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[June] Fighter Damage Reduction

First post First post First post
Author
Joe Barbarian
Back Street Boys With Capital Toys
#1601 - 2017-06-12 05:32:40 UTC
Valaba wrote:
If you do this, at the same time how about nerfing permanent cloaky afk players who drop blops fleets on carriers that reside in your system all day. Take away their ability to stay cloaked for 10 hours straight without needing to be at their keyboard. I don't even rat anymore whenever the known hotdroppers are on which changes my Isk to 0/hr already with the carrier.

You guys are behind times of whats really going on in Eve. Your data is from too long ago and not current.


Hahahahahaha, so you just dock up when a cloaky camper is in your system?! how about you bait them out and escalate? This is the risk adverse entitled **** that makes cloaky camping so fun.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1602 - 2017-06-12 06:07:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
So I just looked and characters added a whopping 53 trillion ISK to their wallets in May 2017. To put this in perspective, for the entire year for the years 2014, 2015 and 2016, players added 61.3 trillion, 103.7 trillion, and 81.9 trillion ISK to their wallets respectively. In other words, May, by itself, add more ISK than half of the year 2015.

Let me repeat that, in one month, May 2017, as much ISK was added to character's wallets as was added for 6 months of 2015.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

lolzz Quekz
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1603 - 2017-06-12 06:10:21 UTC  |  Edited by: lolzz Quekz
Now imagine all those carriers training say 15 alts he can basically take over 1/2 or all the anoms in a system and afk rat.. hot dropper tackles one of his afktars.. 14 other afktars warp to him whats the trade out of that fight? Basically if he cant fight back that drop he can just warp out his non tackled afktars loss is still lower than a tackled carrier.
But still makes a ton of profit from that afk session balanced? Yea! Cos ccp wins the wallet war! And whos the one who loses? The players
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1604 - 2017-06-12 06:18:02 UTC
lolzz Quekz wrote:
Now imagine all those carriers training say 15 alts he can basically take over 1/2 or all the anoms in a system and afk rat.. hot dropper tackles one of his afktars.. 14 other afktars warp to him whats the trade out of that fight? Basically if he cant fight back that drop he can just warp out his non tackled afktars loss is still lower than a tackled carrier.
But still makes a ton of profit from that afk session balanced? Yea! Cos ccp wins the wallet war! And whos the one who loses? The players

And you know, almost none of them will do it, because it's a lot of work, and if they were going to do it they would have been doing it three years ago already. So yeah, not worried about a sudden spike in Ishtars or anything like that actually happening.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1605 - 2017-06-12 06:19:40 UTC
And on average, using the data from Feb. 2012 through Nov. 2016 about 7 trillion ISK is added each month to character's wallets. This is 757% increase in the average growth rate of the supply of ISK.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1606 - 2017-06-12 06:21:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
lolzz Quekz wrote:
Now imagine all those carriers training say 15 alts he can basically take over 1/2 or all the anoms in a system and afk rat.. hot dropper tackles one of his afktars.. 14 other afktars warp to him whats the trade out of that fight? Basically if he cant fight back that drop he can just warp out his non tackled afktars loss is still lower than a tackled carrier.
But still makes a ton of profit from that afk session balanced? Yea! Cos ccp wins the wallet war! And whos the one who loses? The players

And you know, almost none of them will do it, because it's a lot of work, and if they were going to do it they would have been doing it three years ago already. So yeah, not worried about a sudden spike in Ishtars or anything like that actually happening.


Not only that, but with his one carrier he was likely able to PLEX his account. With 16 accounts he'll have to actually open his wallet to fund those 16 accounts.

Yes, I will base my argument against this change on players having infinite RL wealth! Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

lolzz Quekz
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1607 - 2017-06-12 06:26:58 UTC  |  Edited by: lolzz Quekz
Teckos Pech wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
lolzz Quekz wrote:
Now imagine all those carriers training say 15 alts he can basically take over 1/2 or all the anoms in a system and afk rat.. hot dropper tackles one of his afktars.. 14 other afktars warp to him whats the trade out of that fight? Basically if he cant fight back that drop he can just warp out his non tackled afktars loss is still lower than a tackled carrier.
But still makes a ton of profit from that afk session balanced? Yea! Cos ccp wins the wallet war! And whos the one who loses? The players

And you know, almost none of them will do it, because it's a lot of work, and if they were going to do it they would have been doing it three years ago already. So yeah, not worried about a sudden spike in Ishtars or anything like that actually happening.


