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[June] Fighter Damage Reduction

First post First post First post
Author
Analius Glover
Pulling The Plug
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#2061 - 2017-06-13 08:31:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Analius Glover
I'm still not satisfied with this changes because it has nothing to do with rebalancing but rather penalyzing. The best solution that was mentioned before would be introducing fatigue like timer/counter which will reduce bounty for hardcore grinders and still will let casual players earn their money and have fun. It could looks like that:

Daily:

<10 sites - 100% bounty
>10 sites <20 - 80% bounty
>20 sites - 60% bounty
.....
etc.

This will let you keep your beloved afk VNIs in good shape as well as smarbombing machariels and reduce carrier/super ISK faucet while maintaining their PvP abilities. Claiming that they are overpowerd is ridiculous so please stop.

This is short term solution tho. We expect adding new types anomalies dedicated for cerriers/supers
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2062 - 2017-06-13 08:40:33 UTC
Analius Glover wrote:
I'm still not satisfied with this changes because it has nothing to do with rebalancing but rather penalyzing. The best solution that was mentioned before would be introducing fatigue like timer/counter which will reduce bounty for hardcore grinders and still will let casual players earn their money and have fun. It could looks like that:

Daily:

<10 sites - 100% bounty
>10 sites <20 - 80% bounty
>20 sites - 60% bounty
.....
etc.

This will let you keep your beloved afk VNIs in good shape as well as smarbombing machariels and reduce carrier/super ISK faucet while maintaining their PvP abilities. Claiming that they are overpowerd is ridiculous so please stop.

This is short term solution tho. We expect adding new types anomalies dedicated for cerriers/supers


Again, this will **** over people who cannot play every day. Why should we punish everyone when its a fraction of the playerbase that are causing the problem?
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2063 - 2017-06-13 08:41:19 UTC
Analius Glover wrote:
I'm still not satisfied with this changes because it has nothing to do with rebalancing but rather penalyzing. The best solution that was mentioned before would be introducing fatigue like timer/counter which will reduce bounty for hardcore grinders and still will let casual players earn their money and have fun. It could looks like that:

Daily:

<10 sites - 100% bounty
>10 sites <20 - 80% bounty
>20 sites - 60% bounty
.....
etc.

This will let you keep your beloved afk VNIs in good shape as well as smarbombing machariels and reduce carrier/super ISK faucet while maintaining their PvP abilities. Claiming that they are overpowerd is ridiculous so please stop.

This is short term solution tho. We expect adding new types anomalies dedicated for cerriers/supers


yes, you are being penalised for wrecking the economy, so your daily does nothing but penalise single account users, basically if you run more than 3 accounts then this daily of yours does nothing

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Mary Timeshift Jane
Doomheim
#2064 - 2017-06-13 08:59:20 UTC
Analius Glover wrote:
which will reduce bounty for hardcore grinders and still will let casual players earn their money and have fun.


Good job. Catering to the weak by intentionally crippling the strong. No surprise there, only brainfreezed human can have mentality so sickening and of anti progression. Have yourself locked in an institute for mentally degenerated. Please, favor to humanity.
erg cz
ErgoDron
#2065 - 2017-06-13 09:02:01 UTC
Instead of making NPC agress drones 100 % if ship is not shooting a single salvo on NPC itselves, they reduce drone agron from 15% to 0. IMHO absolutely stupid decision. Problem are not fighter damage, problem is NPC AI, that allows use only fighters / drones and stay semi AFK.

Make NPC focus on your drones if ship is not firing itself and leave fighters as they are now ... grrr !!!
kortes272
G-Point
#2066 - 2017-06-13 09:06:43 UTC
what ?? after months of skill training for t2 fighters 20% nerf for fighters ?! its your decision to keep balance in the game economy ? !! Eve online is over for me !
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#2067 - 2017-06-13 09:07:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
Mark Marconi wrote:
Will admit it is crap like this why I avoid the forums.

CCP come out with data

The Data:
Let’s set the stage for the decision by taking sample of 5 days in June. During that timeframe 10.6 Trillion ISK was rewarded in bounties. Of that:

22.3% (2.3T) of the ISK was generated by 1.4% of characters earning bounties, using Supercarriers
24.2% (2.6T) of the ISK was generated by 4.8% of characters earning bounties, using Carriers
19.1% (2T) of the ISK was generated by 16.6% of characters earning bounties, using T1 Cruisers

Just under half (46.5%) of the bounties earned during the time period was generated by Supercarriers and Carriers, meaning a small percent of the population received a huge portion of the total bounties.

