These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page12
 

Incursions/ "New to" ships
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Sturmwolke
#21 - 2011-09-16 01:53:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Sturmwolke
Daniel Plain wrote:
sanity check: assuming i get fresh into a nightmare with most relevant skills only at 3 or 4, is it a good idea to start running incursions or will i be a hindrance and/or get blown up? (i CAN run cap stable at ~70k buffer with afterburner on)


It'll work, but it'll be mostly meh when compared to other Nightmares with T2 guns.

As for gettting blown up, certainly expect it ... sooner or later. Some people might get lucky and never lose anything, while others are not so fortunate. The risk is highest for new incursion runners, as they have little experience with the details and nuances that goes on in incursions. One important nuance is the ability to distinguish a "fail" fleet or pilot, which will determine how much your ship will be at risk in sites.

Examples :

- if you consistently hit half armor/shields in a Nation Mining Colony (NMC) or even the Nation Commander Outpost (NCO), in an avg BS with rounded resists >70%, your logi squad is shaky. One or more of them are either sleeping, doing something else or just simply inexperienced.
- if a logi does not have you locked for vanguards (i.e. you don't see 3 gold rectangles from fleet), the possible reasons are lack of Multitasking skill L3, dual/triple boxers, inattentive/lazy pilots or fleet exceeds 11 people. You'd want to observe them closer if it's not the latter.
- wreck ownership is a rough gauge that tell dps ship performance and dps pilot skill/attentiveness. More wrecks you own, the better your performance. After some time, you'll be able to tell how each ship class performs against their average - which then you can roughly derive the individual pilot's level of skill and attentiveness.
- if you're in a fleet with a significant percentage of T1 BS (tier 1-2) and T1 BCs, it's a noob fleet.
- if your FC advertises and recruits logis from the local incursion channel regularly, then the FC likes playing with a Russian roulette. Isk is his primary concern, fleet member safety is his secondary.

Take the pains to run standard T1 ships or even logis (keeping costs below 200mil) and explore the environment before pimping out.
Of course you don't need to follow the above, just remember not to rage quit when you lose something in incursions Lol

Edit: Corrected the Multitasking typo to 3 Smile
Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
#22 - 2011-09-16 02:54:32 UTC
Sturmwolke wrote:

- if a logi does not have you locked for vanguards (i.e. you don't see 3 gold rectangles from fleet), the possible reasons are lack of Multitasking skill L5, dual/triple boxers, inattentive/lazy pilots or fleet exceeds 11 people. You'd want to observe them closer if it's not the latter.


Multitasking 3 is enough for 10 targets ;) Minor nitpicking.

And i would add; if the FC is also a logic... warning. I had that once as a logi pilot and had to slave as it seemed he was spending more time tagging targets and talking on the voice then repping. I constantly had to overheat my reppers, and no that shouldnt be needed in a vanguard. Most of the time im half asleep when doing those these days.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#23 - 2011-09-16 15:18:04 UTC
Linda Shadowborn wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
sanity check: assuming i get fresh into a nightmare with most relevant skills only at 3 or 4, is it a good idea to start running incursions or will i be a hindrance and/or get blown up? (i CAN run cap stable at ~70k buffer with afterburner on)


If you have t2 guns, go for it. Yes i know a lot of people fly with t1 guns but me personally i cry when i see it :)


I was actually thinking faction guns for several reasons:
- unlike other faction charges, faction crystals are cheap, so no need to fall back on t2 or even t1 ammo
- faction lasers use less cap than t2
- no need to sink sp into large beam spec (pimp out gunnery and BS skills first)
- you only need four guns, so only ~400mil investment (flying a 1bil hull, it seems kind of reasonable, especially since you don't need an expensive deadspace shield booster)

is there anything wrong with this logic?

I should buy an Ishtar.
Sturmwolke
#24 - 2011-09-16 17:09:39 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
is there anything wrong with this logic?


Yes, dps projection.

