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[June] Fighter Damage Reduction

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Ian Hestia
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1841 - 2017-06-12 17:47:12 UTC
Jen Makanen wrote:
Re: The Update Monday 12th June.


I'm not going to pretend this cut back on the initial nerf pleases me at all, but I would personally advise you learn to listen to your playerbase a bit more, yes there is bias, but you must consider their opinions and logically come back with your own arguments, rather than the method used by CCP Quant and CCP Falcon by disregarding the concerns of players as "1% of the 1%" and "edgy memelord". Bad for PR, bad for respect and quite frankly, real **** social awareness.



CCP Quant and CCP Falcon these two just enraged the community with their carelessness about the game and subscripted players.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1842 - 2017-06-12 17:48:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Wrong place, sry.
O2 jayjay
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1843 - 2017-06-12 17:49:13 UTC
Good call devs. You do bring a good argument to the table. How about putting a spawn timer on Heavens? 20 mins sounds about right. that way nothing gets nerfed and the grind slows down. Also makes players move around and want to expand their space.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1844 - 2017-06-12 17:50:38 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:


UPDATE 2017-07-12: Reduced the damage reduction to fighters. Added supporting data.


The Data:
Let’s set the stage for the decision by taking sample of 5 days in June. During that timeframe 10.6 Trillion ISK was rewarded in bounties. Of that:
  • 22.3% (2.3T) of the ISK was generated by 1.4% of characters earning bounties, using Supercarriers
  • 24.2% (2.6T) of the ISK was generated by 4.8% of characters earning bounties, using Carriers
  • 19.1% (2T) of the ISK was generated by 16.6% of characters earning bounties, using T1 Cruisers
Just under half (46.5%) of the bounties earned during the time period was generated by Supercarriers and Carriers, meaning a small percent of the population received a huge portion of the total bounties.


When 6ish % of people engaged in bounty generating activity account for almost HALF of all bounties injecting isk into EVE's economy, it's time for the nerf hammer to fall.

Of course CCP caved and in the same post announced that they were pulling back on some of the nerfing. That's a mistake, it's just going to prolong the issue to the point where more drastic nerfing is going to be needed later. You rip a bandaid off, trying to peel it slowly and nicely just makes it worse.



:smug:

Lol

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Sassura
Sassy's Corporation
#1845 - 2017-06-12 17:50:51 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Sassura wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Original Post updated


You just explained that almost half the bounties in null sec are generated by only 6% of all ratting characters then you cut down on the balance pass you were about to make?

I think that's just prolonging the inevitable. You're going to have to fix this and it would have been better to do most of it up front IMO.



It does need to be fixed.

There are better ways though, ones which really address the problems.



The problem is fighter squadrons. This problem did not exist the day before CCP patched in Fighter Squadrons.

that shouldn't be changing anomalies when they know what the problem is. CCP did that before (with tracking titans and forsaken hubs, they added frigs to forsaken hubs, slowing down everyone, not just the titan ratters) and that shouldn't ever do that again.



I wish that it were that simple, but I don't believe it is. Fighters need work, a 3 day old character shouldn't be able to render a carrier useless. I'm not arguing there. A simple damage reduction simply doesn't fix the issues at hand.

Do you think so many people would be out there ratting in carrier and supers, making those bounty numbers so high if it wasn't for things like skill injectors, lack of force projection creating much safer space than intended and many other things? Lets not forget about how cheap and easy they are to get hold of now.

The bigger picture makes me think that nerfing fighter damage wouldn't be the fix that the game needs.
grigair
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1846 - 2017-06-12 17:54:42 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
grigair wrote:
Yes I do and it would be worth it. The goal is to remove isk from game thats is a solid way to do so. Nothing drains isk out of eve like Titans, Super Carriers,Carriers dying.


No, that moves ISK from one player to another, and removes minerals from the game.



