Intergalactic Summit

In another thread Arkady Sadik of Electus Matari made an insightful comment. He said that the struggle vs. Amarr Empire hasn't been about slavery for a long time. He suggested that the struggle originated in the violent relocation of his people. I think he might be right

But first, let us be honest: If someone walked up to you on the streets and started beating you up, claiming he did so because nearly a thousand years ago one of his ancestors was beat up by one of your ancestors, you would no doubt think him insane.

Yes, it has been almost a millenium ago that my ancestors relocated a good portion of Arkady Sadik;s ancestors. People don't hold grudges for a thousand years, most people have trouble holding on to a grudge for even a couple of years. This grudge has been passed on by generation upon generation, the hatred of the Amarr taught by father to son, mother to daughter. A thousand years is about 30 generations worth of tales.

Let us be honest about another thing too: the number of Matari slaves captured these days and delivered to Amarrian holders is likely outnumbered by the slaves that escape (by themselves of with the help of Republic terrorists), and almost certainly outnumbered by the number of slaves taken captive by an organization like the Angel Cartel. Additionally, the average Cartel slaver is much, much worse a master than the average Amarr Holder. But we don't see a popular uprising against the Angel Cartel. We don't have any threads on the IGS with Matari waving torches about in hopes of bringing down the Cartel.

I think the struggle against the Amarr Empire has become a important (perhaps even central) value in Matari culture. A value almost completely dominating the traditional historical rivalries between the tribes. Matari faerie tales now prominently figure twisted Amarr holders or lecherous Amarr priests as stereotypical antagonists while traditional protagonists in such stories have given way to the rogueish Freedom Fighters. Matari youth aspire to die for their people fighting the 'Empire of Evil'.

The fact that this struggle has been so ingrained in popular culture is why I think the earlier attempts by Heideran to meet the Matari peacefully failed. This is why we were subjected to a sneak attack after years of offering peace. This fact is why I think releasing every slave from the 9th generation and up didn't diminish any of the Matari attacks or their passion to fight the Amarr. This is why many Matari claim they will 'fight on to the very last slave is freed'.

Sadly, this leads me to conclude that abolishing slavery or agreeing to some of the Matari's desires will have little effect on relations. To many the Amarr Empire has become evil incarnate, and must be fought regardless. Sadly this leads me to conclude that to resolve this struggle, Matari culture has to be completely and utterly eradicated. Maybe Matari slave children should no longer be raised by their Matari parents, perhaps slaves' freedoms should be curtailed much more than they already are.

This would be a sad thing if it were true. Sad if it has come done to an 'us' or 'them'. I would prefer to progress together, instead of one needing to eradicate the other. But if it does come to this, the Amarr Empire will be victorious.

Those reports tend to have truth in them for a reason y'know, "no smoke without fire" comes to mind here.

More likely not helped by the constant incursions into Matari border systems by Amarrian Militia, or profound statements about "enlightening" or "educating" (read, "assimilating") the citizens of the Republic.

Of course some of your more mouthy pilots talking about looking forward to having them and their families as slaves in the future doesn't help matters either.

Try to look at your own doings before pointing the blame elsewhere. Quite frankly if I had to put up with the crap the Empire has thrown at the Matari, I'd probably hate them too.

That didn't take long. Mr. Merdaneth, I have long wondered the same regarding the racial hatred of the Amarr among Matari, but with this you have proven you are not the man to address it. This analogy falls completely flat because of its dishonesty. And yes I will deliberately mock you for making a dishonest analogy to make a point and prefacing it with "Let's be honest" as soon as I can find a good joke for it.

Why is it dishonest? Because it in no way resembles the struggle of the Minmatar against the Amarr and its institutional, generational slavery. Why?



Its not a grudge if it is ongoing.



"Let us be honest about another thing too:"

Damn it man I still haven't come up with a joke for the first one, slow down.

"Likely"

"Certainly"

Citation Needed.

If you're going to make these claims, you need to bring some kind of evidence for them, otherwise its just your opinion and holds no weight whatsoever.

"Additionally, the average Cartel slaver is much, much worse a master than the average Amarr Holder. But we don't see a popular uprising against the Angel Cartel. We don't have any threads on the IGS with Matari waving torches about in hopes of bringing down the Cartel."

