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[119.6] Standup Thukker Capital Component rigs

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HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
#21 - 2017-05-23 20:53:00 UTC
Current "Thukker Component Assembly Array" bonus are applied to...

Quote:
An assembly facility where Standard and Advanced Capital Ship Components can be manufactured.


I just want to ensure, that you keep in mind, that T1 and T2 Capital Components...

Many players do not know, that you can lower the costs of JFs with that array as well...
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#22 - 2017-05-23 21:01:07 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Thanks for the feedback so far everyone.

To clarify some of the questions around the breakdown of rigs, we plan to have Thukker variations of all the Standup rigs that impact ME of capital construction components and/or advanced capital construction components. So the total list of new rigs would be:
Standup M-Set Thukker Advanced Component Manufacturing Material Efficiency
Standup M-Set Thukker Basic Capital Component Manufacturing Material Efficiency
Standup L-Set Thukker Advanced Component Manufacturing Efficiency
Standup L-Set Thukker Basic Capital Component Manufacturing Efficiency
Standup XL-Set Thukker Structure and Component Manufacturing Efficiency

The data chip will have a chance of dropping any one of the blueprints for these rigs.

mr awesomemate wrote:
1. Will we be able to unfit T1 capital component rigs in low-sec for this? Or do we have to destroy.

We do not plan any special removal conditions for existing rigs in connection to this change. Whenever we add new rigs players have the choice of keeping their current ones or switching at the cost of their old ones.

mr awesomemate wrote:
2. Will there be any TE reduction? The thukker component array gave a very big one.

The Large and XL versions of this rig will provide standard TE bonuses. The Thukker Component Array has a significant TE bonus but it's exactly the same TE bonus as a standard Component Assembly Array, not anything special for the Thukker variation.

mr awesomemate wrote:
3. Be very careful with the droprate on these. I think they dropped about 1/10 times from besieged before and as a result there were 1000s of these very quickly. Reasonably theres probably only going to be 50-70 citadels fitting with these things in a year (due to their low-sec exclusivity). Please dont let them turn into basically useless loot as they were before.

We do expect that the supply of these blueprints will easily be able to outstrip demand, but that's a fairly common pattern with specialized loot. Since we are converting the old BPCs to the new ones there's no realistic way to avoid market saturation.

Kuhn Arashi wrote:
Is that 7.03% after the standard 1.9x effectiveness bonus for lowsec? or is this rig structured differently, like 7.03% and only in lowsec and 0x bonus for other space?

It's after the lowsec effectiveness bonus. Behind the scenes these rigs will have a base 3.7% ME reduction for capital parts with the standard 1.9x lowsec modifier and a 0.1x multiplier for highsec and nullsec.

Querns wrote:
Does the Thukker rig have 100 calibration (T1) or 150 calibration (T2)?

100, like the T1 rig.

Thunder Fenix wrote:
I...the "vaucher" for the new rig is there but unrecoverable... what reprocessing yeld is needed to get it?

To correct this issue we have actually doubled the number of chips provided by the reprocessing of these structures. In the new version (which will be on sisi soon) with 50% or higher yield you'll always get at least one chip and it will be possible to get a few extra chips from large batches.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
SnoBerry Tea
0.0 Massive Dynamic
Pandemic Horde
#23 - 2017-05-23 23:22:54 UTC
Standup M-Set Thukker Advanced Component Manufacturing Material Efficiency
Standup L-Set Thukker Advanced Component Manufacturing Efficiency

Will these be added to the test server? Not currently there.

CCP Fozzie wrote:

It's after the lowsec effectiveness bonus. Behind the scenes these rigs will have a base 3.7% ME reduction for capital parts with the standard 1.9x lowsec modifier and a 0.1x multiplier for highsec and nullsec.


So T2 rig in Null = 5.04% ME bonus
Thukker rig in Low = 7.03% ME bonus
1.99% better ME in low vs 11% better with the Thukker Array? Is this also a balance pass to get lowsec shops to close up? Didn't realize lowsec was so over crowded.