Minerals need to leave the game. The carrier pilots want to not get their stuff nerfed well the backbone of this whole game is ore. Isk needs to change hands and if that means some of the trillions of isk that some of these people have needs to be redistributed to the poorer people of this game then so be it.
CCP is implementing these changes to hurt the big guy but in the end its hurting any new players joining. If a new person cantget into this game this many years in than the game has become stagnant. CCPisnt killing their game the old players are because they have become to comfortable sitting on the isk and not actually trying to large scale fight anymore. The pvp in this game just isnt what it was 2-3 years ago and nowhere what it was when bob was around.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1847 - 2017-06-12 17:56:00 UTC
Valdr Auduin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Side1Bu2Rnz9 wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
I know most people here are averse to looking at the data...but you can find it here.

The money supply grew rapidly last month. We saw some pretty wild swings recently with Alpha clones lining up with a surge in the money supply. A big drop when citadels were released (everyone and their Uncle Bob buying up blueprints). There is no similar explanation with the recent rise in the money supply.


A cold war caused by a TERRIBLE sov mechanics has a tendency to also cause an increase in the amount of money generation. Maybe you should try to find the problem and not do what CCP is doing by putting bandaids on a symptom...

You're also naive if you don't think people will just move back to "printing ISK" in semi-AFK drone boats instead of carriers. Carriers were never the most efficient ISK per effort in the game, but it allowed people to play on one account and make the same amount of ISK per hour as running 3-4 accounts using VNIs. Carriers were a click fest, but they were perfect for the person who maybe can't play 20 hours a day or run multiple accounts. The only thing CCP will do with this patch is nerf carrier's PVP ability and forced the customer base to adapt to multi-boxing 3-4 accounts using semi-afk drone boats instead...


You don't see the inherent contradiction in your post there do you? A carrier was good for a person who can't afford to pay for his sub, but he'll expand his accounts by 3 or 4...and find the money somewhere? Never mind that using VNIs are less efficient meaning he'll have to rate even longer for each of these accounts to PLEX them.

Yes, but VNI-ratting is sustainable over longer periods to the point, as demonstrated, of breaking the cost margin.


So let me get this straight....the guy who is having issues paying his sub is going to spend more time ratting (you can't totally AFK rat in a VNI no matter how much you guys lie about it) AND he is going to have more accounts.

Maybe he should...oh I don't know....go get a better job or something instead of spending more time in his mom's basement. Roll


"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
FeistyOne
Inevitable Outcome
E.C.H.O
#1848 - 2017-06-12 17:58:13 UTC
You should never have introduced Skill Injectors to the game

Too many Rorqual/Carrier/Super alts in the game now.

But Greed is good right?

Marcel Garsk
#1849 - 2017-06-12 18:00:52 UTC
Guys! What carrier ticks do you foresee tomorrow?
Random Freak
Doomheim
#1850 - 2017-06-12 18:01:14 UTC
What about a new kind of support fighter by ORE?

One for tractoring, one for salvaging. Gives carriers and supers a reason to stay in site, less bounty generated. Less isk in the system. More minerals via refining scrap, minerals go down in value, stuff is affordable on a item per isk basis. Inflation is a bit countered.

Just a random idea, just remembered that mtus exist, but I'd rather just clean up after myself over warping back and forth.
Sassura
Sassy's Corporation
#1851 - 2017-06-12 18:02:59 UTC
Teckos Pech

So let me get this straight....the guy who is having issues paying his sub is going to spend more time ratting (you can't totally AFK rat in a VNI no matter how much you guys lie about it) AND he is going to have more accounts.

