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[June] Fighter Damage Reduction

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Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#1821 - 2017-06-12 17:31:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Linus Gorp
Nexio Siete wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Justify Justify Justify


I ASSUME THAT YOU HAVE ACTUALLY COUNTED THE ALPHA CLONES THAT YOU PUT IN OUT IN THESE FIGURES?
BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE CLEARLY USING SATURATED FIGURES THAT YOU CREATED TO YOUR ENDS WHICH I KNOW CCP WOULD NEVER DO ...............RIGHT?

If they haven't (and I don't see any logical reason why they should..), then doing that would only result in the numbers favoring carriers and supers even more than they already do, justifying the nerfs harder than the numbers with alpha accounts would.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Illyria Mimikry
Literally The Worst Community
#1822 - 2017-06-12 17:31:58 UTC
When will you understand that the problem is not carrier and super are too effective in PVE but people are SAFE to do it, so they can do it TENTH of hours in a raw without beeing disturbed. It's curently more dangerous to run incursion in HS or to do lvl 4 mission in a slightly blingy ship than ratring in carrier/super in delve (same **** for every alliance farm system).

This is not how eve is supposed to work, please remember the risk vs reward concept.

Make it risky, you'll see a huge drop in both amount of player farming in carrier and super and efficiency as they'll have to put their ship in safe position more often.

Force people to move out of a blue-crowded crazy defense fleet to seek for isk / anomaly.

Force people to spread across New Eden to avoid having 80% of nullsec empty.

Maybe create a new mobule, maybe for the HIC, that cyno-jam the ship it's applied to.
Adare Darmazaf
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1823 - 2017-06-12 17:32:18 UTC
Sassura wrote:
Not sure why there is still a hefty nerf to the ship when they plan to also look at making the anoms less profitable for carriers and supers.


Also, can anyone tell me how much isk p/h I could make with a handful of smartbombing machs?


With 4 bombing machs and 1 to kill escapees, you run havens in 3 per minute. When you set up for higher warp speeds with the mach lets say from site to sit it is 4, meaning you can run 15 sites per hour. times what? 25 million isk per site? 325 million an hour (not counting escalations, faction spawns, dread spawns, loot and such, pure bounties)
Creecher Virpio
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1824 - 2017-06-12 17:32:22 UTC
HEY GUYS WE LISTENED!

WE ARE STILL NERFING, JUST A LITTLE LESS!

thanks for not listening to a ******* word anyone said.
grigair
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1825 - 2017-06-12 17:33:22 UTC
I rarely ever post about anything on this game. I have been back for 3 months now considering being around on and off since 06 I disagree with the direction ccp has went. People that have played for years or dumped a whole bunch of money into ccp's wallet shouldn't be punished to take isk out of the game. What the real problem is all the big alliances have become to comfortable with each other and let everyone have their own space. Their is nothing making them want to fight each other for space. A better idea would be rotate sections of nullsec that pays better than others. Force the big alliance to fight for space to earn more profits. Take out modules completely everyone on a even playing field and add bonuses certain nullsec space areas for a random amount of time and make people fight for that space. Get eve flowing again get those caps and titans into full scale warfare again insted of whats going on now where they are just used to blap someone jumping on a mining barge bait.
Balta Katei
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1826 - 2017-06-12 17:34:34 UTC
Idea: Have dynamic "difficulty" setting periodically make regional adjustments to bounty payouts. See Bitcoin difficulty adjustments. The more ratting takes place in a region the lower bounties get. The less ratting takes place in a region, the higher bounties build up.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1827 - 2017-06-12 17:35:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Original Post updated


You just explained that almost half the bounties in null sec are generated by only 6% of all ratting characters then you cut down on the balance pass you were about to make?

I think that's just prolonging the inevitable. You're going to have to fix this and it would have been better to do most of it up front IMO.
Sassura
Sassy's Corporation
#1828 - 2017-06-12 17:36:41 UTC
Adare Darmazaf wrote:
Sassura wrote:
Not sure why there is still a hefty nerf to the ship when they plan to also look at making the anoms less profitable for carriers and supers.


Also, can anyone tell me how much isk p/h I could make with a handful of smartbombing machs?


