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New Mining Mechanic
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Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2017-06-08 01:39:05 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Dior Ambraelle wrote:

There is no shortage because you can mine AFK on ten accounts simultaneously.

And this is how we can tell you don't multibox mine.
Because anyone mining on 10 accounts is most certainly not AFK.

That's actually true, I'm glad I can run one client on decent settings currently.
Though I wouldn't call active gameplay where all you need to jetcan the ore once in every 15-20 minutes depending on the ships and boosts, even if you do it on 10 accounts.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#22 - 2017-06-08 05:39:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Shallanna Yassavi
Rawketsled wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


Going to make the same point I made in the other mining improvement thread:

Perhaps the boring low attention requirement of mining is a feature not a bug. Get in your procurer/skiff, find a nice belt, turn on the tank, lock up some rocks. take a sip of your preferred alcoholic beverage, activate your lasers, activate Netflix, periodically dump cargo hold into your alt's hauler.

This suggestion is going to just result in a new boring form of game play where you CAN'T watch Netflix (Amazon Prime, a DVD, etc.).


While you might be right about the current design and CCP's intention, I can't really figure why a designer would make a core part of the economy such a boring endeavor. It's literally required that at least part of the player base deal with that game play as the whole economy would grind to a halt if nobody did. You should not design such core game feature to be boring on purpose IMO...

The process of mining hasn't changed since Eve's beta days.

It's unironically more legacy than POS code. But when you stop and think about it, it's a very low computational system. The servers only ever need to think and update the game when a mining laser ends a cycle (or is turned off manualy). In the mean time, it can use processor time for anything else. Ratting is probably more taxing on the servers than mining is.

This is so true, you can literally start a mining cycle and go out of range of your mining lasers (i.e. to chase a wreck). If you get back in range before the cycle finishes, the game doesn't notice.

Edit: And you keep your target lock on the rock in question. This might be a problem if you try this with a Venture.

A signature :o
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#23 - 2017-06-08 14:47:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
But let me ask a tricky question: why do you play a game if you don't want to actually play the game?

Who defines what "playing" the game actually is?
When you sit for hours on a gate camp, or spend hours aimlessly wondering through empty space in hopes of finding a fight are you really "playing" the game any more or less than that AFK miner?
And what about that solo worm hole dweller that spends an hour shooting at sleepers, are they really "playing" the game any more or less than that AFK miner?
In the end this is a game, in some form or another we all pay for the time we spend in it and we are the ONLY ONES that get to determine if we are playing it properly or not.

Dior Ambraelle wrote:
Though I wouldn't call active gameplay where all you need to jetcan the ore once in every 15-20 minutes depending on the ships and boosts, even if you do it on 10 accounts.

Yet another of those players that think they know what an activity involves even though they have never done it. So let me give you a clue, not that you care but what the hell.

All of this is based on my personal experiences and the numbers from PYFA.
I do not use implants in my mining characters because I am cheap and they routinely get podded so why bother.
None of my ship fits are maxed, the small increases gained do not justify the additional costs when they are blown up at least not to me.
So with that out of the way here goes.

A typical large scale (well for me as a solo player anyway) mining op is 3 Hulks, 1 ORCA and 2 hauler pilots usually in DST's. Depending on the activity in the area over the last few days you can throw in 1 or 2 more characters that serve as scouts and to web the DST into warp.
One more thing I never use jet cans it is to much hassle but since you mention them specifically I will include them here.

At roughly 32 m3 per second mining rate a hulk fills it's ore bay every 4 minutes, that's 8,500 m3.
With 3 Hulks that's one ship every 1.33 minutes that needs to be emptied into the jet can.
Once every 4.3 minutes I have to empty the jet can into the ORCA.
Every 10 to 11 minutes I have to empty the ORCA (that's 70,000 m3 just so we are accurate) into a ship flown by one of the hauler pilots.
While all of this is going on I have to fly the haulers, d-scan the mining area and the area around the hauler that is moving and in most cases run the scout ships to check something out and to web the haulers into warp.
And yet with all of this activity you seem to think that I have long periods (15 - 20 minutes) where I am AFK and not playing the game. So typically arrogant and uninformed.

Are there those that can sit AFK for long periods while mining? sure there are those solo pilots with lower skills a low yield high tank fit and no boosts in a Mackinaw that MAY be able to achieve your mythical 15 - 20 minutes of AFK time. For the rest of the miners out there somewhere around 8 to 10 minutes is about the most AFK time they will have and still maintain any real efficiency in their mining.
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2017-06-08 16:23:55 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
But let me ask a tricky question: why do you play a game if you don't want to actually play the game?

Who defines what "playing" the game actually is?
When you sit for hours on a gate camp, or spend hours aimlessly wondering through empty space in hopes of finding a fight are you really "playing" the game any more or less than that AFK miner?
And what about that solo worm hole dweller that spends an hour shooting at sleepers, are they really "playing" the game any more or less than that AFK miner?
In the end this is a game, in some form or another we all pay for the time we spend in it and we are the ONLY ONES that get to determine if we are playing it properly or not.

