These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[June] Fighter Damage Reduction

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Destriouth Hollow
Star-Destroying-Warlords
#2081 - 2017-06-13 09:36:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Destriouth Hollow
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:


The Data:
Let’s set the stage for the decision by taking sample of 5 days in June. During that timeframe 10.6 Trillion ISK was rewarded in bounties. Of that:
  • 22.3% (2.3T) of the ISK was generated by 1.4% of characters earning bounties, using Supercarriers
  • 24.2% (2.6T) of the ISK was generated by 4.8% of characters earning bounties, using Carriers
  • 19.1% (2T) of the ISK was generated by 16.6% of characters earning bounties, using T1 Cruisers
Just under half (46.5%) of the bounties earned during the time period was generated by Supercarriers and Carriers, meaning a small percent of the population received a huge portion of the total bounties.



"Don't trust statistics, you didn't forge yourself" (:

22,3% of the isk was earned by 1,4% of the players (supers)
46,5% of the isk was earned by 6,2% of the players (supers + carriers)

a) Your 100% even included highsec-miners that shoot an npc frig for a bounty of 5 isk every hour
b) These figures don't include that these ships were singleboxing, so it was most likely all the isk these chars earned.
c) These chars are likely the highest skilled characters of your 100%. Capitals are a ship of choice for long-time/highskill players.
d) It doesn't include HOW LONG these 6,2% ratted. Maybe they ratted 4 times as long as the average other player? Your statistics do include players that log in once a month, shoot a single npc frig and log off again.
e) In general this compares people that only get bounties on the side to anomaly ratters that exclusively get the bounties. People that earn bounties on the side are: miners, incursion runners, ded runners, hell even pvpers with gate-rats.



If you really want to compare capital-ratting to other ships, do the following:
1) Take only bounties that came from ratting anomalies (caps don't rat anywhere else)
2) Take only bounties that came from nullsec (cap's don't rat anywhere else)
3)Take into account the actual time spent ratting (The amount of bounty-ticks generated will work reasonably)

I would REALLY be interested in THAT statistic, as it would actually be usefull information.

Like:
xx,x% of the ticks in nullsec-anos were done by supers. They earned xx,x% of the nullsec-ano bounties.
xx,x% of the ticks in nullsec-anos were done by carriers. They earned xx,x% of the nullsec-ano bounties.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#2082 - 2017-06-13 09:40:22 UTC
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
If you really want to compare capital-ratting to other ships, do the following:
1) Take only bounties that came from ratting anomalies (caps don't rat anywhere else)
2) Take only bounties that came from nullsec (cap's don't rat anywhere else)
3) Divide them by the amount of time spent to generate that isk (The amount of bounty-ticks generated will work reasonably)

I would REALLY be interested in THAT statistic, as it would actually be usefull information.

Haven't you been paying attention? They get up to 260 mil ticks. What more do you need to know?
Destriouth Hollow
Star-Destroying-Warlords
#2083 - 2017-06-13 09:48:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Destriouth Hollow
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
If you really want to compare capital-ratting to other ships, do the following:
1) Take only bounties that came from ratting anomalies (caps don't rat anywhere else)
2) Take only bounties that came from nullsec (cap's don't rat anywhere else)
3) Divide them by the amount of time spent to generate that isk (The amount of bounty-ticks generated will work reasonably)

I would REALLY be interested in THAT statistic, as it would actually be usefull information.

Haven't you been paying attention? They get up to 260 mil ticks. What more do you need to know?


Nope they don't.
A maxed out carrier with 3500 dps and utter squishy-pve-fit can get 6-70 ticks. But maybe not even that on a regular basis.
A super can never get 4 times that. All the warping, and the missing damage prevents that. I expect 160 if you are REALLY good.
Petros K
C5 Flight
Fraternity.
#2084 - 2017-06-13 09:50:43 UTC
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
If you really want to compare capital-ratting to other ships, do the following:
1) Take only bounties that came from ratting anomalies (caps don't rat anywhere else)
2) Take only bounties that came from nullsec (cap's don't rat anywhere else)
3) Divide them by the amount of time spent to generate that isk (The amount of bounty-ticks generated will work reasonably)

I would REALLY be interested in THAT statistic, as it would actually be usefull information.

Haven't you been paying attention? They get up to 260 mil ticks. What more do you need to know?


