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[June] Fighter Damage Reduction

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Author
Heleana Commodus Luyseyal
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2161 - 2017-06-13 14:41:55 UTC
CCP should keep on mind that if ppl skilled up for something and invested their real money into it, when they nerf bat that same thing to uselessness, they should refund skill points that are thrown by players. Or at least that is what other companies are doing, like for example blizzards hearthstone.
Marek Kanenald
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2162 - 2017-06-13 14:46:29 UTC
You guys still whining about this?

Literally the only nerf that is left is a 10% light fighter basic damage nerf and a 20% heavy fighter basic damage nerf.


Even the proposed rat aggro was scrapped.


Wasn't this what you wanted?
Random Freak
Doomheim
#2163 - 2017-06-13 14:50:39 UTC
Marek Kanenald wrote:
You guys still whining about this?

Literally the only nerf that is left is a 10% light fighter basic damage nerf and a 20% heavy fighter basic damage nerf.


Even the proposed rat aggro was scrapped.


Wasn't this what you wanted?


No. What we want is the isk faucet being fixed, not an arbitrary nerf that will only work short term. We want the underlying cause fixed, not the symptoms.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#2164 - 2017-06-13 14:59:13 UTC
Heleana Commodus Luyseyal wrote:
CCP should keep on mind that if ppl skilled up for something and invested their real money into it, when they nerf bat that same thing to uselessness, they should refund skill points that are thrown by players. Or at least that is what other companies are doing, like for example blizzards hearthstone.


CCP isn't and should not be responsible for people's bad gameplay choices. Like if someone finds a way to use a ship to make 3 billion isk per tick and I skill inject into that ship despite having enough sense to know that CCP is going to nerf that as soon as they are aware of it, CCP would owe me nothing when they fixed the thing i was stupid enough to spend money on.

I still remain amazed at the fact the people can play EVE for years watching CCP ruthlessly nerf stuff that is too good and they STILL can't grasp the idea that going for the next big flavor of the month is a stupid idea.
Ikshuki
Sleepercore
#2165 - 2017-06-13 15:02:33 UTC
Ikshuki wrote:
And CCP wonders why players quits or never increases their active player base. This change will literally turn carriers into super cap logis rendering fighters pointless. Better off just removing fighter bonuses from the bonus tab. Besides why is it a sin to run complexes in carriers? it's our ships, we grind grind and grind to build those ships, we deserve to take the risk of using them any way we want, i'm pretty sure you'll find some dummy trying to run complexes in a titan if you look hard enough, just to try and solo incursions, if ppl starts doing incursions solo in a tian, will that mean you'll nerf titans as well? where will it stop?

How CCP should've handled the issue:

1. place ship restrictions on complexes in null with acceleration gates

2. reduce the rewards for running complexes

3. Remove ghost sites from the game you just implimented, since you don't want an isk faucet, ghost sites only encourages rapid isk generation

4. remove plex from in-game market and make plex a cash shop only vanity (apparently you want money)

5. nerf the number of combat sites active in one system by 50% in null, this is reasonably considering in null there can be up to 50 sites active in any given time which means a ton of isk being made 23/7

6. nerf incursion rewards by 10% on bounties
but honestly, if we're looking at a complete revamp job on fighter drones and carrier mechanic, we need to consider doing the following to equal out the numbers spreadsheet:

1. if fighters will have 50% drone aggro to npcs, then let's consider Adding a drone bastion module that gives 50% bonus to all attributes including movement speed, and while bastion module is active, the supercarrier compromises active tank modules to divert all capacitor energy to boosting the drone's survivability rate

2. Add drone command busts up to 3 bursts active at once with a 5% drone damage reduction drawback per link active


Raz Tanta
Lisnave
Pandemic Horde
#2166 - 2017-06-13 15:06:55 UTC
My dear CCP ..

As you can see after you make thids great nerff to the carriers and f*** the game at same players , you give a shoot again in your shoes ...
HOW the f*** is possibel in 15 minutes one of my friends do this valour in ISK in this new event rougue swarm ...
You dont belive her eis the screen https://prnt.sc/fjajw2 ...
So i thing is better you begin to realize you do s*** ...
Dont come with historys about economy ...
So what you gone say ????
I hope you give to all us a nice and correct answer...

