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Reduced concord intervention on wormholes
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Lamajagarn McMyra
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2017-06-11 21:19:55 UTC
Currently camping a high sec wormhole is more or less risk free as long as the camper stays within jump range. My suggestion is hence either to completly remove concorde interference on grid with a wormhole (mainain restricted warp drive operation however). Alternativly, atleast allo ships to jump back into j-space after commiting a criminal action on the wormhole.

Impact to the normal high sec dweller would be minimal. on the bright side it would make wormhole logistics alot more dangerous and probably provide some pretty explosions. While some corps may argue totaly safe high sec camping is great content I think you'd find most wh dwellers besides "you know who" would rejoice.

Praise Bob! Twisted
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#2 - 2017-06-11 22:08:34 UTC
Bwahahahahaha. No.
You don't get to magically edit an area based on your ideal scenario. Just like high sec doesn't get to be 100% safe.
Yes Concord/Industrial ships interactions aren't ideal, and a longer concord timer combined with better fitting (including some self defence) on industrial ships would be much better for highsec, but a single place in highsec suddenly being different rules and allowing you to evade concord is just a joke.
Lamajagarn McMyra
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2017-06-11 22:41:08 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Bwahahahahaha. No.
You don't get to magically edit an area based on your ideal scenario. Just like high sec doesn't get to be 100% safe.
Yes Concord/Industrial ships interactions aren't ideal, and a longer concord timer combined with better fitting (including some self defence) on industrial ships would be much better for highsec, but a single place in highsec suddenly being different rules and allowing you to evade concord is just a joke.


I do agree with you that high sec should not be 100% safe atleast. What are you on about with the self defense industrial ship parts though, never seen a battle badger or a 100 dps 5000dps tank pvp occator? Also how is tha eve relevant for the issue at hand?

And for the laughing part, most of us would easily be able to handle varying rules just fine. Hell this game even used to pride itself on beeing complex. Perhaps some are a bit busy losing shitfit marauders to mission rats in highsec. ;)
Cade Windstalker
#4 - 2017-06-11 22:58:42 UTC
You should learn the aggression mechanics.

If you engage someone on the J-space side and they jump through they'll still have an engagement with you for another 5 minutes, during which time you can hunt them down and kill them.

If they're sitting on the High-Sec side then gank them, and besides otherwise they can't hurt you if you can't hurt them.
Lamajagarn McMyra
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2017-06-11 23:18:46 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
You should learn the aggression mechanics.

If you engage someone on the J-space side and they jump through they'll still have an engagement with you for another 5 minutes, during which time you can hunt them down and kill them.

If they're sitting on the High-Sec side then gank them, and besides otherwise they can't hurt you if you can't hurt them.


I wish you were correct acctualy but unfortenatly j-space aggression does not result in a personal engagement timer. Perhaps you are confusing j-space with lowsec? While ganking is of course possible it is not really viable against cruisers and up as you'd have to go reship to ganking ships to keep any sort of efficiency.
Marika Sunji
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2017-06-12 10:31:08 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
You should learn the aggression mechanics.

If you engage someone on the J-space side and they jump through they'll still have an engagement with you for another 5 minutes, during which time you can hunt them down and kill them.

If they're sitting on the High-Sec side then gank them, and besides otherwise they can't hurt you if you can't hurt them.

Lamajagarn is indeed correct - the CrimeWatch mechanism does not function in either wormholes or nullsec, which means that shooting people in those places does not incur the 5-minute limited engagement timer.
Henry Plantgenet
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2017-06-12 12:17:15 UTC
Marika Sunji wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
You should learn the aggression mechanics.

If you engage someone on the J-space side and they jump through they'll still have an engagement with you for another 5 minutes, during which time you can hunt them down and kill them.

If they're sitting on the High-Sec side then gank them, and besides otherwise they can't hurt you if you can't hurt them.

Lamajagarn is indeed correct - the CrimeWatch mechanism does not function in either wormholes or nullsec, which means that shooting people in those places does not incur the 5-minute limited engagement timer.


And even then it doesn't work like that.
For a limited engagement timer you need to shoot a red/yellow or they have to shoot back.
Shooting a solid white guy doesn't incur a limited engagement timer anywhere.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#8 - 2017-06-12 13:14:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
The caution first, I do not camp the high sec side of a worm hole entrance so I have little experience with this, so this is based on reading the original post.

If the aggression occurs in high sec then a much better option is to make the worm hole entrance behave like a jump gate and you cannot get back through until timers expire. No I do not care that it is a worm hole entrance, the aggression occurs in high sec all high sec rules should apply.
Lamajagarn McMyra
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2017-06-12 14:18:55 UTC
Henry Plantgenet wrote:
Marika Sunji wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
You should learn the aggression mechanics.

If you engage someone on the J-space side and they jump through they'll still have an engagement with you for another 5 minutes, during which time you can hunt them down and kill them.

If they're sitting on the High-Sec side then gank them, and besides otherwise they can't hurt you if you can't hurt them.