260m tick would mean that some1 is killing 1 haven in 2-2half minutes. Is it even possible ?
Axhind
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#2085 - 2017-06-13 09:56:45 UTC
Jarmen4u wrote:
Mary Timeshift Jane wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Again, this will **** over people who cannot play every day. Why should we punish everyone when its a fraction of the playerbase that are causing the problem?


What's the problem? That a fraction of player base just as a fraction of humans in real life, have great dreams they want to achieve so they put in the work to achieve them?
Having and achieving dreams is a problem now? The world this is becoming...

The problem is that this is too great a source of too much ISK. It will cause long-term issues if it's not dealt with. Also, what dreams are there to achieve once you're at a level that you can AFK rat in a super? There's not much upward mobility to go once you're a super pilot. Now, if they were nerfing the income for VNIs or other subcaps, that would certainly crush the dreams of those who are trying to achieve. But if you're in a super, you've already succeeded. At that point, it's not even work. The problem becomes, your money is making money for you, just like in real life. Rich get richer, etc etc. Not a good economical decision in game or in real life.



Can you show this AFK carrier/super ratting as I have not been able to see it. At the moment (pre patch) if you look away for a few seconds you can be certain to lose at least a fighter and maybe several. Fighters need active commands to orbit/shoot/launch extra weapon so there is exactly zero AFKability in carrier/super ratting. It is only PvE that can't be multiboxed and that is somewhat engaging as you have to pay attention constantly.

Supers might be a bit too high income but something closer to 100 mil per tick (realistic tick not Quant cherry picked one) would be perfectly fine as that is comparable to 5 ishtars which is perfectly possible to multibox without too many issues (or any depending on the type of rats you have, delve sucks ass for this due to neuting rats).
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2086 - 2017-06-13 09:58:12 UTC
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:


The Data:
Let’s set the stage for the decision by taking sample of 5 days in June. During that timeframe 10.6 Trillion ISK was rewarded in bounties. Of that:
  • 22.3% (2.3T) of the ISK was generated by 1.4% of characters earning bounties, using Supercarriers
  • 24.2% (2.6T) of the ISK was generated by 4.8% of characters earning bounties, using Carriers
  • 19.1% (2T) of the ISK was generated by 16.6% of characters earning bounties, using T1 Cruisers
Just under half (46.5%) of the bounties earned during the time period was generated by Supercarriers and Carriers, meaning a small percent of the population received a huge portion of the total bounties.



"Don't trust statistics, you didn't forge yourself" (:

22,3% of the isk was earned by 1,4% of the players (supers)
46,5% of the isk was earned by 6,2% of the players (supers + carriers)

a) Your 100% even included highsec-miners that shoot an npc frig for a bounty of 5 isk every hour
b) These figures don't include that these ships were singleboxing, so it was most likely all the isk these chars earned.
c) These chars are likely the highest skilled characters of your 100%. Capitals are a ship of choice for long-time/highskill players.
d) It doesn't include HOW LONG these 6,2% ratted. Maybe they ratted 4 times as long as the average other player? Your statistics do include players that log in once a month, shoot a single npc frig and log off again.
e) In general this compares people that only get bounties on the side to anomaly ratters that exclusively get the bounties. People that earn bounties on the side are: miners, incursion runners, ded runners, hell even pvpers with gate-rats.



If you really want to compare capital-ratting to other ships, do the following:
1) Take only bounties that came from ratting anomalies (caps don't rat anywhere else)
2) Take only bounties that came from nullsec (cap's don't rat anywhere else)
3)Take into account the actual time spent ratting (The amount of bounty-ticks generated will work reasonably)

I would REALLY be interested in THAT statistic, as it would actually be usefull information.

Like:
xx,x% of the ticks in nullsec-anos were done by supers. They earned xx,x% of the nullsec-ano bounties.
xx,x% of the ticks in nullsec-anos were done by carriers. They earned xx,x% of the nullsec-ano bounties.



The number will be even worse. They are already showing that supers and carriers are making up around half of the bounties despite being only 6.2% of the population earning bounties.
Destriouth Hollow
Star-Destroying-Warlords
#2087 - 2017-06-13 09:58:56 UTC
Petros K wrote:
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
If you really want to compare capital-ratting to other ships, do the following:
1) Take only bounties that came from ratting anomalies (caps don't rat anywhere else)
2) Take only bounties that came from nullsec (cap's don't rat anywhere else)
3) Divide them by the amount of time spent to generate that isk (The amount of bounty-ticks generated will work reasonably)

I would REALLY be interested in THAT statistic, as it would actually be usefull information.