And this event is until June 27th...
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2167 - 2017-06-13 15:10:12 UTC
Raz Tanta wrote:
My dear CCP ..

As you can see after you make thids great nerff to the carriers and f*** the game at same players , you give a shoot again in your shoes ...
HOW the f*** is possibel in 15 minutes one of my friends do this valour in ISK in this new event rougue swarm ...
You dont belive her eis the screen https://prnt.sc/fjajw2 ...
So i thing is better you begin to realize you do s*** ...
Dont come with historys about economy ...
So what you gone say ????
I hope you give to all us a nice and correct answer...

And this event is until June 27th...


you think he gonna be making that sort of money till the 27th? no, those skins will be worthless in a few hours when eu primetime hits

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Feracitus
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2168 - 2017-06-13 15:10:50 UTC
The underlying problem is the infinite nature of the ISK currency. Limit the money supply by actually limiting the money supply. Transform ISK in a blockchain based cryptocurrency with a market cap and limited supply.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2169 - 2017-06-13 15:12:13 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:

Yes it is a systemic problem with 2 regions sticking out like sore thumbs.

Top 10 regions for bounties.

Delve 8.76918E+12 12.14%
Deklein 4.46455E+12 6.18%
Branch 3.11909E+12 4.32%
Cobalt Edge 2.96567E+12 4.11%
Outer Passage 2.66506E+12 3.69%
Querious 2.6635E+12 3.69%
Feythabolis 2.60413E+12 3.61%
Period Basis 2.46879E+12 3.42%
Providence 2.45647E+12 3.40%
Esoteria 2.37196E+12 3.28%

But like all of the over done crap in Null, if CCP ever try to fix it they will be greeted with a waves of tears so great as to make all that have come before it look like a drip in an ocean.

Now the fact that CCP has caved in to the whining in such a huge manner to a massive alteration to the economy done by such a small number of people has shown everyone else that Null still rules supreme and will be given what ever they want if they cry enough about it.

These changes were even approved by the CSM, yet since their change not one word has been uttered by a CSM member.


Again, if it is systemic it is not "2 regions". What those two regions represent is what happens when you have an unbalanced class of ships and organized groups. The organized groups take advantage of the unbalanced ships.

One could go, "Oh XXXX groups should not do that." But that is stupid wishful pie-in-the-sky thinking. People are going to respond to the incentives they encounter. Expecting them to not respond in this way is to expect people to not be people.

At the end of the day, way too much ISK is entering the economy. From what regions or from whom is largely irrelevant. Because if you try to micro-manage it it probably won't work. What you are going to nerf the top 20 regions? Yeah, that's not going to cause people to quit also....that is just as discriminatory as the carrier/super nerf if not more so.

This thread confirms my view of people in a collective decision making setting. People are short sighted, focused only on what is good for them, screw everyone else, and relying on faulty logic and idiocy. And people wonder why CCP ignores them. Because the vast majority of the views expressed here fall into this category. We have had people argue that a massive increase in the money supply won't cause inflation never mind all the examples to the contrary. We have had people argue the cost of their ship should dictate their ratting rewards which basically creates an incentive for everyone to carrier/supper rat thus exacerbating the problem. Then there are just the pure incoherent rage posts.

Seriously, there have been a number of replies to me, "Yes, but it is your alliance causing the problem!" What does this mean, even if it were true? I'm calling for a nerf on this...and yeah, I'm in GSF. Most rational disinterested people would see it as lending credibility to my statements, but we have exactly the opposite in this thread. How can I not conclude that these people are just blinkered morons who'd shoot themselves in the foot and then proclaim they intended to do that, or even worse, blame somebody else. Seriously, scroll back and see how many GSF members here are complaining. I am not supporting them*. I am saying exactly the opposite--this kind of growth in the money supply has to stop.

This kind of growth in the money supply is way, way too large to let it continue. Sitting around going "Grrr Goons" might make you feel better, but it does nothing to address the problem. At all.

