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[June] Fighter Damage Reduction

First post First post First post
Author
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1921 - 2017-06-12 20:16:18 UTC
Well at least people are not looking at the data...

BTW you can download the daily numbers from the Devblog. The money supply numbers are in a csv file and everyone should be able to look at in Excel or Google Sheets.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#1922 - 2017-06-12 20:16:20 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Are you sure?
I ran incursions for a long time and made around the same isk PH (more if you include Concord LP) out of them as I do ratting in my super. For a lot less isk outlay, less competition for sites and way less risk..



What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Incursion payouts are tracked separately from bounty prizes, and the data was specifically about bounty prizes.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

act 757
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#1923 - 2017-06-12 20:18:30 UTC
Nerf super and carrier ratting ... +100 for this

nerf their DPs on subcaps for PVP plz


too many supers in game now... but not enough death of supers... need to change the sov mechanics and fatigue systems..



Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1924 - 2017-06-12 20:19:48 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Hogeron Amelan wrote:
you guys from CCP have to learn how to read graphs...

When you average the increase in ISK since the citadel upgrade, aka since carriers and supers can generate ISK the way they do now (May 2016 - June 2017), roughtly estimated 1085T-960T=125 T ISK in 13 months what equals 9,6T or lets say rougly 10T ISK/month since May 2016.

When you compare the months before, (Oct 2014- Apr. 2016) thats about 790-600T = 190T in 17 months, what equals about 11,2T per month so thats over 10% more than we have now. So in which mathematical universe you are living to say that 11,2 is less than 10 that the actual income situation is not tolerable when there was even more income generated per month before the carrier change?
Of cause when you see the smooth lines before the citadel patch and the edgy lines after it, you can see that people are struggeling with a constant method for income, meaning that the game content is rapidly shifting between making Isk and loosing it.

Would you please add a 30-day-playtime cost development graph to that one please? Maybe then you will find out why people are up to increase their income in short periods of time and you may think about it how to introduce game mechanics for a more stable economy.
Instead of fine-tuning with a precision tool you are ripping of vavles and soldering rips in the pipes of the material flow...


The average growth rate in the money supply up to Nov. 2016 is about 7 trillion. After that there is considerably more volatility. However, for May 2017 the money supply for just characters grew 53 trillion. That is a huge increase. Using the updated OP and the ratios there as a crude measure of that 53 trillion about 24-25 trillion came from carriers, about 10 trillion from T1 cruisers. And the rest from all other ships. And if there were 2,000 characters ratting in carriers and supers, that is over 12.3 billion on average per character for one month.
You my friend need to stop posting now - Using the updated OP is not even close to accurate.
So any numbers you magically pulled out of it are also inaccurate..

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1925 - 2017-06-12 20:22:01 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Hogeron Amelan wrote:
you guys from CCP have to learn how to read graphs...

When you average the increase in ISK since the citadel upgrade, aka since carriers and supers can generate ISK the way they do now (May 2016 - June 2017), roughtly estimated 1085T-960T=125 T ISK in 13 months what equals 9,6T or lets say rougly 10T ISK/month since May 2016.

When you compare the months before, (Oct 2014- Apr. 2016) thats about 790-600T = 190T in 17 months, what equals about 11,2T per month so thats over 10% more than we have now. So in which mathematical universe you are living to say that 11,2 is less than 10 that the actual income situation is not tolerable when there was even more income generated per month before the carrier change?
Of cause when you see the smooth lines before the citadel patch and the edgy lines after it, you can see that people are struggeling with a constant method for income, meaning that the game content is rapidly shifting between making Isk and loosing it.

Would you please add a 30-day-playtime cost development graph to that one please? Maybe then you will find out why people are up to increase their income in short periods of time and you may think about it how to introduce game mechanics for a more stable economy.
Instead of fine-tuning with a precision tool you are ripping of vavles and soldering rips in the pipes of the material flow...


The average growth rate in the money supply up to Nov. 2016 is about 7 trillion. After that there is considerably more volatility. However, for May 2017 the money supply for just characters grew 53 trillion. That is a huge increase. Using the updated OP and the ratios there as a crude measure of that 53 trillion about 24-25 trillion came from carriers, about 10 trillion from T1 cruisers. And the rest from all other ships. And if there were 2,000 characters ratting in carriers and supers, that is over 12.3 billion on average per character for one month.
You my friend need to stop posting now - Using the updated OP is not even close to accurate.
So any numbers you magically pulled out of it are also inaccurate..


How do you know it's not accurate? You are always mad when carriers get nerfed but that does not mean you can pretend the data is not accurate just because.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1926 - 2017-06-12 20:26:27 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Hogeron Amelan wrote:
you guys from CCP have to learn how to read graphs...