Shouldn't it be 8.44% base ME bonus instead of 3.7%?
8.44% x 1.9 Lowsec bonus = 16.04% which would be the correct 11% difference over nullsec the lowsec groups have been able to use to remain competitive.
HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
#24 - 2017-05-24 07:19:56 UTC  |  Edited by: HandelsPharmi
*please delete*
Ficti0n
Job Center Plus
#25 - 2017-05-24 12:30:18 UTC
SnoBerry Tea wrote:
Standup M-Set Thukker Advanced Component Manufacturing Material Efficiency
Standup L-Set Thukker Advanced Component Manufacturing Efficiency

Will these be added to the test server? Not currently there.

CCP Fozzie wrote:

It's after the lowsec effectiveness bonus. Behind the scenes these rigs will have a base 3.7% ME reduction for capital parts with the standard 1.9x lowsec modifier and a 0.1x multiplier for highsec and nullsec.


So T2 rig in Null = 5.04% ME bonus
Thukker rig in Low = 7.03% ME bonus
1.99% better ME in low vs 11% better with the Thukker Array? Is this also a balance pass to get lowsec shops to close up? Didn't realize lowsec was so over crowded.

Shouldn't it be 8.44% base ME bonus instead of 3.7%?
8.44% x 1.9 Lowsec bonus = 16.04% which would be the correct 11% difference over nullsec the lowsec groups have been able to use to remain competitive.


Comparing to T2 lol. These thukker rigs cost little extra then T1 (t1 as input + some covert research tools), have a look at T2 large rigs for comparison.

And last time I checked 7.03 > 5.04. How does this kill low-sec it's a buff.
HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
#26 - 2017-05-24 13:51:55 UTC
Ficti0n wrote:

And last time I checked 7.03 > 5.04. How does this kill low-sec it's a buff.


Well it kills lowsec compared to its current situation...
in past you had a bonus of 15 % compared to nullsec, WH and highsec...

After the patch, the bonus will not be significant like before.

The risk is the same. (We are still in lowsec.)
The investment is around the same. (POS vs. EC - for the component production ONLY!)
The output is lower. (A real lower bonus than before.)
SnoBerry Tea
0.0 Massive Dynamic
Pandemic Horde
#27 - 2017-05-27 16:23:50 UTC
I think we're having a hard time understanding what's going on here so here's some pretty pictures

http://imgur.com/a/jbaXV

Top is existing system on Tranq with Thukker Array (POS) and bottom is with the Thukker rigs in a lowsec EC.

15% bonus from Thukker Array, 8% bonus from EC/Thukker Rig. That 7% loss of bonus going to the rig adds up to approximately a 600mil isk increase in cost to build a Jump Freighter. That's almost the entire profit margin of building a JF from goo/minerals to JF (building the T1 components, then the t1 hull, then the t2 components from goo, then the JF itself). Add in the overhead of jump fuel, EC fuel, risk, etc...

So this change alone will end lowsec industry for capital production and there might as well not even be a Thukker Rig in the first place if the 3.7% bonus is all we get. Can CCP please reconsider what they are doing here? The math isnt that hard.
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2017-05-29 06:19:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Bjorn Tyrson
SnoBerry Tea wrote:
I think we're having a hard time understanding what's going on here so here's some pretty pictures

http://imgur.com/a/jbaXV

Top is existing system on Tranq with Thukker Array (POS) and bottom is with the Thukker rigs in a lowsec EC.

15% bonus from Thukker Array, 8% bonus from EC/Thukker Rig. That 7% loss of bonus going to the rig adds up to approximately a 600mil isk increase in cost to build a Jump Freighter. That's almost the entire profit margin of building a JF from goo/minerals to JF (building the T1 components, then the t1 hull, then the t2 components from goo, then the JF itself). Add in the overhead of jump fuel, EC fuel, risk, etc...

So this change alone will end lowsec industry for capital production and there might as well not even be a Thukker Rig in the first place if the 3.7% bonus is all we get. Can CCP please reconsider what they are doing here? The math isnt that hard.


so what your saying is that without that 7% bonus there is near zero profit to be made in captial manufacturing... well you shouldn't have much trouble competing with null sec then since they have even lower bonuses which according to your numbers puts null sec manufacturing at a loss.

or, what is more likely to happen, is that some people will get priced out during the transition and fold up shop sure. but that will both lower demand for the moon goo, as well as capital supply. driving the prices of capitals up, and (to a lesser extend) the price of moon goo down, until, a few months from now, the profit margins will return to right about the same that they are now.
Tessa Sage
Long Pig Luncheon Meat
Sending Thots And Players
#29 - 2017-06-07 03:23:51 UTC
SnoBerry Tea wrote:
So this change alone will end lowsec industry for capital production and there might as well not even be a Thukker Rig in the first place if the 3.7% bonus is all we get. Can CCP please reconsider what they are doing here? The math isnt that hard.