Lamajagarn is indeed correct - the CrimeWatch mechanism does not function in either wormholes or nullsec, which means that shooting people in those places does not incur the 5-minute limited engagement timer.


And even then it doesn't work like that.
For a limited engagement timer you need to shoot a red/yellow or they have to shoot back.
Shooting a solid white guy doesn't incur a limited engagement timer anywhere.


I did not consider the implications of criminal status, you got me there. Broadly speaking i'd argue that it is mostly irrelevant however, there's no way to obtain such on the wormhole side.

Perhaps a better option all through would be to have warp disruptors remove the abbility to jump through a wormhole much like hics against capital gate travel. It would add some risk to an otherwise completly safe activity without interfering with high sec rules. Probably it would also have an interesting effect on wormhole brawls, reducing motivation to hug the home hole.
Cade Windstalker
#10 - 2017-06-12 17:51:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Lamajagarn McMyra wrote:
I wish you were correct acctualy but unfortenatly j-space aggression does not result in a personal engagement timer. Perhaps you are confusing j-space with lowsec? While ganking is of course possible it is not really viable against cruisers and up as you'd have to go reship to ganking ships to keep any sort of efficiency.


Last I checked you get an aggression timer no matter where in space you engage someone since it's not tied to the sec status of the space you're in, but I'll see about double checking when I have some time.

That said, if this isn't the case, then isn't simply changing this a better solution that this convoluted mess you're proposing?

Henry Plantgenet wrote:
And even then it doesn't work like that.
For a limited engagement timer you need to shoot a red/yellow or they have to shoot back.
Shooting a solid white guy doesn't incur a limited engagement timer anywhere.


This, I know for a fact, is flatly incorrect. Any engagement between two players regardless of criminal status will generate a combat timer between those two players. This applies to duels, flashies, wars, FWarfare, ect. This sort of mechanic is often used by players in Low Sec or High Sec to aggress someone who is part of a group without significant threat of retaliation by staggering the global and the limited timers.

The only thing I'm remotely unsure about is how it works in Null/W-Space. What you're saying about it only applying to flashy characters if flatly incorrect.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#11 - 2017-06-12 21:53:54 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Lamajagarn McMyra wrote:
I wish you were correct acctualy but unfortenatly j-space aggression does not result in a personal engagement timer. Perhaps you are confusing j-space with lowsec? While ganking is of course possible it is not really viable against cruisers and up as you'd have to go reship to ganking ships to keep any sort of efficiency.


Last I checked you get an aggression timer no matter where in space you engage someone since it's not tied to the sec status of the space you're in, but I'll see about double checking when I have some time.

That said, if this isn't the case, then isn't simply changing this a better solution that this convoluted mess you're proposing?

Henry Plantgenet wrote:
And even then it doesn't work like that.
For a limited engagement timer you need to shoot a red/yellow or they have to shoot back.
Shooting a solid white guy doesn't incur a limited engagement timer anywhere.


This, I know for a fact, is flatly incorrect. Any engagement between two players regardless of criminal status will generate a combat timer between those two players. This applies to duels, flashies, wars, FWarfare, ect. This sort of mechanic is often used by players in Low Sec or High Sec to aggress someone who is part of a group without significant threat of retaliation by staggering the global and the limited timers.

The only thing I'm remotely unsure about is how it works in Null/W-Space. What you're saying about it only applying to flashy characters if flatly incorrect.

Sorry Cade. You are wrong.

Go test it. Everything you have written there is incorrect.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#12 - 2017-06-12 22:59:01 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

Last I checked you get an aggression timer no matter where in space you engage someone since it's not tied to the sec status of the space you're in, but I'll see about double checking when I have some time.

That said, if this isn't the case, then isn't simply changing this a better solution that this convoluted mess you're proposing?

You are mixing up the PvP log off timer with the LE timer.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#13 - 2017-06-13 10:41:01 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Lamajagarn McMyra wrote:
I wish you were correct acctualy but unfortenatly j-space aggression does not result in a personal engagement timer. Perhaps you are confusing j-space with lowsec? While ganking is of course possible it is not really viable against cruisers and up as you'd have to go reship to ganking ships to keep any sort of efficiency.


Last I checked you get an aggression timer no matter where in space you engage someone since it's not tied to the sec status of the space you're in, but I'll see about double checking when I have some time.

That said, if this isn't the case, then isn't simply changing this a better solution that this convoluted mess you're proposing?

Henry Plantgenet wrote:
And even then it doesn't work like that.
For a limited engagement timer you need to shoot a red/yellow or they have to shoot back.
Shooting a solid white guy doesn't incur a limited engagement timer anywhere.


This, I know for a fact, is flatly incorrect. Any engagement between two players regardless of criminal status will generate a combat timer between those two players. This applies to duels, flashies, wars, FWarfare, ect. This sort of mechanic is often used by players in Low Sec or High Sec to aggress someone who is part of a group without significant threat of retaliation by staggering the global and the limited timers.

The only thing I'm remotely unsure about is how it works in Null/W-Space. What you're saying about it only applying to flashy characters if flatly incorrect.