When you average the increase in ISK since the citadel upgrade, aka since carriers and supers can generate ISK the way they do now (May 2016 - June 2017), roughtly estimated 1085T-960T=125 T ISK in 13 months what equals 9,6T or lets say rougly 10T ISK/month since May 2016.

When you compare the months before, (Oct 2014- Apr. 2016) thats about 790-600T = 190T in 17 months, what equals about 11,2T per month so thats over 10% more than we have now. So in which mathematical universe you are living to say that 11,2 is less than 10 that the actual income situation is not tolerable when there was even more income generated per month before the carrier change?
Of cause when you see the smooth lines before the citadel patch and the edgy lines after it, you can see that people are struggeling with a constant method for income, meaning that the game content is rapidly shifting between making Isk and loosing it.

Would you please add a 30-day-playtime cost development graph to that one please? Maybe then you will find out why people are up to increase their income in short periods of time and you may think about it how to introduce game mechanics for a more stable economy.
Instead of fine-tuning with a precision tool you are ripping of vavles and soldering rips in the pipes of the material flow...


The average growth rate in the money supply up to Nov. 2016 is about 7 trillion. After that there is considerably more volatility. However, for May 2017 the money supply for just characters grew 53 trillion. That is a huge increase. Using the updated OP and the ratios there as a crude measure of that 53 trillion about 24-25 trillion came from carriers, about 10 trillion from T1 cruisers. And the rest from all other ships. And if there were 2,000 characters ratting in carriers and supers, that is over 12.3 billion on average per character for one month.
You my friend need to stop posting now - Using the updated OP is not even close to accurate.
So any numbers you magically pulled out of it are also inaccurate..


Yes, because they do not agree with your preconceived beliefs they must be wrong. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1927 - 2017-06-12 20:27:30 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Hogeron Amelan wrote:
you guys from CCP have to learn how to read graphs...

When you average the increase in ISK since the citadel upgrade, aka since carriers and supers can generate ISK the way they do now (May 2016 - June 2017), roughtly estimated 1085T-960T=125 T ISK in 13 months what equals 9,6T or lets say rougly 10T ISK/month since May 2016.

When you compare the months before, (Oct 2014- Apr. 2016) thats about 790-600T = 190T in 17 months, what equals about 11,2T per month so thats over 10% more than we have now. So in which mathematical universe you are living to say that 11,2 is less than 10 that the actual income situation is not tolerable when there was even more income generated per month before the carrier change?
Of cause when you see the smooth lines before the citadel patch and the edgy lines after it, you can see that people are struggeling with a constant method for income, meaning that the game content is rapidly shifting between making Isk and loosing it.

Would you please add a 30-day-playtime cost development graph to that one please? Maybe then you will find out why people are up to increase their income in short periods of time and you may think about it how to introduce game mechanics for a more stable economy.
Instead of fine-tuning with a precision tool you are ripping of vavles and soldering rips in the pipes of the material flow...


The average growth rate in the money supply up to Nov. 2016 is about 7 trillion. After that there is considerably more volatility. However, for May 2017 the money supply for just characters grew 53 trillion. That is a huge increase. Using the updated OP and the ratios there as a crude measure of that 53 trillion about 24-25 trillion came from carriers, about 10 trillion from T1 cruisers. And the rest from all other ships. And if there were 2,000 characters ratting in carriers and supers, that is over 12.3 billion on average per character for one month.
You my friend need to stop posting now - Using the updated OP is not even close to accurate.
So any numbers you magically pulled out of it are also inaccurate..


How do you know it's not accurate? You are always mad when carriers get nerfed but that does not mean you can pretend the data is not accurate just because.


And the implication is that all the data is wrong too. All of it. Every MER. And that everyone at CCP are drooling morons who can't write queries and do basic arithmetic.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Eric Lemmonte
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1928 - 2017-06-12 20:29:00 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Eric Lemmonte wrote:
Looking at some of those graphs they have on https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/monthly-economic-report-may-2017/ makes me wonder if they could fix this issue with tweaking manufacture numbers somehow. Both bounty and produced good prices have gone up in a very similar profile this last year.

It looks to me that people are ratting the best way they can to pay for these ever increasing costs to buy produced goods. You still have time to fix this. Don't be hasty and make such a drastic change without first thinking it over.

I see that online player counts have dwindled over the years and I can't help but think that CCP is getting anxious that they're starting to lose their cash cow. Right now we're down to the same number of online players as back in 2008. Please don't turn into another EA or Activision. Just make a quality game and you will keep a loyal player base. These wild changes you keep doing is making this a bumpy road for everyone


So...manufacturers should be screwed over because you are putting too much ISK into the economy with your carrier or super.

That is reasonable to you? Really? Lets screw over players who are not causing the problem and let those who are continue on making a mess.

