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[June] Fighter Damage Reduction

First post First post First post
Tacks E Vaderz
#121 - 2017-06-09 11:29:37 UTC
Selling my ratting carrier about a week ago is looking pretty smart right now :smug:

On the other hand, it seems pretty clear that the entire null PVE process got way out of hand so CCP is responding with ham-fisted responses like nerfing fighter damage and introducing a swing for the fences event like the Blood Raiders shipyard that only a tiny number of players interact with. I wonder how many of the non-Sanctum/Haven/Forsaken Hub anoms respawn day after month after year in high volume null ratting systems and never get used? I wonder how hard it would be to reduce the NPC bounties or increase their EHP if the problem is "ticks too high"? CCP created the situation where caps/supers are nearly ubiquitous compared to even a few years ago and now their only response is a pretty substantial nerf with almost no notice.

CCP better hope the new moon mining scheme is a conflict generator because otherwise it is going to be increasingly less attractive for players to log in to null and low sec. Outside of a few heavily trafficked areas it is incredible how many systems in low and null-sec are essentially empty all day and that is going to increase with this change. You might think "Good, serves the filthy carebears right!" but the fewer people logging in, the less opportunities there are for meaningful content. The disconnect with why most players log in and what CCP seems to think players want grows more pronounced every day.
Morrigan Laima
Shooting Blues Everyday
Gimme Da Loot
#122 - 2017-06-09 11:30:43 UTC
I don't see how carriers/supers are that much of a problem - you can't scale with them anymore. How does this even begin to compare with the pre-citadel levels of broken, where you had players AFK ratting with a dozen or more carriers across different anomalies?

The blocs are doing exactly what powerblocs do when they aren't fighting - they are building up a warchest as fast as humanly possible. And they'll keep doing exactly that, by whatever means they work out to be the best balance of time, effort, and ISK reward.

This isn't changing, because there's no reason to fight.

What I don't understand though, is why this nerf isn't aimed at something scalable? Even with my PLEX costs, I could still outpace a supercarrier ratting with smartbombing battleships in a single anom or with AFKtars. in multiple anoms. Why hurt the solo player?

And, why are other faucets, which offer higher reward and lower risk not being nerfed first?

Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2017-06-09 11:30:47 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
A year ago, we got the long awaited Capital ship changes which finally revitalized the class as a whole. It was obvious that Capital ships were going to be very powerful, both in PVP and PVE. You gave us powerful end game ships to work towards - something worth commitment to Eve. Roughly six months later you did the same thing with the Rorqual. Now, a year after these changes, when most players have finally begun to benefit from them, you reduce the ships back to roughly where they were before.

Maybe that's a good thing in the long run, maybe it's not. Maybe it pisses off so many people who feel that you pulled another bait and switch with training. Maybe it makes Battleships great again. But this is a major change that affects way more than running anomalies.

Nine months ago, it was clear that this game was headed to "Carriers online." Carriers were going to be the mainline DPS boats for PVE and PVP fleets. These training and resource intensive ships were going to be totally dominant. And that is what we have seen these past few months in many major battles. Massive numbers of Carriers supported by FAX replacing massive numbers of Battleships supported by Logistics. There has been an arms race these past few months to get massive numbers of people into Carrier and Supercapital fleets. That's why everyone has been ratting and mining until their eyes bleed these past few months, because you handed the keys to the game to resource and training intensive ships. The group with the most wins. Just as it is about to come to fruition for the late comers, you announce a massive and fundamental change to Capital ships. It would be nice if you could be more agile with your development, but it is hard to steer a Battleship (or Carrier Blink ). A small course correction here and there goes a long way.

Obviously, this will have profound impacts across Eve, but it won't fix the underlying PVE problem, which is that resources never deplete, no matter how relentlessly you farm. I could run a thousand anomalies and the Blood Raiders would never bat an eye. They never send different ships, they never escalate, they never stop flying right into my guns. If I run Incursions, the Sanshas would basically do the same thing, but at least they move on to a different part of Eve every few days. Maybe you need to fundamentally rethink resource generation in Eve? Get rid of the unlimited local ratting opportunities. Maybe people who log in to find that there are no rats to kill will simply log out again. Or maybe they will do something else and make Eve more interesting. If you pursue this, however, it has to be across the board. Everything has to be finite or people will just shift to continuous PVE in another part of space. Yes, that means the Damsel can only be rescued from Dodixie so many times a day...

Across the board, ISK-generating PVE should be more like wormhole space or Incursions. PVE content eventually depletes. Out of things to do locally? Leave home and go kill some dudes or crab it up some place new.

this. i wish my brain was able to make this come out
Acia Saraki
S0utherN Comfort
#124 - 2017-06-09 11:31:41 UTC
I think CCP don't play their game

If i can't PLEX my account, it's over for me
Ergum Motsu
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#125 - 2017-06-09 11:32:00 UTC
Rather than nerfing fighter damage, why not fix the sites themselves. Add acceleration gates/A N other kind of preventable warp function to to the anomolies preventing carriers/super carrier from entering them. Limit havens/sanctums to Battleship size hulls and move down the list. Reduce the bounties somewhat. This will slow down the influx of isk into the economy.