Cap isn't a major issue for pulse laser fittings for most of the Amarr/pirate lineups (with a few exceptions of course), so there's really no significant advantage for using faction guns over T1/T2 guns in that aspect. When you fit beam lasers for incursion sniper work (I'm assuming the Paladin), there's almost always one or two mid slot that can be swapped for a cap recharger. Therefore, to a certain extent, cap life can be extended to fall within acceptable parameters (8-10mins cap). This is even more so, with the proper implants plugged in.

Coming back to dps projection, at 150km, the difference in dps between a faction tachyon (with faction Radio/0.023rads) and a T2 tachyon (with T2 Aurora/0.007rads) is about 53% (again assuming the Paladin).
That is simply too massive to ignore. Tracking is non-issue for BS size targets at that range, so nearly all that Aurora dps is fully applied. If you really need to get down into the numbers, the difference in to-hit chance is between 0-6% for 0-400 m/s transversal respectively@150km /450 sig radius. Almost negligible.

The same also applies to pulse lasers. Ships like the Absolution and Legion absolutely DEPEND on T2 Scorch to project their dps > 20km in all sites. Your BS will never be able to fill the mid-range dps (0-60km) roles for assaults & higher , nor would it be able to compete effectively in 2/3 vanguard sites.

In short, faction guns only gives you a measly 4-5% dps blanket increase over T1 guns at a disproportionate cost.
You may pimp them, but T2 guns will always be favoured for incursions.

P.S The case with missiles is different, but we're not discussing missiles. Smile
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#25 - 2011-09-16 20:08:55 UTC
Sturmwolke wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
is there anything wrong with this logic?


Yes, dps projection.

Cap isn't a major issue for pulse laser fittings for most of the Amarr/pirate lineups (with a few exceptions of course), so there's really no significant advantage for using faction guns over T1/T2 guns in that aspect. When you fit beam lasers for incursion sniper work (I'm assuming the Paladin), there's almost always one or two mid slot that can be swapped for a cap recharger. Therefore, to a certain extent, cap life can be extended to fall within acceptable parameters (8-10mins cap). This is even more so, with the proper implants plugged in.

Coming back to dps projection, at 150km, the difference in dps between a faction tachyon (with faction Radio/0.023rads) and a T2 tachyon (with T2 Aurora/0.007rads) is about 53% (again assuming the Paladin).
That is simply too massive to ignore. Tracking is non-issue for BS size targets at that range, so nearly all that Aurora dps is fully applied. If you really need to get down into the numbers, the difference in to-hit chance is between 0-6% for 0-400 m/s transversal respectively@150km /450 sig radius. Almost negligible.

The same also applies to pulse lasers. Ships like the Absolution and Legion absolutely DEPEND on T2 Scorch to project their dps > 20km in all sites. Your BS will never be able to fill the mid-range dps (0-60km) roles for assaults & higher , nor would it be able to compete effectively in 2/3 vanguard sites.

In short, faction guns only gives you a measly 4-5% dps blanket increase over T1 guns at a disproportionate cost.
You may pimp them, but T2 guns will always be favoured for incursions.

P.S The case with missiles is different, but we're not discussing missiles. Smile


thanks for clarifying, one more question though: when fighting at around 20km, why use pulse with scorch instead of beam with faction multi?

I should buy an Ishtar.
Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
#26 - 2011-09-16 21:16:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Linda Shadowborn
Daniel Plain wrote:
thanks for clarifying, one more question though: when fighting at around 20km, why use pulse with scorch instead of beam with faction multi?


Tracking. Remember incursion NPCs motor around like mad. Yes i know we all carry webs on our ships but webs take a little moment to get the sansha ships down to speeds where beams/tachs can hit them. Pulses will hit much faster.