Dior Ambraelle wrote:
Though I wouldn't call active gameplay where all you need to jetcan the ore once in every 15-20 minutes depending on the ships and boosts, even if you do it on 10 accounts.

Yet another of those players that think they know what an activity involves even though they have never done it. So let me give you a clue, not that you care but what the hell.

All of this is based on my personal experiences and the numbers from PYFA.
I do not use implants in my mining characters because I am cheap and they routinely get podded so why bother.
None of my ship fits are maxed, the small increases gained do not justify the additional costs when they are blown up at least not to me.
So with that out of the way here goes.

A typical large scale (well for me as a solo player anyway) mining op is 3 Hulks, 1 ORCA and 2 hauler pilots usually in DST's. Depending on the activity in the area over the last few days you can throw in 1 or 2 more characters that serve as scouts and to web the DST into warp.
One more thing I never use jet cans it is to much hassle but since you mention them specifically I will include them here.

At roughly 32 m3 per second mining rate a hulk fills it's ore bay every 4 minutes, that's 8,500 m3.
With 3 Hulks that's one ship every 1.33 minutes that needs to be emptied into the jet can.
Once every 4.3 minutes I have to empty the jet can into the ORCA.
Every 10 to 11 minutes I have to empty the ORCA (that's 70,000 m3 just so we are accurate) into a ship flown by one of the hauler pilots.
While all of this is going on I have to fly the haulers, d-scan the mining area and the area around the hauler that is moving and in most cases run the scout ships to check something out and to web the haulers into warp.
And yet with all of this activity you seem to think that I have long periods (15 - 20 minutes) where I am AFK and not playing the game. So typically arrogant and uninformed.

Are there those that can sit AFK for long periods while mining? sure there are those solo pilots with lower skills a low yield high tank fit and no boosts in a Mackinaw that MAY be able to achieve your mythical 15 - 20 minutes of AFK time. For the rest of the miners out there somewhere around 8 to 10 minutes is about the most AFK time they will have and still maintain any real efficiency in their mining.

I was in really scaredy cat mining fleets then, when everyone and their alts were using procurers and skiffs, those need time to get full.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#25 - 2017-06-08 23:22:11 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
But let me ask a tricky question: why do you play a game if you don't want to actually play the game?

Who defines what "playing" the game actually is?
When you sit for hours on a gate camp, or spend hours aimlessly wondering through empty space in hopes of finding a fight are you really "playing" the game any more or less than that AFK miner?
And what about that solo worm hole dweller that spends an hour shooting at sleepers, are they really "playing" the game any more or less than that AFK miner?
In the end this is a game, in some form or another we all pay for the time we spend in it and we are the ONLY ONES that get to determine if we are playing it properly or not.

Dior Ambraelle wrote:
Though I wouldn't call active gameplay where all you need to jetcan the ore once in every 15-20 minutes depending on the ships and boosts, even if you do it on 10 accounts.

Yet another of those players that think they know what an activity involves even though they have never done it. So let me give you a clue, not that you care but what the hell.

All of this is based on my personal experiences and the numbers from PYFA.
I do not use implants in my mining characters because I am cheap and they routinely get podded so why bother.
None of my ship fits are maxed, the small increases gained do not justify the additional costs when they are blown up at least not to me.
So with that out of the way here goes.

A typical large scale (well for me as a solo player anyway) mining op is 3 Hulks, 1 ORCA and 2 hauler pilots usually in DST's. Depending on the activity in the area over the last few days you can throw in 1 or 2 more characters that serve as scouts and to web the DST into warp.
One more thing I never use jet cans it is to much hassle but since you mention them specifically I will include them here.

At roughly 32 m3 per second mining rate a hulk fills it's ore bay every 4 minutes, that's 8,500 m3.
With 3 Hulks that's one ship every 1.33 minutes that needs to be emptied into the jet can.
Once every 4.3 minutes I have to empty the jet can into the ORCA.
Every 10 to 11 minutes I have to empty the ORCA (that's 70,000 m3 just so we are accurate) into a ship flown by one of the hauler pilots.
While all of this is going on I have to fly the haulers, d-scan the mining area and the area around the hauler that is moving and in most cases run the scout ships to check something out and to web the haulers into warp.
And yet with all of this activity you seem to think that I have long periods (15 - 20 minutes) where I am AFK and not playing the game. So typically arrogant and uninformed.

Are there those that can sit AFK for long periods while mining? sure there are those solo pilots with lower skills a low yield high tank fit and no boosts in a Mackinaw that MAY be able to achieve your mythical 15 - 20 minutes of AFK time. For the rest of the miners out there somewhere around 8 to 10 minutes is about the most AFK time they will have and still maintain any real efficiency in their mining.