Look, I understand the point you're trying to make here but if your basic premise is "We're not as bad as those other guys!" you have a very serious problem and you need to reevaluate what you're doing and what your ideals are.

That said, I actually would like to see more Matari taking a strong stance against the Cartel, or if they do I'd just like to see it voiced more often, because its probably the single biggest obstacle the Republic faces as a nation and an obstacle to their people's faith in their government's competence. (Ancestors choke that last part could be better written.)



Or maybe its because you still have their people in captivity? And for the record, I read the Pax Amarria, and aside from all the God stuff Heideran sounded like a pretty cool dude.

"Sadly, this leads me to conclude that abolishing slavery or agreeing to some of the Matari's desires will have little effect on relations."

So basically what you're saying is that you don't think the Matari are sincere in wanting you to stop holding their people in captivity. That its just some excuse they have to keep fighting you, so they don't have to come to terms with the "fact" that their hatred is groundless and just some propaganda for them to hold together.

...Actually after reading up at your honest-dishonest analogy, that's exactly what you're saying. That's just disappointing, Merdaneth. You're so out of touch with reality and so unable to empathize that you can't even understand what they're actually upset about.



Way ahead of you: The Empire is already working on it! Hooray!

In fact its what they do every time they conquer a new people. Haven't you read your own history books?

Do note that I was born and raised in the Ammatar Mandate, so my views will probably not represent those of the "average" Matari.

I do not hate the Amarr Empire specifically. I hate the pain inflicted by the institution of slavery. I've shot at every slave-holding faction in the cluster, and continue to do so. I think where most Matari find offense with the Empire rather than, say, the Cartel or Blood Raiders is because the Amarr Empire is the only high-sec faction that keeps slaves. In other words, it is completely legal in the Empire (which is a recognized empire faction by CONCORD). This is contrasted by the other slave-holding factions which are invariably outlaw factions that are hunted down by CONCORD. Why isn't the Empire also hunted down by CONCORD?

Why are slaves illegal in the CONCORD Assembly but not in the Empire, a faction under CONCORD protection? I'd imagine many Matari would agree with me when I say this is hypocritical of CONCORD to protect the Empire's practice of slavery. Asked differently, shouldn't the entire Empire be classed as an outlaw faction?

So you seriously expect the Minmatar to just "forget" the pivotal events in their civilization's history, no matter how long ago they happened? This is a tad hypocritical coming from a society that is so proud to point out traditions and history that spans aeons.

But placing that aside for a moment, let's look at the practical aspect; the Amarrian invasion and subsequent occupation forever changed the course of Matari cultural development. Your ancestors effectively ******** the growth and development of the Minmatar people for a thousand years. Millions of lives were snuffed out. Many times that number were forcibly taken from their homes and transported to the Empire where they were beaten, killed, drugged, sexually assaulted, forced to breed like cattle, used in heinous medical experiments, etc. That's a lot to ask a people to "forgive and forget" don't you think? Especially since the Amarr continue to this day to proclaim their intentions to re-conquer the Matari and subjugate all the rest of humanity as well.

Perhaps you should ask the Caldari to "let bygones be bygones" as well.

Your Empire operates much like a corrupt criminal enterprise and also wants to eradicate all culture and thought differing from your own Farel so, I see those comparisons as very apt.

When you have Gutter Press to compare it to? Yeah.

There's no debate about whether or not there are slavers in Republic space catering to the Amarrian market. There are slavers representing the Empire, and they are in Republic space. I have seen them, and shot at them.




I was expressing how a typical Matari might view it. And as far as the issue of slavery goes the Empire, Cartel, and Nation are easily comparable. Though their methods and stated intentions may differ, they all take away the freedom of other people.

You tried to destroy their way of life and enslaved them for centuries, still enslaving them currently. You are surprised that their culture has morphed around this critical and dramatic event in their people's history? Can you imagine how traumatic that must have been for them? Show some objectivity, for your own sake.

Hatred of the Amarr? I wouldn't say so... Hatred of the Empire as a symbol, an institution.. yes, unfortunately I can see that. I love the Empire although I despair for what it has done.. and still does...