Haven't you been paying attention? They get up to 260 mil ticks. What more do you need to know?


260m tick would mean that some1 is killing 1 haven in 2-2half minutes. Is it even possible ?


A haven should have 30mil-ish. So in order to get 260mil you would have to do like 9 havens in 20 min. Warping 9 times will cost you like 20 sec each at least. 3 min are pure warping, assume you are permaaligned. 17minutes/9 means you will have to do each haven in 1,8 minutes.
ohm.... no!!! (:
Axhind
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#2088 - 2017-06-13 09:59:01 UTC
Petros K wrote:
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
If you really want to compare capital-ratting to other ships, do the following:
1) Take only bounties that came from ratting anomalies (caps don't rat anywhere else)
2) Take only bounties that came from nullsec (cap's don't rat anywhere else)
3) Divide them by the amount of time spent to generate that isk (The amount of bounty-ticks generated will work reasonably)

I would REALLY be interested in THAT statistic, as it would actually be usefull information.

Haven't you been paying attention? They get up to 260 mil ticks. What more do you need to know?


260m tick would mean that some1 is killing 1 haven in 2-2half minutes. Is it even possible ?


It is in titans IIRC but the price of DD fuel went so high that it wasn't paying off according to our titan jews.

Also I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm ;)
Destriouth Hollow
Star-Destroying-Warlords
#2089 - 2017-06-13 10:00:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Destriouth Hollow
baltec1 wrote:
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:


The Data:
Let’s set the stage for the decision by taking sample of 5 days in June. During that timeframe 10.6 Trillion ISK was rewarded in bounties. Of that:
  • 22.3% (2.3T) of the ISK was generated by 1.4% of characters earning bounties, using Supercarriers
  • 24.2% (2.6T) of the ISK was generated by 4.8% of characters earning bounties, using Carriers
  • 19.1% (2T) of the ISK was generated by 16.6% of characters earning bounties, using T1 Cruisers
Just under half (46.5%) of the bounties earned during the time period was generated by Supercarriers and Carriers, meaning a small percent of the population received a huge portion of the total bounties.



"Don't trust statistics, you didn't forge yourself" (:

22,3% of the isk was earned by 1,4% of the players (supers)
46,5% of the isk was earned by 6,2% of the players (supers + carriers)

a) Your 100% even included highsec-miners that shoot an npc frig for a bounty of 5 isk every hour
b) These figures don't include that these ships were singleboxing, so it was most likely all the isk these chars earned.
c) These chars are likely the highest skilled characters of your 100%. Capitals are a ship of choice for long-time/highskill players.
d) It doesn't include HOW LONG these 6,2% ratted. Maybe they ratted 4 times as long as the average other player? Your statistics do include players that log in once a month, shoot a single npc frig and log off again.
e) In general this compares people that only get bounties on the side to anomaly ratters that exclusively get the bounties. People that earn bounties on the side are: miners, incursion runners, ded runners, hell even pvpers with gate-rats.



If you really want to compare capital-ratting to other ships, do the following:
1) Take only bounties that came from ratting anomalies (caps don't rat anywhere else)
2) Take only bounties that came from nullsec (cap's don't rat anywhere else)
3)Take into account the actual time spent ratting (The amount of bounty-ticks generated will work reasonably)

I would REALLY be interested in THAT statistic, as it would actually be usefull information.

Like:
xx,x% of the ticks in nullsec-anos were done by supers. They earned xx,x% of the nullsec-ano bounties.
xx,x% of the ticks in nullsec-anos were done by carriers. They earned xx,x% of the nullsec-ano bounties.



The number will be even worse. They are already showing that supers and carriers are making up around half of the bounties despite being only 6.2% of the population earning bounties.


Nope the statics will be much more evenly for all the reasons I listed. The average capital-ratter rats more per month . I expect FAR more than 6,2% of all nullsec-ano-ticks be generated by caps. FAR MORE.
I expect 30-45% of all nullsec ratting be done by capitals.
Kalioria
Spartan Vanguard
#2090 - 2017-06-13 10:02:48 UTC
Where large amounts of isks are spent in eve:
- For new ships
- For new structures

When players need new structures and ships:
- When they move to another place and there is no point to move them
- When ships and structures are destroyed.

