Player Features and Ideas Discussion

No it is pretty much true. If you are watching local (i.e. not re-watching the last season of Game of Thrones) your chances of being caught are very remote.

Now, I want to be clear though. I am not arguing we should do away this local based on that statement. I am fine with people getting caught because they were not paying attention. I am also fine with somebody getting away because they are paying attention. I find it somewhat sub-optimal in that it tends to be either/or. Either you are paying attention and get away 100% of the time (or close enough to it so that the difference is tiny) or you aren’t and you get caught and die 100% of the time (or close enough to it so that the difference is tiny). I would prefer something a bit more interesting.

Mike is not proposing that. Mike simply wants to nerf cloaks. End of Mike’s narrative. Mike initial came to this discussion decrying how people can’t PvE and how the effort of hundreds of people is being thwarted by a single player. They can’t use their space. And so on and so forth. Over time Mike’s argument has…evolved to, “Cloaks are OP and need to be nerfed. End of discussion.” To support this position Mike relies on the cloaking at a secret safe gives near perfect safety, and lets just go ahead and say it is perfect safety.

However, I have argued that such safety is self-limiting in that I can only maintain it by ensuring others are safe from me. Further, that such safety is not “free” but comes at a cost of whatever other things I could use that character for. Most of my alts can do PI, invention, haul and/or mine. So if I park one of them deep in hostile territory I basically give up the income/resources that alt could generate if he were not cloaked at a safe. Further, that cloaked ships are not OP in that they are generally less robust then their non-cloaking counter-parts and/or do less damage. That cloaked ships die routinely in game. Usually because they are NOT sitting at a secret safe cloaked up. So Mike’s entire narrative hinges critically on a single activity that also implies perfect safety (from the cloaked pilot) in turn.

Mike knows all of these arguments, but he still insists that cloaks are OP and that local is in no way part of the problem with AFK cloaking. In fact, Mike knows this is not true which is why Mike no longer talks about AFK cloaking but cloaks in general.

You aren't hunting if you are at a secret safe spot.

You'd know this if you actually tried hunting in a cloaked ship.

Sonya.... What happens if they don't watch local, stay aligned, and warp out the moment someone enters the system? Pretty much they die. That's because local doesn't provide any measure of safety at all, only the efforts of the player does that. Unlike a cloak that stays perfectly effective until the pilot decides otherwise.

Teckos, you are like a media pundit that assumes if something was said 25 years ago it still applies today. Yes, my argument evolved, because I accepted the arguments of others, including yourself, as valid. As this issue affects me very little other than the logical inconsistency I am perfectly willing to accept arguments that actually make sense. Almost none of yours do. I am pretty sure if you go back you will see me disagreeing with many of those who are anti-cloak as well, for the same reason.

I do not treat this thread as being only about AFK cloaking because any mention of cloaking for any reason in the forums gets immediately locked and sent here. Even in the opening post of this thread they point out that it's a discussion of all cloaking and it's surrounding issues. There's more here than just AFK cloaking, no matter how much you want to keep the focus narrowed on some guy floating in space AFK who can't hurt anyone.

You keep saying the problem is local, because what you want is free reign to pull up alongside soft targets and kill them effortlessly.

You say you are fine with people who aren't paying attention dying... Unless of course that person is in a cloaked ship. Then it's not ok if they die at all unless they choose to engage in risky behavior.

Sure, I suppose my positon is to just nerf cloaks. On a scale of 1(cosmetic effect only) to 10(actual "I Win" button) cloaks are about a 9.4, so any changes advocating for any sort of balance for them are going to be in the direction of a simple nerf.

And what does that nerf consist of? A way for an active player to get on grid with a cloaked ship so that there is at least a chance to run into them. It does not have to be overly cheap or easy, but I'd consider simply making it possible to be a pretty low bar.

Look, if you enter local from a stargate at 0.1 AU to a ratting or mining anomaly, and you warp to said feature, that is a legitimate method of hunting. The argument many people have in this forum is the scenario where instead of entering local (alerting the potential targets), you have already done so hours or weeks ago, and at that point no one knows if you will decloak to pounce on them. The reaction time required is a lot shorter than the usual process of seeing someone new pop into local whether from gate or safe log.

With that in mind, how is someone cloaked not an imminent threat?

And before you all say it..
From page 21 in thread.

So think of it this way friends, the only rebalancing is like an eighteenth century duel, each ship pacing to optimal range and whatnot. I would dive into lore, and throw in some Gurista and Caldari heritage i.e. Japanese proverbs:

Who gets out of the cloaky ambush? The early Worm.

And how can local continue generating ISK? Rat / mine in packs: Neither of two rabbits will be caught by the same one chasing either.

Sidenote: Think of a cloak module as a method of retreat, not a trap to be sprung. If it were otherwise, where you would not appear in local while cloaked, then the tactic becomes clear. For the time being, you have to exploit a form of metagaming where for hours upon end you do nothing until the searchlights have strayed elsewhere. It sounds painful / virtually unplayable for all involved.

Of course it is balanced. You know that a hostile is in system. You know to take extra precautions. Get into the standing fleet. Rat/mine in a group. Use PvP fits. Be on voice comms. See when the player tends to be active.

Yes, a ship with a covert ops cloak has far more control over when to engage, but that does not mean you do not have any options.

491 pages... still nothing.

Because nothing is going to happen. CCP has not shown any sign that they consider AFK cloaking to be a problem, and this thread exist primarily to serve as a trash can for bad ideas and avoid cluttering up the forums with endless variations of "I LOST MY FARMING RAVEN TO A CLOAKER NERF CLOAKING NOW!!!!!!" whines.

Because, when proposing changes, the burden of proof is on the people requesting a change. Good game design means not making changes for the sake of making changes, and "you haven't established that there is a reason to make a change" is all the defense that is required. And it's also a true statement, the entire argument against AFK cloaking comes down to "NULLSEC ISNT 100% SAFE FOR ME TO FARM PVE CONTENT NERF AFK CLOAKING" whines, which is not a position worth considering.

Because you should not get enhanced security--i.e. lower risk. Ratting in NS Is already pretty damn safe if you are on comms, in the standing fleet and paying attention to intel and local.

Everyone who wants to get rid of AFK cloaking wants to do it by nerfing cloaks, not just for those who AFK cloak, but for those who use cloaks ATK. This tells me two things:

1. These people don't give a **** about game balance.
2. These people want less risk.

The first follows from the desire to nerf cloaks in general. But there are more uses for cloaks than just AFK cloaking. Scouts often use cloaking ships. People move small size high value cargo in cloaked ships like T3Cs and blockade runners. Exploration often requires a cloaky. Not to mention ATK hunting with a cloaking ship. So...why should these players have their game degraded so you and Mike can feel safer while acquiring resources?