They come out with a solution.

Then Null cries and CCP folds.

And if you are not a member of the big blue donut, it shows just how much you matter to CCP.

Not at All.

Null will continue to grow huge fortunes in bounties, in an environment where even the targeting of fighters by NPCs is to much for the Null bears to take and everyone else dies by inflation.

As someone who likes Wormhole space and Hi-sec, I don't even feel like an after thought in this game any more.

You seem to be misunderstanding some of the backlash here. There are four issues at stake here: 1. Carrier/super capabilities in PvE. 2. Carrier/super abilities in PvP. 3. Announcing such a significant nerf with so little warning, especially when people don't feel 1 or 2 are justified. 4. A sense that CCP has stopped caring about players and started blindly swinging a nerf bat at anything that might reduce their revenue. You seem to be focused on the PvE part of the nerf which is the part that's most justified. Many of us protesting the change have no problem with fighters doing 20-30% less damage to rats. The problem is when the solution they propose includes such a drastic and unjustified change to the ships' capabilities against player ships and structures. If the problem is the money carrier pilots make, nerf the money they make but don't screw over everyone who trained the ship for something other than making money.

I'm strongly against a fighter nerf, even the reduced version, for PvP reasons, but I completely agree something needs to be done to change their moneymaking abilities. I'd personally go with turning bounties over a certain amount into CONCORD LP so there's a bit of supply and demand in the system as well as an ISK sink, but there have been many other alternatives proposed. What most of us agree on is that nerfing a ship's PvP abilities into the ground for PvE reasons is absurd.
Ian Hestia
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2068 - 2017-06-13 09:08:22 UTC
Commander Cain wrote:
102 pages with 20 posts per page. Let's round that to 2000 of your paying customers say this is a terrible idea. Why do you even post stuff like this. You don't listen to what your players want. CCP is always looking for a easy way out. Why do we have a CSM? If these changes are being approved by these people CSM elections need to be changed too. But that's a different day

It almost seems like you want to weed out older generations of your customers. Who are the most loyal. New players coming in on alpha accounts don't know how we are screwing over our players who over months, years and on yeah A DECADE. They are still dreaming a about capitals and making isk. It won't be until they spend hundreads of dollars and subscriptions and plex will they learn that everything they waited and paid for will be neutered.

Don't do this. Fix high sec. stop picking on the players who have devoted the most time and money to your business.


True!!!
Mary Timeshift Jane
Doomheim
#2069 - 2017-06-13 09:08:54 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Again, this will **** over people who cannot play every day. Why should we punish everyone when its a fraction of the playerbase that are causing the problem?


What's the problem? That a fraction of player base just as a fraction of humans in real life, have great dreams they want to achieve so they put in the work to achieve them?
Having and achieving dreams is a problem now? The world this is becoming...
Mary Timeshift Jane
Doomheim
#2070 - 2017-06-13 09:10:44 UTC
erg cz wrote:
Instead of making NPC agress drones 100 % if ship is not shooting a single salvo on NPC itselves, they reduce drone agron from 15% to 0. IMHO absolutely stupid decision. Problem are not fighter damage, problem is NPC AI, that allows use only fighters / drones and stay semi AFK.

Make NPC focus on your drones if ship is not firing itself and leave fighters as they are now ... grrr !!!


Solves nothing, autotargeting missiles can keep on firing, while you're still semi afk.
Valdr Auduin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2071 - 2017-06-13 09:11:20 UTC
Cismet wrote:
CCP Larrikin has produced the numbers that prompted the change. I would still like to see the raw data, but CCP have absolutely no reason to lie about those numbers. 46% of bounties to ~4% of players is a good reason to nerf the income stream of Carriers.

