Science & Industry

Hello. I plan to return to Eve later this summer, but I admit I'm quite out of the loop since I've been gone so long. I left years ago, when people had high sec POS, the overview was "+" icons and people made money manufacturing and researching in their own POS. I liked industry then, and made quite a bit of money manufacturing freighters, JF, BB, and capital ship components. My POS was designed with lots of EW, and was really too much of a hassle for most wardec corps to mess with. Life was good. I left because CCP turned my hobbie into a job, where I had to watch POS vulnerability windows while on vacation, which was unacceptable to me. Eve is a game, not a job.

I'm thinking about coming back to see if I can have some fun mining and building again. I like what CCP has done to the Orca, and I'm thinking I might be able to use other people's structures to conduct my industry. It's my understanding that the NPC stations are too expensive to be competitive these days.

I have a few questions for the industrial vets out there. I want to stay in high sec at least initially, until I figure everything out, so please assume any question refers to high sec industry.

1. I know POS structures are being phased out and that there are new structures to replace them. I don't know what they are and how to use them. I have seen YouTube videos about industry and it seems these POS replacements are all over the place. I can't imagine why, because they have no automated defense and do have vulnerability windows now. Seems like wardec groups would just go from tower to tower and either exact "protection" or take them out and loot the wrecks. What am I missing in this picture?

2. Where does one go to research BPO's inexpensively? What happens to the BPOs if that structure is destroyed?

3. ...to copy BPO's inexpensively? If destroyed?

4. ...to manufacture inexpensively? If destroyed?

5. ...to refine minerals at a decent rate?

5. I used to run different types of POS, with an investment of around 500 mil to 1 billion isk each, in tower, guns, and different labs, refining, and production facilities. I also played as a casual, solo player with a bunch of characters and alt accounts. Is it profitable and safe for people like me to try and build their own industrial facilities? If so, what are the costs to build these facilities like these days?

Thank you!

My advice, forget about POS ... and own ECs unless you have a PvP corp as backup or are willing to pay the ransom. You can't take a citadel down if attacked. There are plenty of public ECs in Highsec, you can negotiate conditions with the owners. Don't think anybody serious about it is still producing in NPC stations. Refining is done in citadels as well, and compression is (still) free. BPOs are never destroyed with the new structures, they are going to asset safety, everything else not in your hangar is lost at destruction.

There are a few other considerations:

1. Killing a Citadel or EC is neither fun or profitable (unless someone pays you to do it). It requires 3 fleets over 8 days and asset safety means no loot - only salvage. Most Raitaru in highsec are completely undefended - an attacker needs to maintain the damage cap for 30 minutes each to take down shields, armor and hull. The structure owner gets to pick the vulnerability window so - weekday mornings a couple of hours before downtime when Europe is at work and America is sleeping will make it an even less attractive target.

2. Renting offices in someone elses structure is not safer- their structure can be killed just as easily as yours. I've also discovered that even large, well respected landlords with structures throughout New Eden occasionally forget to fuel them!

3. Public engineering complexes tend to be clustered near trade hubs. It's convenient but pushes up the system cost index. There are still lots of systems in highsec with a SCI of 0.1% if you're willing to travel a few extra jumps.

4. An unrigged Raitaru costs around 600 million plus 27 fuel blocks/hour if you install 3 service modules. Rigs are about 500 million each for 2% ME bonus (or a 20% TE bonus). You decide if you're building enough to justify that investment. In my case, an advanced component rig is worth it - the others aren't.

I admit that I miss my small POS. It was cheaper, burned less fuel, had better bonuses and was portable - but the game changed. Given a choice between adapt or die, I picked adapt.

Haha! I love the idea about setting up the window based on convenience. How interesting that CCP has designed a structure that is basically a real pain to kill, and that drops no loot. I didn't quite put two and two together regarding the "safe move" until you brought it up. I have to admit I've been scratching my head at the number of these large structures I've seen in YouTube videos. "Why in the world are so many people willing to build something so expensive that can be so easily destroyed?" I had no idea there were three timers or that they payout was so low. My time in EVE is reminiscent of days filled with fear of wardecks and the loss of either the POS or the building materials / research time.

Yes, is it better to pay for your own fuel or depend on someone else to be conscientious? That is the real question. ;) Thanks!

Thanks for all the extra info about the Raitaru, SCI, and costs associated with setting one up.

ECs are extremely specialised.

I have one Raitaru for ME/TE research and blueprint copying. That is *all* that Raitaru is actively good at, but it is considerably better at it than a POS would be.

I have a POS for everything else, and am considering establishing a second Raitaru that is dedicated to building tech 2 frigates and tech 2 modules, or maybe an Azbel for general production.

In any case, I will abuse public ECs for low value but long duration jobs. I'd rather mess up someone else's system index than mess up a system I have invested over a billion (Raitaru) or five times that (Azbel) in.

I'll research expensive prints (say a FAX BPO to ME 9/TE 12) in my own system, and cheap ones (say a 1600mm plate BPO to 10/20) in someone else's.

Answer...

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Regards

Vex

Not entirely sure your specific questions were directly answered, so...

1) Engineering Complexes (EC). As has been stated it is a pain to destroy them so reason needed.

2) BPO research you need to find either an NPC station with a low system index, or a suitable EC that has had rigs applied to give ME/TE bonus, copy and invention bonuses can also be fitted. It is quite hard to know how well monitored the EC is, with regards to fuel etc, this doesn't necs mean that the bigger the corporation the better run either, in fact it can be just the opposite. Also moving a little away from a major trade hub is beneficial. Anything that is inside the EC goes to asset safety if the structure is destroyed.

3) See 2

4) See 2

5) At the moment this is done by looking for an astrahaus that has T2 reprocess rigs fitted, which in hi-sec will give a 54% base yield. Many include 54% in their name, but dont actually offer 54%, the only way to check is to dock with 100 veldspar and see what the rate is yourself. Also note that tax rates vary widely, I wouldn't pay more than 2%. Coming in the fall are refineries, which will then be the main source of this activity.

6) Slighlty more complex question as depends on indiviudal circumstances and setup etc. Feel free to drop me an IGM.