Maybe he should...oh I don't know....go get a better job or something instead of spending more time in his mom's basement. [:roll: wrote:






When you have to resort to comments about peoples real life jobs and 'moms basement' comments it seems that you are out of reasonable and factual comments. Your posts read more like reddit posts.
There are people whose opinions I do not necessarily agree with that I enjoy interacting with, ingame and on the forums. Their posts give me fresh insight into other perspectives and widen my thinking. It's a pleasure to banter with them. They in turn, for the most part. can express themselves without falling back to insults. It's a shame that you Sir, are not one of those people. It would give your posts more credibility.
Nevase Prometeus
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1852 - 2017-06-12 18:03:06 UTC
Supercarrier is like endgame contents . It should be a reward for player who spend most of time and effort to that level . Nerf nedgame reward like this usually make unhappy for players who spend a lot ot time and efforts to go this far . Player who fly supercarrier most are veteran players who stay with EVE for a long time . Nerf their ship it look like punishments .They should not be thread like this.

My though are not punish the players but strengten to rats to make more difficult (espicially for carrier and super carrier) by all rats will target fighters first , all of them. After no fighters left so it should be Carrier or Suuper carrier to be next target.

I Hope this sould be better.
GothicNightmare
Bondage Goat Zombie
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#1853 - 2017-06-12 18:03:55 UTC
[quote=grigair]I Their is nothing making them want to fight each other for space. A better idea would be rotate sections of nullsec that pays better than others. Force the big alliance to fight for space to earn more profits.

I agree completely, after fozzie sov took over there was no need to ever use the carriers and supers to push people's faces in, now all you need is a couple ceptors to attack sov
They just keep making it so certain ships are more and more useless or less effective for things, need to bring back incentives and reasons to fly the ships they have.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1854 - 2017-06-12 18:05:03 UTC
Sassura wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Sassura wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Original Post updated


You just explained that almost half the bounties in null sec are generated by only 6% of all ratting characters then you cut down on the balance pass you were about to make?

I think that's just prolonging the inevitable. You're going to have to fix this and it would have been better to do most of it up front IMO.



It does need to be fixed.

There are better ways though, ones which really address the problems.



The problem is fighter squadrons. This problem did not exist the day before CCP patched in Fighter Squadrons.

that shouldn't be changing anomalies when they know what the problem is. CCP did that before (with tracking titans and forsaken hubs, they added frigs to forsaken hubs, slowing down everyone, not just the titan ratters) and that shouldn't ever do that again.



I wish that it were that simple, but I don't believe it is. Fighters need work, a 3 day old character shouldn't be able to render a carrier useless. I'm not arguing there. A simple damage reduction simply doesn't fix the issues at hand.

Do you think so many people would be out there ratting in carrier and supers, making those bounty numbers so high if it wasn't for things like skill injectors, lack of force projection creating much safer space than intended and many other things? Lets not forget about how cheap and easy they are to get hold of now.

The bigger picture makes me think that nerfing fighter damage wouldn't be the fix that the game needs.


I'm sure those ancillary issue matter, there were such issues with tracking titans too (no skill injectors of course, that would have been madness).

But EVE is an interconnected thing. CCP seems to understand that the best move is the direct one instead of trying to fix 40 things at once. Nom, fighters should not be so easy to jam, but that another issue for another day, the issue here is the money supply and a dps nerf will affect that no matter whatever else happens.

Trying to fix all those things might screw up other things (no offence to CCP, but that don't have a good track record there). Nerfing dps affects the tiny sliver of EVE online players that fly capitals, it's better to negatively affect a few than it is to do that to potentially many many more people.
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
#1855 - 2017-06-12 18:06:17 UTC
Less effective for carriers/supers simply translates to more frigates. Which I'm fine with, slows down the rate or which sites are cleared which was the whole goal of these changes to begin with.
Marcel Garsk
#1856 - 2017-06-12 18:11:42 UTC
You blame CCP for introduction of skill injectors. Without them there wouldn't be so many capital pilots. But now CCP nerfs skill injectors indirectly because 'injected' carrier pilots will do less damage. Normally trained pilots too but they are simply victims of power creep and present game industry realities (read micro-transactions). Maybe CCP did not considered enough long term consequences of skill injectors for EVE economy but take into account CCP thinks about their economy first!
Hogeron Amelan
Marquie-X.
#1857 - 2017-06-12 18:12:18 UTC
you guys from CCP have to learn how to read graphs...