Issue #1: If I pop a rat in the course of mining, I just became a player earning bounty. For that data to be valid and not a lampshade, we need to see total breakdown of those numbers, especially number of rats per player with a sidebar for very low to insignificant ratting activity most likely produced by incidentals like mining, hauling, and scanning vessels (I don't know how significant ratting is to the scanning content, so correct me if it's actually a decent part of the macrogame).
Axhind
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#2072 - 2017-06-13 09:14:19 UTC
This still nerfs the fighters who are already nearly useless in high TiDi PvP. The guns barely ever cycle and you have to generally recall them after each volley. This just nerfs them even further making titans and dreads only capitals worth bringing to the field.

Could you please stop screwing over PvP? Scale the bounties since there is less effort to kill the rats and concord pays out less. That way you can control how much isk goes there while still making carrier/super ratting possible as it is the only actually engaging PvE in the game (a bit too much fighter aggro for anyone with RL though).

BTW. Your statistics don't handle multiboxing vs single char. Multiboxing carriers is impossible while you can fairly easy run quite a few drone boats.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#2073 - 2017-06-13 09:14:53 UTC
erg cz wrote:
Instead of making NPC agress drones 100 % if ship is not shooting a single salvo on NPC itselves, they reduce drone agron from 15% to 0. IMHO absolutely stupid decision. Problem are not fighter damage, problem is NPC AI, that allows use only fighters / drones and stay semi AFK.

Make NPC focus on your drones if ship is not firing itself and leave fighters as they are now ... grrr !!!

I dare you to try using fighters semi AFK. They're like guns, except when the target dies, in addition to doing no damage your guns also die if you don't pick a new target within a few seconds. The level of NPC fighter aggro is already absurd, yet it doesn't deter those who can keep their fighters moving and kill the most dangerous NPCs quickly. At this point I don't think there would be a noticeable difference if rats targeted fighters 100% of the time.
Jarmen4u
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2074 - 2017-06-13 09:15:34 UTC
Mary Timeshift Jane wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Again, this will **** over people who cannot play every day. Why should we punish everyone when its a fraction of the playerbase that are causing the problem?


What's the problem? That a fraction of player base just as a fraction of humans in real life, have great dreams they want to achieve so they put in the work to achieve them?
Having and achieving dreams is a problem now? The world this is becoming...

The problem is that this is too great a source of too much ISK. It will cause long-term issues if it's not dealt with. Also, what dreams are there to achieve once you're at a level that you can AFK rat in a super? There's not much upward mobility to go once you're a super pilot. Now, if they were nerfing the income for VNIs or other subcaps, that would certainly crush the dreams of those who are trying to achieve. But if you're in a super, you've already succeeded. At that point, it's not even work. The problem becomes, your money is making money for you, just like in real life. Rich get richer, etc etc. Not a good economical decision in game or in real life.
Valdr Auduin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2075 - 2017-06-13 09:24:17 UTC
Voice fromthe Abyss wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
[img]http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/newssystem/media/71813/1/GermanFlag33.png[/img]  [img]http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/devblog/FLAG_-_RUSSIAN-33.png[/img]

UPDATE 2017-06-12: Reduced the damage reduction to fighters. Added supporting data.

Greetings Capsuleers,
Coming tomorrow in the June 2017 release, the damage output of Fighters will see a reduction by the game design team. After a long weekend sifting through some passionate feedback and taking into consideration previously ongoing design work, let’s take a look at what’s coming.

The Data:
Let’s set the stage for the decision by taking sample of 5 days in June. During that timeframe 10.6 Trillion ISK was rewarded in bounties. Of that:
  • 22.3% (2.3T) of the ISK was generated by 1.4% of characters earning bounties, using Supercarriers
  • 24.2% (2.6T) of the ISK was generated by 4.8% of characters earning bounties, using Carriers
  • 19.1% (2T) of the ISK was generated by 16.6% of characters earning bounties, using T1 Cruisers
Just under half (46.5%) of the bounties earned during the time period was generated by Supercarriers and Carriers, meaning a small percent of the population received a huge portion of the total bounties.

Why:
Our primary goal for this change is reducing the combat power of Carriers & Supercarriersin PvE, specifically anomaly ratting in Nullsec. As you may have seen in the May Monthly Economy Report, there is a significant upward trend in the Money Supply. This is due to NPC Bounties.