Give null sec something worth wanting to fight over maybe.

Implementing the Blood Raider NPC sites to a certain region giving more content to be farmed, making one of if not the richest alliances even richer yet with nothing to spend that isk on as theres no wars going on. Why are there no wars going on? FozzieSov = not much fun.

Nerfing something in pvp just because its used for farming pve content makes little if no sense......well to me at least, but then again, I am just one of your players what do i know.
Bron Ander Haltern
Special Mining Ops Inc.
#126 - 2017-06-09 11:33:47 UTC
Hopefully that change will be as much painfull for you as for us CCP Twisted. You slowly shoot down all goals for casual players in the game shame and really sad you make wow out of eve Cry.
Atlan Dallocort
Know your Role
#127 - 2017-06-09 11:35:32 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
Lightbringer wrote:
April was 2 months ago. bit late for a joke.

I do wonder if CCP even play their own game.
We also think that Carriers and Supercarriers are a bit too effective in PvP now., so now they do no damage before instantly dieing because of the previous nerf? :D RIP.

How do they go from overpowered to no damage if they lose 20% DPS. Seems reasonable to me.

You should maybe collect some large scale capital experience. Carrier fleet pvp it the game of fighters. And fighters are very easy to kill since the last signature nerf. An AHAC fleet works like a bunch of 8,8cm Flaks. They murder wave after wave.

-> No fighters, no damage.
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#128 - 2017-06-09 11:36:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Fonac
While i totally agree with the above points about isk faucets, and how it dangers the economy. I can't help but feel CCP is doing symptom bandages, instead of actually inventing a cure to the problem.

You guys always seem to fix something that's broken, by changing some numbers. Which more often than not is a symptom of broken or bad mechanics. Often it's included with a message of "we'll get back to that later" - Or making an excuse about how it's dangering the new eden world. This without addressing the real issue.

And this is a very good example.

You got a system that benefits directly from pouring more damage into it. It scales so well, that the output is directly connected with the input you put into it..
If you decide to play with others, you're taking a hit. And reducing your potential output, despite the fact that you perform on the same level, as if you played solo.

Not only does this change reduce the damage you do in PvE, it also interferes with your output in PvP. How does that even make sense?

And this brings forth my question;
Why not look at the issue itself? - The anomaly's and how the mechanics with that system works?

Edit: Btw i don't rat myself, at all.
Solidus Obscura
Templis CALSF
#129 - 2017-06-09 11:37:04 UTC
As you may have seen in the May Monthly Economy Report, there is a significant upward trend in the Money Supply. This is primarily due to NPC Bounties.

You don't specify whether this is from Carrier ratting versus VNI/Ishtar ratting.

Consider the following:

  • Carrier ratting is an extremely focus intensive activity, especially after the nerfs to fighter sig radius. You cannot effectively multibox carriers.
  • VNI/Ishtar ratting is the exact opposite. You warp to site, drop drones, orbit whatever, and in a period of time, the site is clear. This lends itself to 23/7 passive ratting and easy multiboxing.

I am struggling to understand why you are nerfing carriers for this reason. If it's really a PVP nerf, then say it's a PVP nerf. Don't beat around the bush with what we all perceive as fake news. And if it is true that carriers are the problem- give us some numbers. A breakdown of NPC bounty income from VNIs/Ishtars versus Carriers. And if it's skewed as you're implying, then you'll have a lot more support.

Additionally, carrier ratting generates some of the highest ISK/hr for people that don't significantly multibox. If you nerf this hard then those folks would move to less riskier Incursions in HighSec. This would be extremely bad for the game.
Orbital Tactics
#130 - 2017-06-09 11:37:34 UTC
This is mu 1st post on forum for some game...
This shuld be game place where you come for some fun, but I dont know why DEV's do all to ruin it.
You DEV's(CCP) can say "May Monthly Economy report" but that is just suck. Why suck?
Do you know how much time/isk some player need to get in Carrier/Super?
let's say some player order Super for 16b, and he need to fit him for like more 7b and he need 17days to produce Super and then, at all that he need to risk ship ~23b isk for just 90m isk per 20 mins of kiling rats...
That ship can be kiled by 20's t3 players(T3 whit total 10b whit fit) in less then 5mins, but there will be 50+ players to kill him and gess what, in 3mins 50-80 Caracals(50m ship whit fit) can kill Super which one you plan to nerf instad to buff.

Why you did not count on it devils CCP?

Whit all your changes untild now and this new what you plan Supers\Carriers will become crap for PvP and crap for PvE.Then lets rat in Titans..Even if you plan to change game mechanic give players more time like 6months or so.