*Unless it is to bar/ban carriers and supers from ratting temporarily while a solution is found that preserves the PvP aspects of carriers and supers...if that is indeed a valid issue.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Toxic Yaken
Deaths Consortium
Pandemic Horde
#2170 - 2017-06-13 15:13:24 UTC
Raz Tanta wrote:
My dear CCP ..

As you can see after you make thids great nerff to the carriers and f*** the game at same players , you give a shoot again in your shoes ...
HOW the f*** is possibel in 15 minutes one of my friends do this valour in ISK in this new event rougue swarm ...
You dont belive her eis the screen https://prnt.sc/fjajw2 ...
So i thing is better you begin to realize you do s*** ...
Dont come with historys about economy ...
So what you gone say ????
I hope you give to all us a nice and correct answer...

And this event is until June 27th...


There's a difference between an isk faucet and loot drops...

Curator of the Wardec Project - Join our Discord to join the discussions about Wardecs

Marek Kanenald
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2171 - 2017-06-13 15:13:36 UTC
Feracitus wrote:
The underlying problem is the infinite nature of the ISK currency. Limit the money supply by actually limiting the money supply. Transform ISK in a blockchain based cryptocurrency with a market cap and limited supply.


....Or just nerf anomaly respawn times.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2172 - 2017-06-13 15:17:08 UTC
Feracitus wrote:
The underlying problem is the infinite nature of the ISK currency. Limit the money supply by actually limiting the money supply. Transform ISK in a blockchain based cryptocurrency with a market cap and limited supply.


ISK is already a synthetic commodity currency like bit coin. People convert electricity into bit coin, and people convert (leisure) time into ISK. With changes to carriers/supers it looks like it is "too easy" to convert (leisure) time into ISK.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Ikshuki
Sleepercore
#2173 - 2017-06-13 15:18:31 UTC
Marek Kanenald wrote:
Feracitus wrote:
The underlying problem is the infinite nature of the ISK currency. Limit the money supply by actually limiting the money supply. Transform ISK in a blockchain based cryptocurrency with a market cap and limited supply.


....Or just nerf anomaly respawn times.
exactly, not just nerf it, but to have forced acc gates that dictates what ships can pass, but then again, what was the point of having supercap npcs to fight if not to use capships to kill it? why couldn't the ghost sites just be limited to up to a deadnought
C0ATL
Renegade Stars
Stellae Renascitur
#2174 - 2017-06-13 15:25:01 UTC  |  Edited by: C0ATL
Jenn aSide wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:

  • We are working on changes to Anomalies that will reduce the effectiveness of Carriers and Supercarriers. These changes will be announced at a later date.[/list]


  • Noticed this part. I'll be paying special attention to this, because this is the area where everyone can get messed up.



    And you can bet that even after they bump capitals out of the anomalies they wont bother returning the 10% dmg they took. After all Carrier is just a sinonym for Cancer in CCP's dictionary as of late. They woudnt want to give cancer a fighting chance now, would they? :D

    Pathetic.

    *
    *
    *

    There have been many players that gave ideas on how to change PVE in order to not need the carrier nerfs.
    The following is my 2 cents:

    Gate every anomaly per ship class... with a variation of Hidden and Forsaken types for those who want more of a challenge for that particular class.

    Burrow/Hideaway/Refuge/Den + Hidden/Forsaken variations ---> Frigs
    Yard/ Rally Point/ Port + Hidden/Forsaken variations ----> Cruisers
    Hub + Hidden/Forsaken variations ----> Battlecruisers
    Haven/Sanctum ----> Battleships

    This way, you dont need to nerf the entire PVE bounties when you notice that a particular ship type is gaining too much ISK, or nerf the ship itself in pvp by extent. Just reduce bounties or modify NPCs in those particular sites. You would be setting yourself up for an easier tackle of such problems in the future.
    VNIs and Ishtars wont be able to just AFK rat in Havens and Sanctums --- Sure they will do it in the cruiser designated sites but for less bounty and players will also need to swap sites faster, thus forcing them to more active.
    Have a few exceptions that can go to all of the above mentioned sites, ignoring class restriction... I.E. T3 cruisers. That way when a group wants to raise their index after capturing territory they cant complain about being forced to play with frigs and whatnot.