[img]http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/MER/May_2017/9b_isk.float.3.jpg[/img]

This trend is unsustainable. Having such a large ISK faucet is bad for the economy, and this ISK faucet is concentrated to a relatively small number of players.
Our secondary goal is that Carriers and Supercarriers are too effective in PvP, even for the investment it takes to create them. This change will shift the PvP balance, but we’re confident that Carriers and Supercarriers will remain powerful options for PvP battles.

What:
  • Light Fighters (Space Superiority): No Change
  • Light Fighters (Attack): 10% reduction to Basic Attack and Heavy Rocket Salvo damage (was 20%)
  • Support Fighters: No Change
  • Heavy Fighters (Heavy Attack): No Change (was 10% reduction to Basic Attack and Torpedo Salvo damage)
  • Heavy Fighters (Long Range Attack): 20% reduction to Basic Attack damage (was 30%)
  • Heavy Fighters (Shadow): No Change
  • NPC Fighter Aggression: No Change (was +15%)
  • We are working on changes to Anomalies that will reduce the effectiveness of Carriers and Supercarriers. These changes will be announced at a later date.


We will continue to observe the economy after these changes and will make adjustments as necessary to keep it healthy for all our players. Some of you have asked 'Why not just reduce the bounties?'. The focus of this change is Supercarriers and Carriers. We don't want to effect the income of ships besides those with this change.


On review of the numbers above and in the graphs supplied it seems clear to me that this is an over reaction to a spike which if you review the charts has happened previously (see November - December 2016). If you take a long view the personal wealth in game has been steadily growing at a rate of around 20T every 2 years. Since March 2016 (just over a year ago) the growth has been 10-11T (even including this spike) or about half of the growth that occurred over the previous 2 two year periods mentioned above and this growth has not previously be viewed as bad or needing to be arrested.

So the big question is why the sudden need to arrest isk generation? Why are we not waiting to see if after a couple of months we have another decrease in wealth as occurred after December 2016?

These are the questions that the above announcement does not make clear.

The percentages of pilots generating the isk from my point of view lines up with what I would expect based on the investment cost of the ships being flown. I would expect that if 1.4% of the player base is generating 2T isk that it would take 3-4 times the number of carrier pilots to generate the same amount of isk and likewise it would take 3-4 times the number of cruiser pilots to generate the amount of isk a carrier pilot does. These proportions don't look wrong to me. As such I am left with the view that CCP don't want players that invest significantly more to be able to earn significantly more from ratting which really does not make much sense to me.

I know that the would be economists will likely howl me down saying that I just don't understand and that may be true but before you do that give me some answers to my above questions, explain why a blip that has not yet impacted on the 2-5 year average increase in wealth is a bad thing that needs a tune up right now before we see if it is a continuing trend? Typically economics is supposed to take a longer term view rather than reacting to short term dips or blips.

Given that the current long term personal wealth trend remains within average historical parameters I think this is a knee jerk reaction to a very short term trend that really should be allowed to play out for a little longer before CCP rush in to make a change.

This post just reinforces my disbelief on climate change alarmism.
Mary Timeshift Jane
Doomheim
#2076 - 2017-06-13 09:25:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Mary Timeshift Jane
Jarmen4u wrote:
Mary Timeshift Jane wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Again, this will **** over people who cannot play every day. Why should we punish everyone when its a fraction of the playerbase that are causing the problem?


What's the problem? That a fraction of player base just as a fraction of humans in real life, have great dreams they want to achieve so they put in the work to achieve them?
Having and achieving dreams is a problem now? The world this is becoming...

The problem is that this is too great a source of too much ISK. It will cause long-term issues if it's not dealt with. Also, what dreams are there to achieve once you're at a level that you can AFK rat in a super? There's not much upward mobility to go once you're a super pilot. Now, if they were nerfing the income for VNIs or other subcaps, that would certainly crush the dreams of those who are trying to achieve. But if you're in a super, you've already succeeded. At that point, it's not even work. The problem becomes, your money is making money for you, just like in real life. Rich get richer, etc etc. Not a good economical decision in game or in real life.


