El Ultimo Hombre
Goonswarm Federation
#2249 - 2017-06-14 20:14:19 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Objectless Hatred wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Objectless Hatred wrote:
But meh, the changes were halved, you lost... deal with it.

Yeah after 100 pages of tears the likes of which hi-sec has never produced and why?

So 46.5% of the bounties can be gained by 6.2% of the players.



Apparently you weren't playing when Incarna was released. It was the reason "pay2win" aka skill injectors and such wasn't released for 5 years. You know, the time the player base shot a monument for a week and cried on the forums.. Mostly high sec players no less.


Yes because SP always determines who wins.



No but the player base was pissed over a monocle but doesn't care about skill injection. So yeah...
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2250 - 2017-06-14 20:18:06 UTC
Objectless Hatred wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Objectless Hatred wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Objectless Hatred wrote:
But meh, the changes were halved, you lost... deal with it.

Yeah after 100 pages of tears the likes of which hi-sec has never produced and why?

So 46.5% of the bounties can be gained by 6.2% of the players.



Apparently you weren't playing when Incarna was released. It was the reason "pay2win" aka skill injectors and such wasn't released for 5 years. You know, the time the player base shot a monument for a week and cried on the forums.. Mostly high sec players no less.


Yes because SP always determines who wins.



No but the player base was pissed over a monocle but doesn't care about skill injection. So yeah...


So it wasn't pay to win, and were people pissed about the monocle or the possibility of things like gold ammo? I think people thought the monocle was stupidly over-priced, but it was that article about how to really grab money out of players by creating better ammo, mods, etc. de novo for cash.

And ironically, people are now using skill injectors to deflect from a clearly unbalanced element in the game. And that imbalance was created not by pay2win, but by CCP doing a revamp to carriers and supers.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#2251 - 2017-06-14 20:18:15 UTC
Objectless Hatred wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Objectless Hatred wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Objectless Hatred wrote:
But meh, the changes were halved, you lost... deal with it.

Yeah after 100 pages of tears the likes of which hi-sec has never produced and why?

So 46.5% of the bounties can be gained by 6.2% of the players.



Apparently you weren't playing when Incarna was released. It was the reason "pay2win" aka skill injectors and such wasn't released for 5 years. You know, the time the player base shot a monument for a week and cried on the forums.. Mostly high sec players no less.


Yes because SP always determines who wins.



No but the player base was pissed over a monocle but doesn't care about skill injection. So yeah...


The player based was pissed over a monocle, a very unflattering leaked internal newsletter, an extremely underwhelming update for which all other updates had been put on hold, an unopenable door, a refusal to come out and say "no" to golden ammo implying that there were plans for golden ammo, a tone-deaf argument about designer pants, and the general hubris of the game management at the time.

There was a lot more going on there than "Monocles".

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Objectless Hatred
El Ultimo Hombre
Goonswarm Federation
#2252 - 2017-06-14 20:29:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Objectless Hatred
SurrenderMonkey wrote:


The player based was pissed over a monocle, a very unflattering leaked internal newsletter, an extremely underwhelming update for which all other updates had been put on hold, an unopenable door, a refusal to come out and say "no" to golden ammo implying that there were plans for golden ammo, a tone-deaf argument about designer pants, and the general hubris of the game management at the time.

There was a lot more going on there than "Monocles".



And isn't the current whining over more than carrier/super nerfs because of ratting? the nerfs, the rorq nerf, the ghost training crap, the mysterious stopping of all skill queues, the lag, socket closes, etc etc? I only mentioned monocles because people that were playing at the time would more readily remember that and then the rest of the issues would come to mind as well.

I still have a copy of the Greed is Good pdf :P
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2253 - 2017-06-14 20:33:34 UTC
Objectless Hatred wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:


The player based was pissed over a monocle, a very unflattering leaked internal newsletter, an extremely underwhelming update for which all other updates had been put on hold, an unopenable door, a refusal to come out and say "no" to golden ammo implying that there were plans for golden ammo, a tone-deaf argument about designer pants, and the general hubris of the game management at the time.

There was a lot more going on there than "Monocles".



And isn't the current whining over more than carrier/super nerfs because of ratting? the nerfs, the rorq nerf, the ghost training crap, the mysterious stopping of all skill queues, the lag, socket closes, etc etc? I only mentioned monocles because people that were playing at the time would more readily remember that and then the rest of the issues would come to mind as well.

I still have a copy of the Greed is Good pdf :P


Yes. However, both SurrenderMonkey and I have come out against this general nerf to carriers/supers. Nerfing a ship overall that can be used in both PvP and PvE because of a PvE problem is not good either. I don't know about SurrenderMonkey, but I'd prefer a temprorary ban on carriers and supers ratting so that a better solution can be found.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2254 - 2017-06-14 20:37:31 UTC
Here we go a simple and elegant solution:

CCP imposes a ratting tax on supers and carriers of....100%.

You can rat in your carrier or your super, you just get nothing for it.