Not only that, but with his one carrier he was likely able to PLEX his account. With 16 accounts he'll have to actually open his wallet to fund those 16 accounts.

Yes, I will base my argument against this change on players having infinite wealth! Roll


which is the base of my point this whole nerf-ing is only benefitting CCP does it really benefit the economy? i doubt so its the same as how some miners run like 10 accounts is it hard work? it might be cause its a little more complicated than afktars who warp in orbit and drop drones but ccp think its alright since they plex that 10 accounts right?
but if you make that same amount in a single account.. no bro.. its not good for us we need more people plex-ing or subbing accounts

another question is that the report doesnt show the root cause of this increase in bounty payouts is it entirely due carrier ratters? or is there an influx of alphas running vexors? or maybe people starting to upgrade vnis into afktar or rattlesnakes? by just pointing that X player made an isk tick of xxx amount doesnt justify how carrier ratting is the root cause of the spike.
if ccp wants to justify that carriers are the root cause they should just release the entire report on the bounty payout divided into ships class which ships take how much percentage of the pie to shut everyone up
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1608 - 2017-06-12 06:28:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
And one more fun statistic....on May 7th, 2017 character's added 6,425,554,631,136.00 IS to their wallets. Or almost as much as an entire month (about 91%).

Yup, no problem there.

[/sarcasm]

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1609 - 2017-06-12 06:31:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
lolzz Quekz wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
lolzz Quekz wrote:
Now imagine all those carriers training say 15 alts he can basically take over 1/2 or all the anoms in a system and afk rat.. hot dropper tackles one of his afktars.. 14 other afktars warp to him whats the trade out of that fight? Basically if he cant fight back that drop he can just warp out his non tackled afktars loss is still lower than a tackled carrier.
But still makes a ton of profit from that afk session balanced? Yea! Cos ccp wins the wallet war! And whos the one who loses? The players

And you know, almost none of them will do it, because it's a lot of work, and if they were going to do it they would have been doing it three years ago already. So yeah, not worried about a sudden spike in Ishtars or anything like that actually happening.


Not only that, but with his one carrier he was likely able to PLEX his account. With 16 accounts he'll have to actually open his wallet to fund those 16 accounts.

Yes, I will base my argument against this change on players having infinite wealth! Roll


which is the base of my point this whole nerf-ing is only benefitting CCP does it really benefit the economy? i doubt so its the same as how some miners run like 10 accounts is it hard work? it might be cause its a little more complicated than afktars who warp in orbit and drop drones but ccp think its alright since they plex that 10 accounts right?
but if you make that same amount in a single account.. no bro.. its not good for us we need more people plex-ing or subbing accounts


Nobody is going to go from a PLEXed carrier to 16 accounts subbed with RL money.

If anything the rage here would indicate that CCP is going to come out on the losing end assuming the threats to quit are indeed real.

And to be clear, these people threatening to quit...if they are doing so because of their loss of ratting income, well they are short sighted fools who do not realize that if this kind of growth in ISK is sustained it will ruin the game for everyone.

Edit:

To be clear, a miner running 10 accounts and mining on all of them is not anywhere near as bad for the economy as this massive increase in the growth of ISK. The miner is actually adding "real" goods to the economy (real in the sense of an actual good in the economy--i.e. minerals). The addition of ISK on the other had is a nominal change. And when that nominal change is too large (or too small--i.e. negative) it can be bad for the economy. In the case of a large increase you can get inflation. In the case of a decrease you can get deflation. Both can be bad. Inflation reduces every player's purchasing power. If players try to "keep up" they'll just add to the problem--i.e. a positive feed back loop leading to inflation spiraling out of control.

When deflation occurs if it is large enough it will depress real economic activity. Why should I mine if the purchasing power of my ISK goes up 20% each month. I'll just spend as little ISK is possible and in 4 months I'll have "doubled" my purchasing power. And there are RL historical examples of this.