Wow, AFK RAT IN SUPER, wow. AttentionAttentionAttentionAttentionAttentionAttentionAttentionAttention

Dear Brave Newbie,
in much ignorance you still rest. I shall pray that your masters are able to help you lift it up and guide you out of the darkness and towards the light.
Much love,
Be blessed.
MTJ
Destriouth Hollow
Star-Destroying-Warlords
#2077 - 2017-06-13 09:25:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Destriouth Hollow
CCP Larrikin wrote:


The Data:
Let’s set the stage for the decision by taking sample of 5 days in June. During that timeframe 10.6 Trillion ISK was rewarded in bounties. Of that:
  • 22.3% (2.3T) of the ISK was generated by 1.4% of characters earning bounties, using Supercarriers
  • 24.2% (2.6T) of the ISK was generated by 4.8% of characters earning bounties, using Carriers
  • 19.1% (2T) of the ISK was generated by 16.6% of characters earning bounties, using T1 Cruisers
Just under half (46.5%) of the bounties earned during the time period was generated by Supercarriers and Carriers, meaning a small percent of the population received a huge portion of the total bounties.



"Don't trust statistics, you didn't forge yourself" (:

22,3% of the isk was earned by 1,4% of the players (supers)
46,5% of the isk was earned by 6,2% of the players (supers + carriers)

a) Your 100% even included highsec-miners that shoot an npc frig for a bounty of 5 isk every hour
b) These figures don't include that these ships were singleboxing, so it was most likely all the isk these chars earned.
c) These chars are likely the highest skilled characters of your 100%. Capitals are a ship of choice for long-time/highskill players.
d) It doesn't include HOW LONG these 6,2% ratted. Maybe they ratted 4 times as long as the average other player? Your statistics do include players that log in once a month, shoot a single npc frig and log off again.
e) In general this compares people that only get bounties on the side to anomaly ratters that exclusively get the bounties. People that earn bounties on the side are: miners, incursion runners, ded runners, hell even pvpers with gate-rats.
venetistrader norie
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2078 - 2017-06-13 09:26:05 UTC
GUYS, you know the multi-boxers and hardcore players will find ways to make combat sites fast... smart bombs... I guess we will all move to wh space until you nerf the sites there again :)
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#2079 - 2017-06-13 09:28:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
Jarmen4u wrote:
Also, what dreams are there to achieve once you're at a level that you can AFK rat in a super? There's not much upward mobility to go once you're a super pilot. Now, if they were nerfing the income for VNIs or other subcaps, that would certainly crush the dreams of those who are trying to achieve. But if you're in a super, you've already succeeded. At that point, it's not even work. The problem becomes, your money is making money for you, just like in real life. Rich get richer, etc etc. Not a good economical decision in game or in real life.

First of all, there is no level at which you can AFK rat in a super. The longest you can go AFK is about 10 seconds, and even then you might lose a fighter. It's the most demanding way to make money, where you need to keep up an average of 40+ actions per minute with no breaks except warping between sites.

As for what there is to do after getting a super, there's plenty of stuff. You can still work toward getting a titan or multiple, buying multiple relatively expensive ships for PvP, investing in the market or other more lucrative venture, etc. I can think of 1000x more things to do than what my ISK will allow, and as my killboard demonstrates, I own a super. Still, I don't use it for moneymaking because the ISK/effort ratio is already significantly lower than other forms of income and I don't treat Eve like a second job.
Valdr Auduin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2080 - 2017-06-13 09:30:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Valdr Auduin
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Commander Spurty wrote:
Why haven't you used your data to decide:

"We are placing a cap on CONCORD bounties per Region! If you wish to go over X ISK, you need to invade your neighbors"

Faster the super pilots deplete the ISK bucket for their region, the faster they have to uproot and move.

That path leadeth to thine themepark
Mechanically you have two options.
An arbitrary total ratting limit. Which means everyone who isn't a super gets nerfed too.
Or an arbitrary per pilot limit. Which forces multi-characters on the same account (to keep costs down) to bypass it, & makes no sense in a sandbox.
Neither are viable solutions.

What about Regional Threat Levels (or even as granular as Constellation Threat Levels)? The more you rat out in a given area the longer the respawn timers, the weaker the rats, and the smaller the bounties, the longer an instance of rats continue to exist the shorter the respawns, the tougher things that get spawned, and thus the bigger the bounty that is rewarded. It's like belt growth for rats.

ED: Sudden thought: you only get bounty in regions/constellations with a security rating of 0.1 or more, anything with Sovereignty on a region can set up a pool of fund to award bounty in that area.