Jump freighter inputs are not the only instances of barely cashflow positive, in this case industry made at-cost before rig bonuses. Think of insurance on T2 or faction hulls, you have a choice of utility vs aesthetic / impulse buy.

Not to throw trade secrets your way so I will generalize: have you watched T2 inputs' listings for the last 3 months? Stagnation! Not only are these advanced builds getting nerfed for lowsec, the incentive to build sooner rather than later is simply not there. I agree SnoBerry, it isn't as sufficient of an improvement.
Amantus
Drexciyan Sea Unit
SPACE DETROIT
#30 - 2017-06-09 20:58:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Amantus
SnoBerry Tea wrote:
I think we're having a hard time understanding what's going on here so here's some pretty pictures

http://imgur.com/a/jbaXV

Top is existing system on Tranq with Thukker Array (POS) and bottom is with the Thukker rigs in a lowsec EC.

15% bonus from Thukker Array, 8% bonus from EC/Thukker Rig. That 7% loss of bonus going to the rig adds up to approximately a 600mil isk increase in cost to build a Jump Freighter. That's almost the entire profit margin of building a JF from goo/minerals to JF (building the T1 components, then the t1 hull, then the t2 components from goo, then the JF itself). Add in the overhead of jump fuel, EC fuel, risk, etc...

So this change alone will end lowsec industry for capital production and there might as well not even be a Thukker Rig in the first place if the 3.7% bonus is all we get. Can CCP please reconsider what they are doing here? The math isnt that hard.


Agreed. I think overall, ECs are very disappointing for lowsec manufacturing. I think there needs to be more of a relative advantage as reward for building in lowsec which has the double whammy of a dense population (more dangerous AND higher taxes), but poor natural resources and a dense enough population that harvesting these resources is too dangerous for anyone to bother.

Without the Thukker rigs there is zero point in building in lowsec. With the Thukker rigs at least producers can stay competitive, but the negatives of lowsec production are still there, and still big.

That said, I'm not too worried about JF prices. I'm expecting build cost will go up massively (directly increased costs from reduced ME bonus as well as the impact of re-worked moon goo harvesting & reactions) no doubt about it, but I think the sale price will increase to compensate.
SnoBerry Tea
0.0 Massive Dynamic
Pandemic Horde
#31 - 2017-06-10 03:07:43 UTC
I don't care if they raise the ME bonus or lower it overall, the market will compensate with the general value of the ship. I am happy with how free markets handle these changes. My concern is they are nerfing the ME bonus for Lowsec builders and no proportional effect on nullsec/highsec builders. This change is a blatant nerf specifically to lowsec builders which will push more of them into null or stop building entirely. We go from a 15% ME edge to a 1-2% advantage which is substantially more difficult to justify the added challenges to building in lowsec vs null/high.

In some regards lowsec industry has the worst of all the game mechanics (aside from the safety from bubbles and a slight disincentive to podding). As you said, higher population, the worst access to resources, generally just as dangerous as null as far as indu goes. That has to be offset with a profit margin to remain competitve that is being completely vaporized. I want to know why CCP specifically wants to wreck lowsec factories.
Ipushmyfingersintomyeyes
0.0 Massive Dynamic
Pandemic Horde
#32 - 2017-06-12 00:38:15 UTC
Erm. I know you probably said the Thukker bonus is to replace the regular T1 bonus but in Azbels (havnt tried Sotiyo yet) we're getting a 10.6% ME bonus from the rig. Is the Thukker bonus *in addition to* the existing T1 ME bonus or in place of?

http://i.imgur.com/d5SNPdr.png

My guess is the T1 bonus is in additon to the Thukker Bonus:
0.9297 x 0.962 = 0.89437 or 10.5628% bonus. Rounds to 10.6

If this is the case can we *PLEASE* keep this bonus as an addition to the T1 rig effect as this will greatly improve the rig's ability to keep lowsec competitive with manufacturing. This just needs to also work on Raitaru and Sotiyo in lowsec.
gaymeuh
Eureka holding
#33 - 2017-06-13 19:12:53 UTC  |  Edited by: gaymeuh
Beautiful thukker nerve, before the bonus compare to the risk was worth it but now it's so ridiculous that it's just useless.