I was start to play EvE in H sec, and there I need 3months for mu 1st plex, and I love EvE cose it's game on long plan run, it's hard game, but this change what you plan to do it's just ruin your own child your EvE and us EvE.

When I look on this I gess you have problem whit best organized alliance in game, and i gess it's CCP vs GOONS patch

And after all I must to say it's look like you dont love your players, ppl which hold this game , hold your child.
If you do this big nerff at the and you shuld reduce cost of Carrier(53%) / Supers(60%) and fighters(for 80%)

I hope someone from CCP read. Best Regards to all
Darine Artwik
#131 - 2017-06-09 11:37:35 UTC
Guess what?
Multiboxing SB Battleships? No Nerf!
Multiboxing VNIs/Ishtars? No Nerf!
Multiboxing Rorquals? Just +1
Soloing Carriers/Supers? Nerfed to death.
Soloing Rorquals? Nerfed to death.

CCP certainly NOT following a special agenda there. Multiboxing and therefore more sub money for CCP not favored at all.
Drakes Incorporated
#132 - 2017-06-09 11:37:38 UTC
Oh well guess its time to sell the carriers and super, looks like this is dread online now, love it how all the CSM are just sucking face to CCP, guess they get chosen for no brains, i wish actually voting made a difference, not just oh look I'm in a big alliance u must all vote for me...yaywin.

Like seriously tho you already made it so subcaps can smash supers, like whats the point in having the long train when u just get murdered by sub caps so easily, if ur going to nerf the damage, at least make it so the aidsy jamming is actually fightable.... like is it hard to bring in a module that increases their strength...... wish CCP wasn't so into nerfing atm like do something new....
Melons Trader
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#133 - 2017-06-09 11:38:08 UTC
Want to stop carriers getting dank ticks. easy give all ratting anoms acceleration gates with ship restrictions the carrier it self dose not need a nerf.
Ezio Sotken
State War Academy
Caldari State
#134 - 2017-06-09 11:38:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Ezio Sotken
I used to run incursions as my primary income source until I bought a carrier for pvp. Now a carrier, already the worst PVP cap ship ( remembers old slowcat days fondly now) will also be worse at ratting to support my ever growing cap ships. A carrier to rat in has allowed me to buy more than one cap. Now I have a dread, fax, and a carrier.

All what I see in these changes, rorq's, faction BS's, now carriers is a systematic effort to hurt the regular null sec PVPer and give yet more isk to the stupid rich while at the same time trying to turn EVE into a free to play game at the level of WoT or Clash of Clans.

I hope it does not get to that point, but sadly looks more and more likely every time I see a post like this one.
Ender Ambrye
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2017-06-09 11:38:50 UTC
I have been training for carriers on three characters (mainly for PVP) - I have bought injectors, I have reallocated skills buying extractors - in short I have spent a fortune with you, for yet another product that does not reach me as advertised...just like T3s, the Ishtar, etc etc...I pick a high tier ship, train for months at great expense, and then you guys come and nerf bat them into uselessness. Its really s**t practice guys.

Fighters V is two months FFS!! Thats £20 x 3 you have just devalued significantly - how is that fair? I really think that these nerfs, of high tier, high SP items should come at a cost, to you, the supplier...give us SP, or a sweetener, anything to ease the dismay at you diluting our subscription again and again.
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2017-06-09 11:39:06 UTC
I dont know why I just remembered that Capitals have a 1000% modifier to entosis or somethign like that. Why not just tack on a -80% to pirate bounty payouts on the hull's role and be done rather than mess with a combat ship's combat capability?
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#137 - 2017-06-09 11:39:44 UTC
I guess the formula >

%moreplayers = %morecontent = %morefun = %biggerplayerbase = %moreCCPincome is a mistery ....

CCP just decided

%lessplayers = %lesscontent = %lessfun = %smallerplayerbase = %lessCCPincome

Good job to the guy that thought of this....
Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#138 - 2017-06-09 11:40:05 UTC

If you wanted to keep carriers as PVP ships, why not make all combat sites static deadspace? That way capitals are not allowed into them. There are many spawnable combat sites that are deadspace locked anyway, why not make them all? You still need to unlock the higher amount of anomolies in the higher security class systems with the sov upgrades, but making them static deadspace and put them on a respawn timer.

(Mostly) everyone is happy. Carriers are still powerful pvp machines, but with their inherent weakness to ECM, the "problem" of nullsec isk faucet is turned off, and you haven't nerfed a ship into oblivion.

It's still crappy for everyone, but everyone still has something, and a little bit of dignity.

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...

Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2017-06-09 11:40:42 UTC
oh dear, people wont be able to plex accounts, such unfair, many grrrs

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Eau Rouge
#140 - 2017-06-09 11:44:10 UTC
after all the rl money being spent on injectors to skill up to carriers, you guys missing the cash stream?