    Now onto capitals:

    Create a new Anomaly
    Example: Blood Raider Capital Shipyard - restricted to carriers. Spawn 1 NPC dread + occasional waves of elite frigs and/or elite cruisers. Have the waves always aggro player ship instead of Fighters. That way players cant complain about their fighters being one-shotted by the dread while killing the additional spawns, and with the dread hitting a carrier constantly, it also presents a fair cap management and tanking challenge.
    From all people flying carriers atm, only a few manage to solo dreads and even then it can be problematic and time consuming -- and if multiple carriers enter the same anomaly to make it easier, the bounty gets split and thus, individual ticks are lowered. Multiboxing in carriers is brain melting anyway so you cant have 2nd or 3rd carrier alt helping you out so players would choose between working with a different player or attempting to solo.
    Make the frigs/cruiser waves put points on the player ship...that way players wont be able to just cherry-pick the Dread and move onto the next site or specialize their fighters only for taking out a capital ship.


    Finally Supercarriers:
    Just as with carriers, create a new anomally completely for them
    Example: Guristas Headquarters - solely restricted to Supercarriers. Guarded by 1 NPC titan spawn + periodic waves of elite frigates/cruisers and battleships. Same aggro rules as with the carrier site, but elite cruisers get to have the infinite point of HICs for obvious reasons.
    Now, before I get reprimanded -- yes, I am aware that atm an NPC Titan can be soloed by 1 dread and thus a supercarrier would eat it up immediately BUT the anomally titan does not need to have the same stats as the current NPC one that appears randomly nor should it have the same bounty. Numbers should be crunched and after careful thought and experimentation and player consultation, the anomaly titan spawn should have stats that --just as a current NPC dread does to carriers -- offers a challenge to a supercarrier. I would even include a tweaked doomsday, if it were up to me.



    *
    *
    *

    In the end, if implemented in a balanced way for both players and game economy, such a project would:
    -Offer players a satisfying experience depending on the ship class they prefer to use
    - To a very small extent, reduce the impact of AFK cruiser ratting....
    - Make capital and supercapital pilots not feel like they are stepping on ants while ratting due to the complete lack of a challenge in Havens and Sanctums.
    - Increase the risk of capital ratting by having NPCs focus Carriers and Supercarriers with points and infinite scram, respectively. (Also, if anomalies are gated, a player cant warp to a prefered/safe distance from the site so that he can take out all point-equipped ships before they even get a chance to hold him.)
    - Allow CCP to more easily tweak only the problematic side of PVE if their current predicament surfaces again in the future, instead of all of it (like overall reduction in bounties) ...or in a way that affects PVP.

    *
    Yes, this would mean them needing to put out some effort in terms of balancing or new anomaly design... And I'm sure that people will find some flaws with the above portrayed ideas. But its better than tearing down the whole nullsec pve and starting from the ground up... not to mention its much more realistic to achieve rather than a complete overhaul of PVE -- or not doing anything at all.

    THINK CCP.... THINK! Give us something or ask the community if you are out of ideas but start FIXING your game properly!
    Until such a time, my accounts remain unsubed. :/

    o7
    Cargo Inspector
    Miners Guild of New Eden
    #2175 - 2017-06-13 15:27:28 UTC
    If CCP had just said "We think Carriers and Super Carriers are too strong in PVP" and applied the 10% reduction to lights and 20% to heavies, would there have been this much rage? I get the impression that the focus on the justification of changing it for PVE just made everyone flip ****. They were obviously trying to just get two birds with one stone.