And you do realize that the CPI has been essentially flat for like that last 6 months to a year, right? Oh, and that is likely an overstatement of inflation as CCP use, IIRC, a Laspreyes index which can have issues with being upwardly biased.



You're jumping to conclusions a little fast aren't you? They could easily change mineral requirements for ships, modules, and the like... That would mean more isk in the MINER pocket, probably the same or more for the manufacturer, and it would eat away isk from the bounty payouts.
Eric Lemmonte
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1929 - 2017-06-12 20:33:35 UTC
Petros K wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
[quote=Eric Lemmonte]
So...manufacturers should be screwed over because you are putting too much ISK into the economy with your carrier or super.




How much ISK do you estimate that a single decend carrier driver can generate every day ?


A T2 high and faction DDAs can get about 60 mISK ticks for a Nidhoggur or Thanatos. So upwards of 180 mISK per hour.
Darvo Thellere
Dystopian Dynasty
VINDICTIVE
#1930 - 2017-06-12 20:37:13 UTC
reading all those numbers it's a shame that CCP listend to all this whiny cry cry little carebear ladies "DO NOT TAKE OUR MONEY WE DID NOT DESERVE!"-shitposts.

CCP, pls nerf carriers and supers harder. make ships having worth again. currently it's just way too easy to get bling bling shiny ships. where is the thrill losing a ship everyone can easily afford?

those super rich space-0.0 ratters may cry a lot but who the heck cares. running around and nolifing sites 24/7 does not provide any better game experience except the few second you catch one of those carebears and kill his ship to collect his salty tears in local. but than he can just rightclick - buy all - undock new super. no satisfaction at all.

and before "mimimi you dont know how hard it is" shittalk starts -> i am one of those carrier ratters. it's boring af. too much money, idc. please nerf.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1931 - 2017-06-12 20:43:06 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Are you sure?
I ran incursions for a long time and made around the same isk PH (more if you include Concord LP) out of them as I do ratting in my super. For a lot less isk outlay, less competition for sites and way less risk..



What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Incursion payouts are tracked separately from bounty prizes, and the data was specifically about bounty prizes.

They may be tracked separately but are still paid as bounties.. And pay more PH than carrier ratting which makes Devs assertion that carriers need to be nerfed because they earn too much a straight out lie..
If incursions aren't included there is even more reason for Larrikin to show accurate and complete statistics for his 5 day period rather than an anomalous %.

Dishonesty as to motives has been a thing with CCP and this thread is a prime example of it.,.

Either way, this change is going to have detrimental affects right across the game - It not only affects ratters but every income stream associated with carriers and Supers in addition to market sales..
All my bling fits (most of my ships are either faction or deadspace fit) are being broken down to T2. Previews of potential new doctrines after the Pirate ship changes are T2 or at best a mix of faction and T2 (cheap and disposable). This will also impact markets as players can no longer afford those bling fits.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1932 - 2017-06-12 20:43:34 UTC
Darvo Thellere wrote:
reading all those numbers it's a shame that CCP listend to all this whiny cry cry little carebear ladies "DO NOT TAKE OUR MONEY WE DID NOT DESERVE!"-shitposts.

CCP, pls nerf carriers and supers harder. make ships having worth again. currently it's just way too easy to get bling bling shiny ships. where is the thrill losing a ship everyone can easily afford?

those super rich space-0.0 ratters may cry a lot but who the heck cares. running around and nolifing sites 24/7 does not provide any better game experience except the few second you catch one of those carebears and kill his ship to collect his salty tears in local. but than he can just rightclick - buy all - undock new super. no satisfaction at all.

and before "mimimi you dont know how hard it is" shittalk starts -> i am one of those carrier ratters. it's boring af. too much money, idc. please nerf.


With the escalation chance and loot drop chance nerf, some stuff will be "worth having" when the stockpile gets burned through. It will take time tho.
Marcel Garsk
#1933 - 2017-06-12 20:46:43 UTC
Dear CCP!

Please buff dread, commander and escalation spawns in anoms to compensate us.

Thanks!
Aphrodita Engelbreht
SkyHearth
#1934 - 2017-06-12 20:49:10 UTC
Marcel Garsk wrote:
Dear CCP!

Please buff dread, commander and escalation spawns in anoms to compensate us.

Thanks!




They will not do that they just nerfed them :)
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1935 - 2017-06-12 20:49:32 UTC
Marcel Garsk wrote:
Dear CCP!

Please buff dread, commander and escalation spawns in anoms to compensate us.

Thanks!


When the intend is to nerf, there is no need for compensation.
Jed Airtech
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1936 - 2017-06-12 20:49:40 UTC
sabastyian wrote:
[quote]
Currently in June;
1749 Vnis have been lost for 191.66b
270 Carriers have been lost for 683.73b
34 supers have been lost for nearly 1.1T
If you are going to focus on numbers why don't we focus on how many of each ship were lost during the activities as well as looking at fighter losses. If youre so focused on how high tier ships that take ages to train into ( or at the very least a lot of isk for injectors ) because they add to much money, why dont you adress how 19.1-20% of null-sec isk is made by characters that can be trained within 2 months.