When you average the increase in ISK since the citadel upgrade, aka since carriers and supers can generate ISK the way they do now (May 2016 - June 2017), roughtly estimated 1085T-960T=125 T ISK in 13 months what equals 9,6T or lets say rougly 10T ISK/month since May 2016.

When you compare the months before, (Oct 2014- Apr. 2016) thats about 790-600T = 190T in 17 months, what equals about 11,2T per month so thats over 10% more than we have now. So in which mathematical universe you are living to say that 11,2 is less than 10 that the actual income situation is not tolerable when there was even more income generated per month before the carrier change?
Of cause when you see the smooth lines before the citadel patch and the edgy lines after it, you can see that people are struggeling with a constant method for income, meaning that the game content is rapidly shifting between making Isk and loosing it.

Would you please add a 30-day-playtime cost development graph to that one please? Maybe then you will find out why people are up to increase their income in short periods of time and you may think about it how to introduce game mechanics for a more stable economy.
Instead of fine-tuning with a precision tool you are ripping of vavles and soldering rips in the pipes of the material flow...
Nick Bison
Bison Industrial Inc
#1858 - 2017-06-12 18:13:17 UTC
a lot of screaming and hollering because the 6.4% that carrier/super rat wont keep getting 43% of all ISK rewards.

Okay, I got that out ... sorry for any offense.

Overall, I was kind of hoping that CCP could have instituted some mechanic that prevented carrier/supers from entering PvE anoms but, that would make dealing with dread/titan spawns very interesting.

Guess we'll all have to see how this plays out.

Nothing clever at this time.
Sylvia Kildare
Kinetic Fury
#1859 - 2017-06-12 18:14:17 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
All PVE rewards were balanced against player and ship power in the ~2010 era.

Player ships have been 'rebalanced' multiple times since then. Almost all of these changes have been significant power increases. Level 5 missions and 10/10 sites used to be nontrivial fleet sites, now they are readily soloed.

The key to addressing this balance issue is to increase the combat capabilities of NPCs in line with the increases player ship power has experienced.


I'm pretty sure that's where they're headed with the new NPC AI eventually. First, the mining response fleets, then the Sotiyo defense fleet, now, the new Drone event with the new AI.

Eventually, all belts, all anoms, all combat sigs, all sleepers, drifters, incursion rats, L1+2+3+4+5 rats... all of it. Could be using some variant of the new AI to increase challenge and to reduce the identical nature of a lot of PVE content, to keep it a bit more randomized.
Sassura
Sassy's Corporation
#1860 - 2017-06-12 18:15:57 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


I'm sure those ancillary issue matter, there were such issues with tracking titans too (no skill injectors of course, that would have been madness).

But EVE is an interconnected thing. CCP seems to understand that the best move is the direct one instead of trying to fix 40 things at once. Nom, fighters should not be so easy to jam, but that another issue for another day, the issue here is the money supply and a dps nerf will affect that no matter whatever else happens.

Trying to fix all those things might screw up other things (no offence to CCP, but that don't have a good track record there). Nerfing dps affects the tiny sliver of EVE online players that fly capitals, it's better to negatively affect a few than it is to do that to potentially many many more people.


You are right that fixing all the issues is far more than a one patch fix and nerfing fighters is an easier way to get a fix into the game in a timely manner without implementing more issues. However the nerf was extremely heavy handed and frustrated people. The method of throwing it into another nerf with 4 days notice was also a poor decision. I'd like fighters as a whole to be addressed, because it is needed.


It's a shame that new features are not tested more ( didn't CCP think the max skilled 450 mil p/h rorqual was not that balanced) and introduced more gently. No one ever got upset about gentle buffs to rework things.