I looked at the difference on the test server and if you put the bonus of refining in dry null it is more profitable in NS ...

Ipushmyfingersintomyeyes wrote:
Erm. I know you probably said the Thukker bonus is to replace the regular T1 bonus but in Azbels (havnt tried Sotiyo yet) we're getting a 10.6% ME bonus from the rig. Is the Thukker bonus *in addition to* the existing T1 ME bonus or in place of?

http://i.imgur.com/d5SNPdr.png

My guess is the T1 bonus is in additon to the Thukker Bonus:
0.9297 x 0.962 = 0.89437 or 10.5628% bonus. Rounds to 10.6

If this is the case can we *PLEASE* keep this bonus as an addition to the T1 rig effect as this will greatly improve the rig's ability to keep lowsec competitive with manufacturing. This just needs to also work on Raitaru and Sotiyo in lowsec.


you can't put one thukker rigg and one capital component rigg. just thukker or component.
klana depp
Tr0pa de elite.
#34 - 2017-06-18 09:25:52 UTC
Ipushmyfingersintomyeyes wrote:
Erm. I know you probably said the Thukker bonus is to replace the regular T1 bonus but in Azbels (havnt tried Sotiyo yet) we're getting a 10.6% ME bonus from the rig. Is the Thukker bonus *in addition to* the existing T1 ME bonus or in place of?

http://i.imgur.com/d5SNPdr.png

My guess is the T1 bonus is in additon to the Thukker Bonus:
0.9297 x 0.962 = 0.89437 or 10.5628% bonus. Rounds to 10.6

If this is the case can we *PLEASE* keep this bonus as an addition to the T1 rig effect as this will greatly improve the rig's ability to keep lowsec competitive with manufacturing. This just needs to also work on Raitaru and Sotiyo in lowsec.


how on earth did you get that?
all i can get is -1% from structure and -7% from the thukker rig. even show info says "-7.03%" on the rig after it is fitted.

so thats the worst lowsec industry nerf ever? not only do you need 2 crazy expensive rigs now to cover t1capital AND jf construction; but it is also giving so much less than a simple previously-15mil thukker caa.. thanks ccp :(
klana depp
Tr0pa de elite.
#35 - 2017-06-18 09:52:54 UTC  |  Edited by: klana depp
so to sum it up..

previously:

  • (+) POS module for 15-25mil ...
  • (+) .. that could be brought up and taken down any time without loss
  • (+) would cover T1 capital components and T2 capital components
  • (+) 15% material reduction to offset the risk of being exposed to "lowsec eve people"
  • (+) the "lowsec advantage" vs 0.0 was 13% ME reduction (15% vs 2%) .. well its more complicated with upgraded outposts bit still several % in the end.
  • (+) could be slapped onto pretty much every tower because it would only require "some fitting"
  • (-) very limited hangar space, had to play tetris all the time


now:

  • (-) building (L-set) rig needs T1 rig which currently costs ca 4.5b to build, plus the actual thukker bpc, plus covert tools (which are mostly irrelevant for cost)
  • (-) but you need 2, because suddenly basic and advanced components are split
  • (-) ofc if you ever want to relocate, for example because of $("§&$/&"§$ industrial indexes, it all goes puff because :legacy code reasons:
  • (-) requires a precious dedicated rig slot in your azbel.. or two.
  • (-) and after all this: a whopping ~8% material reduction (... wtf?)
  • (-) the "lowsec advantage" vs 0.0 is now only ~2% (8% vs 6%)
  • (+) unlimited hangar space, ... well not because of the rig but still....


note1: ccp originally said that it will probably be possible to unanchor a citadel, scoop it in a freighter, and redeploy it somewhere without losing rigs.. but then rowed back on it. thats what i am referring to

note2: i understand the concept of industrial indexes and i am ok with it. but the combination of massively overpriced rigs that you cannot move ever AND those indexes is what drives my anger


2% ME advantage for lowsec where you are so much more exposed ... crazy high investments needed..
was lowsec industry really that OP? is this an attempt to make sov in 0.0 useful again (not sure how that would work)?
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