I think you might benefit from swapping to Skiffs and adding on more pilot to your roster. I think you'll get the same output but with less clicking. Of course, you now need to pay for an extra pilot so there's that too.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#26 - 2017-06-09 13:26:47 UTC
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
I was in really scaredy cat mining fleets then, when everyone and their alts were using procurers and skiffs, those need time to get full.

Indeed you were in a bunch of scaredy cat mining fleets.
And yet this highlights something that has always puzzled me about PvP players. You will go out and casually toss away ships like they were wrappers from your noontime sandwich simply for the fun of watching stuff blow up, but when it comes to your PvE activities used to fund that PvP you turn all carebear and scared of a little risk. Why yes I do loose ships, considering where I mine the additional tank of the other mining ships will not make a significant difference, and the additional yield I gain from the hulks more than offsets the additional costs associated with losing one.

Rawketsled wrote:
I think you might benefit from swapping to Skiffs and adding on more pilot to your roster. I think you'll get the same output but with less clicking. Of course, you now need to pay for an extra pilot so there's that too.

And I think you would benefit from looking at a fit tool if you are serious about mining.
Numbers are based on my mining pilots and my typical fits. As they say your mileage may vary.
4 skiffs - 68.76 m3 per second
3 hulks - 95.7m3 per second.
To equal the output of my 3 hulk pilots I would need to run 5.5 skiff pilots, since you can't do that half a pilot thing that would mean I would have to run 6 skiff pilots for slightly more yield(103.02 m3 per second). The cost of plexing those 3 extra accounts does not make much sense to me since most of the additional yield would be lost to purchase those 3 plexes every month. Have not looked at this in the click fest spread sheet I have set up but my basic feeling is that the additional pilots would balance it out so that it would be essentially the same.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#27 - 2017-06-09 14:17:55 UTC
A Hulk mines 85% faster than a Skiff?
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#28 - 2017-06-09 14:29:05 UTC
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Dior Ambraelle wrote:

There is no shortage because you can mine AFK on ten accounts simultaneously.

And this is how we can tell you don't multibox mine.
Because anyone mining on 10 accounts is most certainly not AFK.

That's actually true, I'm glad I can run one client on decent settings currently.
Though I wouldn't call active gameplay where all you need to jetcan the ore once in every 15-20 minutes depending on the ships and boosts, even if you do it on 10 accounts.


do you even mine? a skiff, at least in highsec fills a load under boosts in approx 7.3 minutes....even with t1 strips most rocks pop in about 1.7 - 2.3 cycles......multibox, definitely not AFK unless its a scripted bunch of bots.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#29 - 2017-06-09 14:49:07 UTC
hmph, my group mines in highsec....

currently we run 2 orcas, 4 skiffs + 1 proc....
I operate the orcas and 1 skiff..

we can consume a belt that is typically 700k-750k m3 in about 45-55 minutes, approx (cause i havent used a stop watch method yet)

we see others in macks, hulks etc sometimes but they can not compete at all.......reasoning is they turn on lasers and then sit there, me and my fleet members pull lasers as fast as we can.

On days that we actually like to be hardcore we can take half the system if not more in as little as 3.5 hrs and that is pushing it to the extreme limits....some where in the range of 4-5 million m3.

So i have a question........
Why do people that do not multibox when it comes to mining, and do not have a clue about the efforts of others think they can open their mouth and roll out garbage? Multiboxing means not being AFK at all, so speaking of multiboxing should never be in the thoughts of an Ore mining discussion.
Kiddoomer
The Red Sequence
#30 - 2017-06-09 15:26:14 UTC
The main problem here is that the activity is good at being multiboxed, and always has been. At the point most people do not understand and even dont find as correct miners that want to have something balanced for one player per eve online character, be it solo or in fleet.

So when it comes to make it more engaging, first we need to ask whenever multiboxing is actually something intended to be the norm.

Otherwise every topic about mining will go absolutely nowhere.

In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen : “Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.”
Asset Confiscation Officer
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2017-06-09 17:41:52 UTC
CCP please make a trash can for "i have a great idea for a new mining mechanic" and automatically send them all there.

It is my firm belief that homogenizing game play is always bad for a game and is to be avoided. Your suggestion moves a mostly passive activity towards another active one and thus a game play style is being removed while yet another active one; which is not needed, is being added.

Also, people not mining but just wanting to grief miners (even more than they already are) is going to grow immensely and especially for highsec miners CCP itself has **** on highsec miners with several income nerfs to highsec mining in the past few years, so highsec miners dont need anymore crap tossed on their heads.

I dont understand why so many eve players want to make mining in highsec miserable or why CCP seems to agree that highsec miners should be as miserable as possible and possibly to the point of just plain quitting mining altogether but im guessing CCP spends about 25% of its budget trying to think up new and creative ways to make highsec mining miserable so perhaps you should hit them up for a job.
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