And yes, the in game economy works very much like a RL economy and it almost always conforms to what economic theory would suggest. When something becomes relatively more scarce; the price goes up. When unlimited industry slots in stations were implemented prices went down for many goods as would be expected. The in game economy is not special exemption from the laws of economics.

Maybe the solution CCP is going to implement is bad in that it does reduce the PvP capability of carriers and supers, and that will adversely effect players who do not use their carriers/supers for ratting. But somehow the use of carriers and supers to inject this much ISK into the game absolutely had to change. Anyone saying otherwise is a totally daft idiot who probably has somebody following them around reminding them to breath.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

lolzz Quekz
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1610 - 2017-06-12 06:43:01 UTC  |  Edited by: lolzz Quekz
teckos i think you misunderstood my point these top 1% wont sub with their RL money in any case they can as easily plex 15 accounts.
what i am saying is this:
if i sub my account but makes 200m/h eg. from ratting its not ok cos i can basically stop subbing and just run plex or basically 1 plex/mth so basically they potentially lost 1 sub account cause he can fund it entirely out from ratting ticks

compared to if i need to plex 15 accounts to make the same amount ccp makes 15x the money compared to that 1 account that runs 1 plex

these plex of cos comes from some other players who buy plex with RL cash to fund whatever they need or as start-up money so if there is a demand for more plex to sub accounts to multi-box ccp wins and people who have near infinite pocket would too

edit:
i agree on that point that miners are still injecting something into the market
but similarly it believe it was posted that some of the people basically mine the minerals make a JF or something insure it and blows it up himself indirectly creating isk too. so nothing is actually produced that is used by someone else or for a purpose other than making isk.
and you cant say that ratters did not contribute to the economy or produce market good either thats where officer and faction mods come from no?
yes bounty payout come outta thin air and it is causing an inflation but the root cause is not carriers or fighters so why nerf them? and will nerfing them stop the entirety of the issue? its kinda a delaying technique that has far more repercussion to the general populace and how much is it gonna benefit the economy exactly? yes the spike might drop by like 10T isk but is the inflation gonna stay? it sure as hell still would
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1611 - 2017-06-12 06:57:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
lolzz Quekz wrote:
teckos i think you misunderstood my point these top 1% wont sub with their RL money in any case they can as easily plex 15 accounts.
what i am saying is this:
if i sub my account but makes 200m/h eg. from ratting its not ok cos i can basically stop subbing and just run plex or basically 1 plex/mth so basically they potentially lost 1 sub account cause he can fund it entirely out from ratting ticks

compared to if i need to plex 15 accounts to make the same amount ccp makes 15x the money compared to that 1 account that runs 1 plex

these plex of cos comes from some other players who buy plex with RL cash to fund whatever they need or as start-up money so if there is a demand for more plex to sub accounts to multi-box ccp wins and people who have near infinite pocket would too


Still not going to happen all that much if at all. A player in a carrier or a super may be able to PLEX their account and have some left over after ratting for a number of hours. But ratting in an ishtar or VNI is going to take more time.

This type or argument ignores a basic economic concept known as opportunity cost. Devoting more time to ratting is not costless. Devoting more time to ratting with 15 accounts is going to come with even higher costs.

The problem here is that there is way, way, way too much ISK entering the economy. It absolutely has to stop. This maybe a boneheaded way to do it, but the problem is real and it has to be addressed, and no matter how one does address the problem the days of making alot of ISK with a carrier or super are done. And that is a good thing.

Edit: Anyone who mines, uses the minerals to build a JF and then self-destructs it...they are doing it horribly, horribly wrong. They are losing ISK On that venture. Yes, they maybe adding ISK to the in game economy, but the number of people doing this is minuscule or zero.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

idontknowy
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1612 - 2017-06-12 07:04:01 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
idontknowy wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
C0ATL wrote:


Where exactly do the graphs show >carriers< responsible for the ISK influx? While bounty is the highest index on the income graph, it needs to be stated that it has always been so. The extra influx is coming from Alpha clones being drafted into nullsec alliances and thought to AFK rat in drone cruisers. CCP claims to make a stand against passive isk income while doing little to nothing in terms of punishing bot users and solving AFK cruiser ratting. Funny how on the same release as carrier nerfs, the Vexor and Ishtar models are getting a re-work :))) ...