Cade if someone attempts a gank in highsec they go flashy red, or shooting your MTU they go flashy yellow.
Firing back on said target starts the 5 minute LE timer....

So basically to get it going both parties have to fire on each other to start the LE timer, outside of a duel.
Marika Sunji
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2017-06-13 11:40:43 UTC
Henry Plantgenet wrote:
Marika Sunji wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
You should learn the aggression mechanics.

If you engage someone on the J-space side and they jump through they'll still have an engagement with you for another 5 minutes, during which time you can hunt them down and kill them.

If they're sitting on the High-Sec side then gank them, and besides otherwise they can't hurt you if you can't hurt them.

Lamajagarn is indeed correct - the CrimeWatch mechanism does not function in either wormholes or nullsec, which means that shooting people in those places does not incur the 5-minute limited engagement timer.


And even then it doesn't work like that.
For a limited engagement timer you need to shoot a red/yellow or they have to shoot back.
Shooting a solid white guy doesn't incur a limited engagement timer anywhere.

Except it does work like that - try it. Go to lowsec, shoot a guy within gate gun aggro, warp off, warp back in, shoot him again, no gun aggro because you have limited engagement. And the target shooting back has nothing to do with it.
Jikai
Doomheim
#15 - 2017-06-13 13:50:10 UTC
Marika Sunji wrote:
And the target shooting back has nothing to do with it.


Sure they do: they were in lowsec.
mkint
#16 - 2017-06-13 14:36:04 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Lamajagarn McMyra wrote:
I wish you were correct acctualy but unfortenatly j-space aggression does not result in a personal engagement timer. Perhaps you are confusing j-space with lowsec? While ganking is of course possible it is not really viable against cruisers and up as you'd have to go reship to ganking ships to keep any sort of efficiency.


Last I checked you get an aggression timer no matter where in space you engage someone since it's not tied to the sec status of the space you're in, but I'll see about double checking when I have some time.

That said, if this isn't the case, then isn't simply changing this a better solution that this convoluted mess you're proposing?

Henry Plantgenet wrote:
And even then it doesn't work like that.
For a limited engagement timer you need to shoot a red/yellow or they have to shoot back.
Shooting a solid white guy doesn't incur a limited engagement timer anywhere.


This, I know for a fact, is flatly incorrect. Any engagement between two players regardless of criminal status will generate a combat timer between those two players. This applies to duels, flashies, wars, FWarfare, ect. This sort of mechanic is often used by players in Low Sec or High Sec to aggress someone who is part of a group without significant threat of retaliation by staggering the global and the limited timers.

The only thing I'm remotely unsure about is how it works in Null/W-Space. What you're saying about it only applying to flashy characters if flatly incorrect.

It sounds like maybe you're thinking of the old crimewatch. It's been a while since I've messed with crimewatch stuff myself, but I'm pretty sure you can't force any kind of flag on someone else. LE timers come from mutual aggression. Weapons timers come from using aggressive modules. Criminal and suspect flags come from doing related stuff. Otherwise you've got the log off timers but that's got nothing to do with target legality. It would make sense to be able to generate LE flags in null, but I would imagine that being disabled due to performance issues.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Rhaegon Aesir
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2017-06-14 07:34:42 UTC
I'll just leave this here.

Limited Engagements
Quote:

Engagements are created on attacks towards other pilots that are under a suspect or criminal flag to allow them to defend themselves, but can also be gained from accepting a Duel Request.


I.E, if you shoot someone with no timers in lowsec, you will go suspect but no limited engagement timer is produced. If they return fire, that is an attack against someone with a suspect timer, and therefore a limited engagement is produced.

Suspect Timers
Quote:
The Suspect Timer is only applicable in Empire-owned space (0.1 to 1.0).

So, if suspect and criminal timers do not exist in null a w-space, and limited engagement timers can only be created by attacking someone with one of those timers, then logically, it is impossible to get a limited engagement timer in these areas.(aside from duels of course)

Does that clear things up for you people?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#18 - 2017-06-14 07:51:36 UTC
Marika Sunji wrote:

Except it does work like that - try it. Go to lowsec, shoot a guy within gate gun aggro, warp off, warp back in, shoot him again, no gun aggro because you have limited engagement. And the target shooting back has nothing to do with it.

No, no gate gun agro because gate gun agro only happens on the act of you 'going' suspect. not 'being' suspect. And once you are already suspect you can't go suspect. I.E. it's some of the worst AI coding I've ever seen in terms of logic trees. Hence why it can be abused by the warp out and back in.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#19 - 2017-06-16 13:17:08 UTC
Wouldn't it be easier to simply apply LE to any mutual combat? This would help maintain consistency within the system and have little to no negative effect on the rest of the game

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lamajagarn McMyra
State War Academy
Caldari State
#20 - 2017-06-16 17:01:22 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Wouldn't it be easier to simply apply LE to any mutual combat? This would help maintain consistency within the system and have little to no negative effect on the rest of the game


I would agree, except for the mutual part. Bob demands high probability of death from all who enter his shrines! Roll