So to increase demand we need more ships and structures to be destroyed. That means we need some huge wars and currently there are no reasons for them, because there is not so much interest in conquering enemy territory. So probably instead of nerfing income sources it was better to add more reasons to fight with each other?

There always will be people who earn more than others just because they put more effort in it. So why their income should be reduced?

For example there may be some special events, some rats that collect wrecks from player battlefields and spawn only if some amount of capital ships were destroyed by opposite fractions? Meaning that several alliances should have neutral or negative standings, make a huge fight and then some third npc force come there to collect their wrecks and defend themselves. Think about some special reward and probably people will fight again?

Because now pvp mostly looks like - fleet of 50 cruisers comes into enemy territory, then:
a) they kill some carrybears
b) they are killed by 100-150 enemy fleets on the same trash cans
c) they are dropped by several capitals and also killed
d) if they are lucky - they go home with nothing.
e) hardly ever there is some interesting fight.

Just make eve pvp great again and people will spend isks and not just collect them.

Accepting isk donations for ammo.
Axhind
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#2091 - 2017-06-13 10:05:57 UTC
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
[quote=baltec1]
Nope the statics will be much more evenly for all the reasons I listed. The average capital-ratter rats more per month . I expect FAR more than 6,2% of all nullsec-ano-ticks be generated by caps. FAR MORE.



Will be interesting how well/if they can detect multiboxing. Running several ishtars is easy as is running them in the background while working. Something that is not the case with capital ratting. I know that I stopped carrier ratting due to losing fighters if I look away for a sec, while worst that happens in an ishtar is that I get a bit lower tick.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2092 - 2017-06-13 10:05:59 UTC
Destriouth Hollow wrote:


Nope the statics will be much more evenly for all the reasons I listed. The average capital-ratter rats more per month . I expect FAR more than 6,2% of all nullsec-ano-ticks be generated by caps. FAR MORE.


Disgusting is it not?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2093 - 2017-06-13 10:07:30 UTC
Axhind wrote:
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
[quote=baltec1]
Nope the statics will be much more evenly for all the reasons I listed. The average capital-ratter rats more per month . I expect FAR more than 6,2% of all nullsec-ano-ticks be generated by caps. FAR MORE.



Will be interesting how well/if they can detect multiboxing. Running several ishtars is easy as is running them in the background while working. Something that is not the case with capital ratting. I know that I stopped carrier ratting due to losing fighters if I look away for a sec, while worst that happens in an ishtar is that I get a bit lower tick.


oh its still possible to multibox 2-3 carriers/supers if you have the right rig.
Axhind
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#2094 - 2017-06-13 10:08:54 UTC
Kalioria wrote:
Where large amounts of isks are spent in eve:
- For new ships
- For new structures

When players need new structures and ships:
- When they move to another place and there is no point to move them
- When ships and structures are destroyed.

So to increase demand we need more ships and structures to be destroyed. That means we need some huge wars and currently there are no reasons for them, because there is not so much interest in conquering enemy territory. So probably instead of nerfing income sources it was better to add more reasons to fight with each other?

There always will be people who earn more than others just because they put more effort in it. So why their income should be reduced?

For example there may be some special events, some rats that collect wrecks from player battlefields and spawn only if some amount of capital ships were destroyed by opposite fractions? Meaning that several alliances should have neutral or negative standings, make a huge fight and then some third npc force come there to collect their wrecks and defend themselves. Think about some special reward and probably people will fight again?

Because now pvp mostly looks like - fleet of 50 cruisers comes into enemy territory, then:
a) they kill some carrybears
b) they are killed by 100-150 enemy fleets on the same trash cans
c) they are dropped by several capitals and also killed
d) if they are lucky - they go home with nothing.
e) hardly ever there is some interesting fight.

Just make eve pvp great again and people will spend isks and not just collect them.


Actually your entire premise is wrong. Destruction of ships is an isk faucet (except suicide gankers in high sec). The isk is shuffled around and insurance is injecting huge amounts of isk. You losing isk doesn't mean it is gone, just transferred to someone else.