With 4 bombing machs and 1 to kill escapees, you run havens in 3 per minute. When you set up for higher warp speeds with the mach lets say from site to sit it is 4, meaning you can run 15 sites per hour. times what? 25 million isk per site? 325 million an hour (not counting escalations, faction spawns, dread spawns, loot and such, pure bounties)




Thank you.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1829 - 2017-06-12 17:37:22 UTC
grigair wrote:
I rarely ever post about anything on this game. I have been back for 3 months now considering being around on and off since 06 I disagree with the direction ccp has went. People that have played for years or dumped a whole bunch of money into ccp's wallet shouldn't be punished to take isk out of the game. What the real problem is all the big alliances have become to comfortable with each other and let everyone have their own space. Their is nothing making them want to fight each other for space. A better idea would be rotate sections of nullsec that pays better than others. Force the big alliance to fight for space to earn more profits. Take out modules completely everyone on a even playing field and add bonuses certain nullsec space areas for a random amount of time and make people fight for that space. Get eve flowing again get those caps and titans into full scale warfare again insted of whats going on now where they are just used to blap someone jumping on a mining barge bait.


Do you have any idea how large the temporary bonus would have to be for large alliance to deem it worthy to throw trillions of ISK in war material and infrastructure at it?
Sassura
Sassy's Corporation
#1830 - 2017-06-12 17:37:44 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Original Post updated


You just explained that almost half the bounties in null sec are generated by only 6% of all ratting characters then you cut down on the balance pass you were about to make?

I think that's just prolonging the inevitable. You're going to have to fix this and it would have been better to do most of it up front IMO.



It does need to be fixed.

There are better ways though, ones which really address the problems.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1831 - 2017-06-12 17:39:03 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Original Post updated


You just explained that almost half the bounties in null sec are generated by only 6% of all ratting characters then you cut down on the balance pass you were about to make?

I think that's just prolonging the inevitable. You're going to have to fix this and it would have been better to do most of it up front IMO.


Depends what the supposed change to the anomaly themselves are supposed to be but my hopes aren't all that high. If they reduce rat sig size for example, we are stuck with everything getting nerfed since guns and drones also use target sig for hit calculation.
grigair
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1832 - 2017-06-12 17:39:36 UTC
Yes I do and it would be worth it. The goal is to remove isk from game thats is a solid way to do so. Nothing drains isk out of eve like Titans, Super Carriers,Carriers dying.
HighRiser
Varion Galactic
Deus Vult.
#1833 - 2017-06-12 17:39:41 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
[img]http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/newssystem/media/71813/1/GermanFlag33.png[/img]  [img]http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/devblog/FLAG_-_RUSSIAN-33.png[/img]

UPDATE 2017-07-12: Reduced the damage reduction to fighters. Added supporting data.

Greetings Capsuleers,
Coming tomorrow in the June 2017 release, the damage output of Fighters will see a reduction by the game design team. After a long weekend sifting through some passionate feedback and taking into consideration previously ongoing design work, let’s take a look at what’s coming.

The Data:
Let’s set the stage for the decision by taking sample of 5 days in June. During that timeframe 10.6 Trillion ISK was rewarded in bounties. Of that:
  • 22.3% (2.3T) of the ISK was generated by 1.4% of characters earning bounties, using Supercarriers
  • 24.2% (2.6T) of the ISK was generated by 4.8% of characters earning bounties, using Carriers
  • 19.1% (2T) of the ISK was generated by 16.6% of characters earning bounties, using T1 Cruisers
Just under half (46.5%) of the bounties earned during the time period was generated by Supercarriers and Carriers, meaning a small percent of the population received a huge portion of the total bounties.

Why:
Our primary goal for this change is reducing the combat power of Carriers & Supercarriersin PvE, specifically anomaly ratting in Nullsec. As you may have seen in the May Monthly Economy Report, there is a significant upward trend in the Money Supply. This is due to NPC Bounties.

[img]http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/MER/May_2017/9b_isk.float.3.jpg[/img]

This trend is unsustainable. Having such a large ISK faucet is bad for the economy, and this ISK faucet is concentrated to a relatively small number of players.
Our secondary goal is that Carriers and Supercarriers are too effective in PvP, even for the investment it takes to create them. This change will shift the PvP balance, but we’re confident that Carriers and Supercarriers will remain powerful options for PvP battles.