The fact that the dramatic spike in Bounties from about 40 Trillion isk to today's 70 Trillion isk can be traced back to the patch that buffed carriers. Given that Vexors & Ishtars have been around in their current form for significantly longer, and if it were profitable to the tune of 30 trillion isk to put more alts doing it, people would have done it with subbed alts, it's a reasonable assumption to guess that Alpha's in Vexors are not responsible for the sudden jump and that it is instead carriers.
Furthermore Quant is almost certainly capable of pulling more detailed metrics from the system like 'what ship was someone in when they got paid/killed a rat' and probably does know what he's talking about when he says that the spike is carriers.
Especially when the player accessible data supports that statement.

I.E. Stop trying to blame someone else and accept that it is carriers causing the massive spike.




CCP Quant is an amateur statistician using outlier numbers.


Those outliers are causing a problem. Just because a data point is an outlier does not make it false, or unimportant.


An outlier is an extreme example, not a regular occurrence, doesn't happen all the time. and should have never been thrown out as if it were a repeatable thing to net 780mil/hr. That he used such a number makes him look amateurish.
lolzz Quekz
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1613 - 2017-06-12 07:10:16 UTC  |  Edited by: lolzz Quekz
Teckos Pech wrote:
lolzz Quekz wrote:
teckos i think you misunderstood my point these top 1% wont sub with their RL money in any case they can as easily plex 15 accounts.
what i am saying is this:
if i sub my account but makes 200m/h eg. from ratting its not ok cos i can basically stop subbing and just run plex or basically 1 plex/mth so basically they potentially lost 1 sub account cause he can fund it entirely out from ratting ticks

compared to if i need to plex 15 accounts to make the same amount ccp makes 15x the money compared to that 1 account that runs 1 plex

these plex of cos comes from some other players who buy plex with RL cash to fund whatever they need or as start-up money so if there is a demand for more plex to sub accounts to multi-box ccp wins and people who have near infinite pocket would too


Still not going to happen all that much if at all. A player in a carrier or a super may be able to PLEX their account and have some left over after ratting for a number of hours. But ratting in an ishtar or VNI is going to take more time.

This type or argument ignores a basic economic concept known as opportunity cost. Devoting more time to ratting is not costless. Devoting more time to ratting with 15 accounts is going to come with even higher costs.

The problem here is that there is way, way, way too much ISK entering the economy. It absolutely has to stop. This maybe a boneheaded way to do it, but the problem is real and it has to be addressed, and no matter how one does address the problem the days of making alot of ISK with a carrier or super are done. And that is a good thing.

Edit: Anyone who mines, uses the minerals to build a JF and then self-destructs it...they are doing it horribly, horribly wrong. They are losing ISK On that venture. Yes, they maybe adding ISK to the in game economy, but the number of people doing this is minuscule or zero.


issue now is that nerfing fighter aint really gonna solve the inflation issue and its punishing people who invested time and money getting into them to be told their skills are proly not gonna be much use. or they can some stupid debuff or something in all anoms to reduce fighter's effectiveness against all npc entities so they at least retain their overall effectiveness in pvp

the only fix to the situation is basically like what they did with pirate BPC decrease drop rates across the entire board ores bounty drop rates, all module drop rates and raise scarcity of everything so every ship blow up in space reduces its availability until the inflation can be curbed when everyone has exhausted almost all their nigh infinite isk
Eric Lemmonte
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1614 - 2017-06-12 07:24:48 UTC
Looking at some of those graphs they have on https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/monthly-economic-report-may-2017/ makes me wonder if they could fix this issue with tweaking manufacture numbers somehow. Both bounty and produced good prices have gone up in a very similar profile this last year.

It looks to me that people are ratting the best way they can to pay for these ever increasing costs to buy produced goods. You still have time to fix this. Don't be hasty and make such a drastic change without first thinking it over.