    Traxanas Suruklemes
    YZI K
    Shadow of xXDEATHXx
    #2176 - 2017-06-13 15:29:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Traxanas Suruklemes
    so let me get this str8.

    you need to contain the income from the carrier ratting faucet cause all the rest are near obsolete. (that's how good you are @ balancing so far).

    so Nerf the effective damage of your indicating ship type being used. 10%?

    the only thing you achieved is make us rat 10% more in order to hit the plex mark or whatever goal anyone has.

    personally i rat lika boss with 4 carriers simultaneously. if u read my previus comments on a realtive nerf topic << i play the piano on my keyboard>> (thenk's for shortcuts by the way).

    i haven't lost a carrier since i started ratting cause im as careful as one might get in null. i bet there are allot like me out there.

    so my point is.

    do you even plan these changes or you just playing with your player base?

    what you actually did is increase play time for players by 10%. that's not allot. even if it whould be 20%, still it whouldnt be enough.

    your problem will still be there, the money will still flow out of thin air and then you need to rethink this again. the faucet is there and will run like crazy. but something tells me youre gonna hit carriers once more so ill ratt even harder to save up for whatever dump crap solution you folks come up in the future.

    peace.

    id like to say though a small thanks for being a bit gentile and taking a lower nerf then the one that was pre announced. just to be fare.
    Ikshuki
    Sleepercore
    #2177 - 2017-06-13 15:33:44 UTC
    Traxanas Suruklemes wrote:
    so let me get this str8.

    you need to contain the income from the carrier ratting faucet cause all the rest are near obsolete. (that's how good you are @ balancing so far).

    so Nerf the effective damage of your indicating ship type being used. 10%?

    the only thing you achieved is make us rat 10% more in order to hit the plex mark or whatever goal anyone has.

    personally i rat lika boss with 4 carriers simultaneously. if u read my previus comments on a realtive nerf topic << i play the piano on my keyboard>> (thenk's for shortcuts by the way).

    i haven't lost a carrier since i started ratting cause im as careful as one might get in null. i bet there are allot like me out there.

    so my point is.

    do you even plan these changes or you just playing with your player base?

    what you actually did is increase play time for players by 10%. that's not allot. even if it whould be 20%, still it whouldnt be enough.

    your problem will still be there, the money will still flow out of thin air and then you need to rethink this again. the faucet is there and will run like crazy. but something tells me youre gonna hit carriers once more so ill ratt even harder to save up for whatever dump crap solution you folks come up in the future.

    peace.

    hey stop giving them ideas
    Axhind
    Eternity INC.
    Goonswarm Federation
    #2178 - 2017-06-13 15:38:13 UTC
    Lan Wang wrote:
    Mary Timeshift Jane wrote:
    Gimme Sake wrote:
    Looking at the arguments in this thread "Mah super cost me 27 bil y u nurf it?!?!" "I nvested x amount of moneyz now the sand box is mine!" "Nerf them not me!" "Blame the game not the player!" "I've made 50 alts now I deserve eternal bliss!" etc.

    In case anyone wonders in the future why CCP (or any other company) goes pay 2 win... as long as the players pick isk making over game balance it can't ever go towards gameplay. Simply because that is what the player base asks for.


    What gameplay is there to pick? Those frigate, occasionally cruiser, roams most people are doing most of the time? So much fun.. are they, not.


    make your own content maybe? however you sound like you prefer the repetitive nature of grinding of the same npc's constantly, so much fun...


    And that is coming from someone hiding in NPC stations and space. No wonder you like fozzie, his biggest contribution is worthless sov and interceptors who's only counter is 6 titans with SBs on a gate.
    Huren Ogeko
    Short Bus Ballaz
    Brothers of Tangra
    #2179 - 2017-06-13 15:39:32 UTC
    izardx Madullier wrote:
    what a joke, shame on you CCP!!!! you have ruined fighters for me

    !!!

    Im loosing more now then i used to! unfair!



    You do realize that the fighter aggro nerf never happened. So if you are losing more fighters now then you were before then it has nothing to do with the nerfs here only the way you are deploying them now compared to before.
    Huren Ogeko
    Short Bus Ballaz
    Brothers of Tangra
    #2180 - 2017-06-13 15:45:26 UTC
    On a side note I am wondering how badly this nerf is really affecting ratting. One of my corp mates reported this morning that his has the same ticks now as before and the only change is takes 2-3 volley's to take out a battleship now. Pre-patch he showed an average of 102mil ticks and after patch his first tick was around 106 mil. Maybe this nerf took away the overkill making less dps wasted on small ships and did little to affect the overall site times.

    Does anyone else have any hard results in how it affects their ratting?