What:
  • Light Fighters (Space Superiority): No Change
  • Light Fighters (Attack): 10% reduction to Basic Attack and Heavy Rocket Salvo damage (was 20%)
  • Support Fighters: No Change
  • Heavy Fighters (Heavy Attack): No Change (was 10% reduction to Basic Attack and Torpedo Salvo damage)
  • Heavy Fighters (Long Range Attack): 20% reduction to Basic Attack damage (was 30%)
  • Heavy Fighters (Shadow): No Change
  • NPC Fighter Aggression: No Change (was +15%)
  • We are working on changes to Anomalies that will reduce the effectiveness of Carriers and Supercarriers. These changes will be announced at a later date.


We will continue to observe the economy after these changes and will make adjustments as necessary to keep it healthy for all our players. Some of you have asked 'Why not just reduce the bounties?'. The focus of this change is Supercarriers and Carriers. We don't want to effect the income of ships besides those with this change.


Hey CCP Larrikin!

Just wanted to say that it is nice that when people do genuinely believe that the devs are mistaken, they will listen somewhat to our calls for a lighter touch. Though if I can put in my two cents...

Pvp:
To my understanding, (super)carrier's ability to frag small ships is the problem. So instead of nerfing all damage to all things, why not modify the tracking/weapon signature size/explosion velocity/explosion radius of fighter weapons? Make it so that hitting small ships like dictores or frigates sees significant damage nerfs?

This would maintain the damage balance of carrier v BS or other caps while the balancing against smaller ships.

PVE:
-Option 1: Do what you did above. Now carriers and supers will have very hard times hiring the frigates in spawns. Slow killls = less payout per tick.
-Option 2: Add a anti-fighter rat to sites or just have current rats shoot fighters more. Profitable, but still not without fighter losses. Or some sort of EWAR against fighters by npc frigates? Ecm/tracking disrupt?

There are many ways you can go with this to not adversely affecting the current carrier meta against hostile fleets.

If CCP ever does read these threads, it would be nice to see more finesse and less heavy handed changes.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1834 - 2017-06-12 17:40:29 UTC
PenguinBacon wrote:
I too can massage data to justify a false conclusion!

Per Quant's 2015 presentation
1.5% of the games population logged in and ran incursions

This group accounted for at the time 8.36T worth of income

Assuming linear growth of the player base based on the increase in incursion income
May 2017th Income is 9.92T.

This was a growth of 18.68% of income. The estimated population of incursion runners is 1.66%.

So Rounding up to 1.7% to be consistent with the chart made by Quant.
We have 1.7% of the games population accounting for 9.92T income.

To compare this with the numbers posted by Larrikin in the first post
22.3% (2.3T) of the ISK was generated by 1.4% of characters earning bounties, using Supercarriers
24.2% (2.6T) of the ISK was generated by 4.8% of characters earning bounties, using Carriers
19.1% (2T) of the ISK was generated by 16.6% of characters earning bounties, using T1 Cruisers

Incursion runners are about 21% more of a player base than SuperCarriers but result in 331% more income per character.


You do know Larrikin meanted "characters earning bounties", where as when Quant was talking about incursions he was talking about their percentage of the general population.

You'd need to know how many people were earning bounties (so you'd know what percentage of characters were involved in bounty generating activity) yo compare the two.

No one knows how unbalanced high sec incursions are more than me, but your attempt and analyses is off.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#1835 - 2017-06-12 17:41:34 UTC
grigair wrote:
Yes I do and it would be worth it. The goal is to remove isk from game thats is a solid way to do so. Nothing drains isk out of eve like Titans, Super Carriers,Carriers dying.


No, that moves ISK from one player to another, and removes minerals from the game.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1836 - 2017-06-12 17:43:36 UTC
Sassura wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Original Post updated


You just explained that almost half the bounties in null sec are generated by only 6% of all ratting characters then you cut down on the balance pass you were about to make?

I think that's just prolonging the inevitable. You're going to have to fix this and it would have been better to do most of it up front IMO.



It does need to be fixed.

There are better ways though, ones which really address the problems.