No other nerfs. All combat abilities are returned to where they were.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Objectless Hatred
El Ultimo Hombre
Goonswarm Federation
#2255 - 2017-06-14 20:38:10 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Objectless Hatred wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:


The player based was pissed over a monocle, a very unflattering leaked internal newsletter, an extremely underwhelming update for which all other updates had been put on hold, an unopenable door, a refusal to come out and say "no" to golden ammo implying that there were plans for golden ammo, a tone-deaf argument about designer pants, and the general hubris of the game management at the time.

There was a lot more going on there than "Monocles".



And isn't the current whining over more than carrier/super nerfs because of ratting? the nerfs, the rorq nerf, the ghost training crap, the mysterious stopping of all skill queues, the lag, socket closes, etc etc? I only mentioned monocles because people that were playing at the time would more readily remember that and then the rest of the issues would come to mind as well.

I still have a copy of the Greed is Good pdf :P


Yes. However, both SurrenderMonkey and I have come out against this general nerf to carriers/supers. Nerfing a ship overall that can be used in both PvP and PvE because of a PvE problem is not good either. I don't know about SurrenderMonkey, but I'd prefer a temprorary ban on carriers and supers ratting so that a better solution can be found.



I only had a issue with the originally high percentage of the nerf. I feel the same about nerfing a pvp ship because of its use as a pve ship. I'm pretty much on the same page.
Trevize Demerzel
#2256 - 2017-06-14 22:12:39 UTC
IMO. If they would change it so fighters did less dps to rats and increased their resistance to being rendered useless in pvp I'd be fine with that. It's the nerfing pve plus adding npc agro and leaving then useless in pvp that annoys me so much.


A (super)carrier shouldn't fear a bunch of frigs or even a solo small ship that can render it a large loot Pinata in pvp. It's fighters need some teeth in pvp. The ability to defang a carrier at present is rather ridiculous and I think that is why this entire nerf angered so many. Myself included.

-

Feracitus
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2257 - 2017-06-15 00:14:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Feracitus
Teckos Pech wrote:
Feracitus wrote:
The underlying problem is the infinite nature of the ISK currency. Limit the money supply by actually limiting the money supply. Transform ISK in a blockchain based cryptocurrency with a market cap and limited supply.


ISK is already a synthetic commodity currency like bit coin. People convert electricity into bit coin, and people convert (leisure) time into ISK. With changes to carriers/supers it looks like it is "too easy" to convert (leisure) time into ISK.


It might be synthetic, but it lacks the paramount trait of bitcoin as a store of value, for not having a fixed cap. People often mistake worth for price. Having a fixed cap on the money supply is a good concept to explore as it drives stability of the overall market system, and curbs overinflation over time.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
#2258 - 2017-06-15 01:49:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
Trevize Demerzel wrote:
IMO. If they would change it so fighters did less dps to rats and increased their resistance to being rendered useless in pvp I'd be fine with that. It's the nerfing pve plus adding npc agro and leaving then useless in pvp that annoys me so much.


A (super)carrier shouldn't fear a bunch of frigs or even a solo small ship that can render it a large loot Pinata in pvp. It's fighters need some teeth in pvp. The ability to defang a carrier at present is rather ridiculous and I think that is why this entire nerf angered so many. Myself included.


This right here. It feels like with the Citadel update carriers and supers got transformed from blob ships to ratting ships that happen to still be decent in a blob. Ever since then, it has been nerf after nerf, with each one targeted at their ratting ability but hitting their already weak out-of-blob PvP abilities even harder. I didn't train carriers and supers to make ISK or sit in TiDi all day pressing a button every few minutes; I trained them as a tool against groups of smaller ships in PvP to get something of a "quality over quantity" advantage. Unfortunately after 4 heavy-handed nerfs to carriers and only a slight tracking change to dreads and titans, it's clear I made the wrong choice. Dreads and titans are for every fight against players and carriers are for PvE or when you outclass the enemy so much that it's a contest to who can lock them fast enough to get on the kills.

In my opinion the only reasons there are nearly this many carriers used in PvP is because people already have them for ratting or fell for the official story that they're supposed to be a PvP ship too.
ApolloF117 HUN
Cranberrie knuckles
Mordus Angels
#2259 - 2017-06-15 10:17:41 UTC
I will repeat myself again if you nerf dps give something back, tracking or hp
Axhind
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#2260 - 2017-06-15 10:39:19 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Here we go a simple and elegant solution:

CCP imposes a ratting tax on supers and carriers of....100%.

You can rat in your carrier or your super, you just get nothing for it.

No other nerfs. All combat abilities are returned to where they were.


Holy ****, I know you are in AMOK but what the hell dude? Carrier/super ratting is the only engaging PvE activity that EVE has ever had. It can't be multiboxed and demands active play style.

Yes it is giving a bit too much isk at the moment and should be scaled to ticks of about 80 mil or so (roughly 4 afktars) but removing it completely is just absurd.

As to PvP the biggest issue right now is that they stop working in TiDi which means you need to recall and relaunch between every attack volley. This nerf is not going to do much to PvP anyway as DPS was **** to begin with.