I see that online player counts have dwindled over the years and I can't help but think that CCP is getting anxious that they're starting to lose their cash cow. Right now we're down to the same number of online players as back in 2008. Please don't turn into another EA or Activision. Just make a quality game and you will keep a loyal player base. These wild changes you keep doing is making this a bumpy road for everyone
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1615 - 2017-06-12 07:38:21 UTC
idontknowy wrote:


An outlier is an extreme example, not a regular occurrence, doesn't happen all the time. and should have never been thrown out as if it were a repeatable thing to net 780mil/hr. That he used such a number makes him look amateurish.


There is only one problem.

If you look at the monthly aggregate yes, May looks like an outlier. But when you look at the daily averages for ISK injected for each month May 2017 has a much higher average. Further, the standard deviation is lower than many other months. In fact, in graphing the daily ISK growth, what becomes quite obvious is that prior to 2017 there were days where the ISK growth was negative and days where it was positive. But in 2017 the number of days with negative ISK growth become both smaller in frequency and in magnitude. In fact, after April 20th the days of negative growth are negligible in both number and magnitude. So it is not just "one outlier" here.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1616 - 2017-06-12 07:41:21 UTC
Eric Lemmonte wrote:
Looking at some of those graphs they have on https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/monthly-economic-report-may-2017/ makes me wonder if they could fix this issue with tweaking manufacture numbers somehow. Both bounty and produced good prices have gone up in a very similar profile this last year.

It looks to me that people are ratting the best way they can to pay for these ever increasing costs to buy produced goods. You still have time to fix this. Don't be hasty and make such a drastic change without first thinking it over.

I see that online player counts have dwindled over the years and I can't help but think that CCP is getting anxious that they're starting to lose their cash cow. Right now we're down to the same number of online players as back in 2008. Please don't turn into another EA or Activision. Just make a quality game and you will keep a loyal player base. These wild changes you keep doing is making this a bumpy road for everyone


So...manufacturers should be screwed over because you are putting too much ISK into the economy with your carrier or super.

That is reasonable to you? Really? Lets screw over players who are not causing the problem and let those who are continue on making a mess.

And you do realize that the CPI has been essentially flat for like that last 6 months to a year, right? Oh, and that is likely an overstatement of inflation as CCP use, IIRC, a Laspreyes index which can have issues with being upwardly biased.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1617 - 2017-06-12 07:43:03 UTC
lolzz Quekz wrote:


issue now is that nerfing fighter aint really gonna solve the inflation issue and its punishing people who invested time and money getting into them to be told their skills are proly not gonna be much use. or they can some stupid debuff or something in all anoms to reduce fighter's effectiveness against all npc entities so they at least retain their overall effectiveness in pvp

the only fix to the situation is basically like what they did with pirate BPC decrease drop rates across the entire board ores bounty drop rates, all module drop rates and raise scarcity of everything so every ship blow up in space reduces its availability until the inflation can be curbed when everyone has exhausted almost all their nigh infinite isk


First off, there is no signs of major inflation....yet.

Second, yes, it will head off the possibility of high inflation because nobody is going to go the route you suggest. It just will not happen, that is just pure fantasy.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Yuri Sarain
Endgegner.
Pandemic Horde
#1618 - 2017-06-12 07:48:02 UTC
I see the sense of the changes due to ISK creating reasons, but I see a big problem when it comes to pvp. Thanks to low sensor strength the fighters are extremely easy to jam and due to larger signature radius also easy to kill. This makes carrier pretty much useless in pvp, as u can take them out with, for example, a singe griffin.


Conclusion: yes there needs to be less money created in pve with them, but nerfing them even more is a real problem in pvp.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1619 - 2017-06-12 07:52:47 UTC
Yuri Sarain wrote:
I see the sense of the changes due to ISK creating reasons, but I see a big problem when it comes to pvp. Thanks to low sensor strength the fighters are extremely easy to jam and due to larger signature radius also easy to kill. This makes carrier pretty much useless in pvp, as u can take them out with, for example, a singe griffin.


Conclusion: yes there needs to be less money created in pve with them, but nerfing them even more is a real problem in pvp.


Pretty much my view.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Petros K
C5 Flight
Fraternity.
#1620 - 2017-06-12 07:57:55 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
[quote=Eric Lemmonte]
So...manufacturers should be screwed over because you are putting too much ISK into the economy with your carrier or super.




How much ISK do you estimate that a single decend carrier driver can generate every day ?