Down south there is quite a lot of good action with PL/NC. vs Test/CO2 vs CVA vs Imperium vs whoever.
Axhind
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#2095 - 2017-06-13 10:10:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Axhind wrote:
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
[quote=baltec1]
Nope the statics will be much more evenly for all the reasons I listed. The average capital-ratter rats more per month . I expect FAR more than 6,2% of all nullsec-ano-ticks be generated by caps. FAR MORE.



Will be interesting how well/if they can detect multiboxing. Running several ishtars is easy as is running them in the background while working. Something that is not the case with capital ratting. I know that I stopped carrier ratting due to losing fighters if I look away for a sec, while worst that happens in an ishtar is that I get a bit lower tick.


oh its still possible to multibox 2-3 carriers/supers if you have the right rig.


Show us this multiboxing of carriers then (no input broadcasting obviously) and just how long can you keep it up manually.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#2096 - 2017-06-13 10:11:35 UTC
Ok, my bad. I forgot sarcasm doesn't come across very well in text. Any references I may make to 260 mil ticks are referring to CCP Quant's glorious reddit post about supers getting up to 260 mil ticks and making 780 mil an hour per account.
Mary Timeshift Jane
Doomheim
#2097 - 2017-06-13 10:12:41 UTC
Petros K wrote:
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
If you really want to compare capital-ratting to other ships, do the following:
1) Take only bounties that came from ratting anomalies (caps don't rat anywhere else)
2) Take only bounties that came from nullsec (cap's don't rat anywhere else)
3) Divide them by the amount of time spent to generate that isk (The amount of bounty-ticks generated will work reasonably)

I would REALLY be interested in THAT statistic, as it would actually be usefull information.

Haven't you been paying attention? They get up to 260 mil ticks. What more do you need to know?


260m tick would mean that some1 is killing 1 haven in 2-2half minutes. Is it even possible ?


No, it isn't. My current record time for a haven is 3minutes 24seconds (from spawn to finish or more than that seconds having to wait for them to spawn after arriving in site). Excluding bomb use due to weapons timer, all guns cycling nonstop in perfect rhythm. With use of bombs it would be slightly faster.

It's very high intensity clickfest requiring very high focus and precision. Like when ratting becomes a sport. But how could people whose best achievement is probably just holding a beer understand that.
Mary Timeshift Jane
Doomheim
#2098 - 2017-06-13 10:15:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Mary Timeshift Jane
Petros K wrote:
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
If you really want to compare capital-ratting to other ships, do the following:
1) Take only bounties that came from ratting anomalies (caps don't rat anywhere else)
2) Take only bounties that came from nullsec (cap's don't rat anywhere else)
3) Divide them by the amount of time spent to generate that isk (The amount of bounty-ticks generated will work reasonably)

I would REALLY be interested in THAT statistic, as it would actually be usefull information.

Haven't you been paying attention? They get up to 260 mil ticks. What more do you need to know?


260m tick would mean that some1 is killing 1 haven in 2-2half minutes. Is it even possible ?


No, 260m is the highest tick ever recorded with a dreadspawn worth 120m in bounty on the top of your regular tick, which CCP_Quant forgot to mention, or is not even aware of himself most likely.
120m dreadspawn is rare is flipping eclipse of the sun. In months of superratting I haven't had a single one spawn on me.

CCP stop cheating me off my 260mil ticks and make 120m dreads spawn on me every 20minutes now!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2099 - 2017-06-13 10:19:15 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Axhind wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Axhind wrote:
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
[quote=baltec1]
Nope the statics will be much more evenly for all the reasons I listed. The average capital-ratter rats more per month . I expect FAR more than 6,2% of all nullsec-ano-ticks be generated by caps. FAR MORE.



Will be interesting how well/if they can detect multiboxing. Running several ishtars is easy as is running them in the background while working. Something that is not the case with capital ratting. I know that I stopped carrier ratting due to losing fighters if I look away for a sec, while worst that happens in an ishtar is that I get a bit lower tick.


oh its still possible to multibox 2-3 carriers/supers if you have the right rig.


Show us this multiboxing of carriers then (no input broadcasting obviously) and just how long can you keep it up manually.


Here you go. Granted its incursions but the same tactic will work for anoms
Mary Timeshift Jane
Doomheim
#2100 - 2017-06-13 10:22:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Here you go. Granted its incursions but the same tactic will work for anoms


What in the hell mate, he's not even using carriers, not even using fighters...

Do you even carrier rat, bro?????!?!?!?!?!