It's because they are not focused on real facts. They believe something, so they went to their numbers to find some that said what they believe.
Natalia Alianovna Romanova
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1937 - 2017-06-12 20:53:48 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
[img]http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/newssystem/media/71813/1/GermanFlag33.png[/img]  [img]http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/devblog/FLAG_-_RUSSIAN-33.png[/img]

UPDATE 2017-06-12: Reduced the damage reduction to fighters. Added supporting data.

Greetings Capsuleers,
Coming tomorrow in the June 2017 release, the damage output of Fighters will see a reduction by the game design team. After a long weekend sifting through some passionate feedback and taking into consideration previously ongoing design work, let’s take a look at what’s coming.

The Data:
Let’s set the stage for the decision by taking sample of 5 days in June. During that timeframe 10.6 Trillion ISK was rewarded in bounties. Of that:
  • 22.3% (2.3T) of the ISK was generated by 1.4% of characters earning bounties, using Supercarriers
  • 24.2% (2.6T) of the ISK was generated by 4.8% of characters earning bounties, using Carriers
  • 19.1% (2T) of the ISK was generated by 16.6% of characters earning bounties, using T1 Cruisers
Just under half (46.5%) of the bounties earned during the time period was generated by Supercarriers and Carriers, meaning a small percent of the population received a huge portion of the total bounties.

Why:
Our primary goal for this change is reducing the combat power of Carriers & Supercarriersin PvE, specifically anomaly ratting in Nullsec. As you may have seen in the May Monthly Economy Report, there is a significant upward trend in the Money Supply. This is due to NPC Bounties.

[img]http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/MER/May_2017/9b_isk.float.3.jpg[/img]

This trend is unsustainable. Having such a large ISK faucet is bad for the economy, and this ISK faucet is concentrated to a relatively small number of players.
Our secondary goal is that Carriers and Supercarriers are too effective in PvP, even for the investment it takes to create them. This change will shift the PvP balance, but we’re confident that Carriers and Supercarriers will remain powerful options for PvP battles.

What:
  • Light Fighters (Space Superiority): No Change
  • Light Fighters (Attack): 10% reduction to Basic Attack and Heavy Rocket Salvo damage (was 20%)
  • Support Fighters: No Change
  • Heavy Fighters (Heavy Attack): No Change (was 10% reduction to Basic Attack and Torpedo Salvo damage)
  • Heavy Fighters (Long Range Attack): 20% reduction to Basic Attack damage (was 30%)
  • Heavy Fighters (Shadow): No Change
  • NPC Fighter Aggression: No Change (was +15%)
  • We are working on changes to Anomalies that will reduce the effectiveness of Carriers and Supercarriers. These changes will be announced at a later date.


We will continue to observe the economy after these changes and will make adjustments as necessary to keep it healthy for all our players. Some of you have asked 'Why not just reduce the bounties?'. The focus of this change is Supercarriers and Carriers. We don't want to effect the income of ships besides those with this change.


After 5 years playing EvE online and this is the recognition i get from CCP. Honestly i'm deeply disappointed.
xOmGx
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1938 - 2017-06-12 20:53:53 UTC
Create anomalies for Capital ships

with dreadnought spawns and titans

Lets say 5-6 Dreds and 1 titan on the field + 20-30 BS

WITH chance to drop capital class modules and Domination / Deadspace loot off Titan
Martehh
Starfury Holdings
#1939 - 2017-06-12 21:05:33 UTC
Look according to your graph there is over a quadrillion amount of isk in New eden. Now you have to ask yourself how is this nerf even going to matter on a macro scale, the answer is it is not. Content drives this game not isk, we are seeing anomalous figures because the content is stale. The content in this game is stale because the sov system does not encourage large entities to fight each other. The quality of small gang pvp is interdependent on large entities in this game going kinetic at each other. CCP you are building a house without a strong foundation it will collapse. Your number one priority is sov at this point, unless you want to take the game in a drastically different pubbie direction.
xOmGx
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1940 - 2017-06-12 21:16:34 UTC
Sov system does NOT encourage deploying and or use of capitalships

CCP need to go back to SOV blocade units and or POS warfire (POS warfire will boost need for POS and POS fuel and so)

Create / go back to NPC fuel blocks (yes yes abandon planetary stuff)

NPC _SELL_ stuff to players - ISK removed from the game

Player sell stuff to another player - ISK is relocated and NOT removed

TO remove ISK you have to make NPC relates ISK sinks NOT the relocation due to player to player trade