The problem is fighter squadrons. This problem did not exist the day before CCP patched in Fighter Squadrons.

that shouldn't be changing anomalies when they know what the problem is. CCP did that before (with tracking titans and forsaken hubs, they added frigs to forsaken hubs, slowing down everyone, not just the titan ratters) and that shouldn't ever do that again.
Sophos Mileghere
Ars Goetia Corporation
#1837 - 2017-06-12 17:46:21 UTC
This is ********. Because ISK faucet is created using capital ships to PVE, the solution is to broad brush nerf capitals... I just do not even begin to understand the logic in this.

Reduce frequency of PVE in null, buff null NPC's, make them fighter hungry to off put capital ratting - do something to nerf the ratting but not do not wreck the PVP game experience.

You are fixing symptoms, not root causes. You must think of the end to end systemic cause and effect. If you cannot hand on heart say you have that view then dont do the change
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#1838 - 2017-06-12 17:46:49 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Sassura wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Original Post updated


You just explained that almost half the bounties in null sec are generated by only 6% of all ratting characters then you cut down on the balance pass you were about to make?

I think that's just prolonging the inevitable. You're going to have to fix this and it would have been better to do most of it up front IMO.



It does need to be fixed.

There are better ways though, ones which really address the problems.



The problem is fighter squadrons. This problem did not exist the day before CCP patched in Fighter Squadrons.

that shouldn't be changing anomalies when they know what the problem is. CCP did that before (with tracking titans and forsaken hubs, they added frigs to forsaken hubs, slowing down everyone, not just the titan ratters) and that shouldn't ever do that again.


No, the full definition of the problem is, "Fighter squadrons in PvE" or, even more specifically, "Fighter squadrons in null ratting". Saying, "The problem is fighter squadrons," is a misstatement, as fighter squadrons have many other uses that aren't problematic.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Mrs Guderian
Rebels of Industry
#1839 - 2017-06-12 17:46:53 UTC
You kicked capital pilots out of WHs when you crushed C5 capital escalations. Those were actually fun because they were a group effort. Two or three capital players and all the subcap pilots could play together in blingy ships, share the ISK reward, and deal with the danger of a new sig opening while the dreads were in siege and maybe a carrier in triage. Now we are stuck in null sec, where ISK farming is a solo enterprise - no human interactions required. Carrier ratting alone is dull, annoying WORK. It is not gameplay. If the rats start attacking (and killing) my fighters more often, it will take longer and be more WORK. Speaking as a former wormholer, the whole tick mechanism sucks. It's not just me. The proof is in who isn't logging on and why. My former-WH corpies don't bother to log on except to update their PI or to say hello for five minutes before going to bed. They'd rather watch TV. I don't blame them. While I could easily PLEX my accounts, I never do. I don't mind paying for a service. But I have to say it's really getting tiresome. This newest nerf to fighters/increase in game time spent ratting really sucks.
Zockhandra
Canadian Bacon.
Honorable Third Party
#1840 - 2017-06-12 17:47:12 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Reserved



First off, i'm really sorry that you had to put up with all the cry babies moaning about their isk printers making less money. Kudos to a job well done on the initial changes and the current ones (this is why you my fav CCPBRO).

Though to be honest, this relates all the way back to Incarna here.....
The fighter change as a whole was too big too quick. Now that it's had time to breed with the Rorq mess, it has created one hell of a messy situation to deal with. So is it any wonder than people are complaining over changes that dumb-down their ability to pump out previously unheard of levels of profit?


I understand that these changes are a step in the correct direction, and that fighters still require alot of attention in order to bring them in line. But i think that in order to address this issue as a whole, you guys would be better off acknowledging the current state of balance and power build up (which currently has no release due to foz sov).

This trend is going to continue to build with ever increasing levels of isk and supers, accumulating in isolated areas of space. Eventually resulting in a content less saturation of super-carrier fleets. The issue with this eventuality, is that large super capital fleets like this are quite honestly, un-attractive to fight. This is mainly due to the length of time it takes to kill them, but also due to the risk averse nature of players.

No single change to fighters can rectify this situation, and a public discussion (o7 show) asking for player thoughts and acknowledging a tipped balance of power is highly recommended in order to sort this, without causing mass tears (upset) across the cluster.

Shield are red, Armor is too, i slapped my heavy neut, all over you. Fingers crossed, broken shattered and burned, across from the bubble and into your hull.