The option of swapping ammo to t2 crystals is just that incredibly good as previous posted so well :)

If we talk mega beams (faction in your case) with imp navy multi we talk oh 800dps out of a rather standard mare (with all level V for comparisons sake) (didnt mention tachs due to the tracking issues in a vanguard but it would be 860 dps but with low tracking.. really low)

Now pulses at the same range (using multi 20 km is great multi freq range for them) is 960 with so much more tracking that you are hitting for much higher numbers. Now if we use scorch 770. sure less then the mega beams but with much higher tracking so.. again we are applying that damage so well.

Pulse 2 on my incursion mightmare have 20+18 (optimal falloff) meaning multifrequence is basically used all the time in vanguards. Only rarely do i need to use scorch. Now if we talk the other sites well then its a matter of yes. tachs can be used to great effect for sniping duty. But as previous posted said, aurora is just so good there :)
Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#27 - 2011-09-16 21:27:09 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Sturmwolke wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
is there anything wrong with this logic?


Yes, dps projection.

Cap isn't a major issue for pulse laser fittings for most of the Amarr/pirate lineups (with a few exceptions of course), so there's really no significant advantage for using faction guns over T1/T2 guns in that aspect. When you fit beam lasers for incursion sniper work (I'm assuming the Paladin), there's almost always one or two mid slot that can be swapped for a cap recharger. Therefore, to a certain extent, cap life can be extended to fall within acceptable parameters (8-10mins cap). This is even more so, with the proper implants plugged in.

Coming back to dps projection, at 150km, the difference in dps between a faction tachyon (with faction Radio/0.023rads) and a T2 tachyon (with T2 Aurora/0.007rads) is about 53% (again assuming the Paladin).
That is simply too massive to ignore. Tracking is non-issue for BS size targets at that range, so nearly all that Aurora dps is fully applied. If you really need to get down into the numbers, the difference in to-hit chance is between 0-6% for 0-400 m/s transversal respectively@150km /450 sig radius. Almost negligible.

The same also applies to pulse lasers. Ships like the Absolution and Legion absolutely DEPEND on T2 Scorch to project their dps > 20km in all sites. Your BS will never be able to fill the mid-range dps (0-60km) roles for assaults & higher , nor would it be able to compete effectively in 2/3 vanguard sites.

In short, faction guns only gives you a measly 4-5% dps blanket increase over T1 guns at a disproportionate cost.
You may pimp them, but T2 guns will always be favoured for incursions.

P.S The case with missiles is different, but we're not discussing missiles. Smile


thanks for clarifying, one more question though: when fighting at around 20km, why use pulse with scorch instead of beam with faction multi?


Tracking, tracking tracking!

The frigs you'll be fighting at 0-20 km will have super speed and are difficult at best to track with Large sized guns. Not to mention not every fleet you'll be in will have 2 double webbed vindicators slowing them to a crawl. In most average fleets I've been a part of the velocity of those frigs gets into the 70-120 m/s range.

Long story short: the Pulse Lasers will track WAY better than the Beam lasers, which is what you'll want if you're in the 20 km range

Ced

Cedric
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#28 - 2011-09-16 21:35:51 UTC
hm, could've figured it out myself couldn't I? thynks a lot for all the replys. i guess the next couple weeks are for skilling large lasers then....

I should buy an Ishtar.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2011-09-17 01:49:51 UTC
Use megapulse with faction multi. T2 guns not mandatory. It's more dps and doesn't suffer scorch's tracking penalty. ~20km is where all the frigs gets hit with velocity bonused webs in a good gang. You'll probably do better hitting those instead of further targets anyway. With lasers, you've already got longer range than the blaster people. Might as well work in the same range as everyone else.
Isan'na
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2011-09-17 01:52:03 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Use megapulse with faction multi. T2 guns not mandatory. It's more dps and doesn't suffer scorch's tracking penalty. ~20km is where all the frigs gets hit with velocity bonused webs in a good gang. You'll probably do better hitting those instead of further targets anyway. With lasers, you've already got longer range than the blaster people. Might as well work in the same range as everyone else.


That wizzing sound is the point flying right by over your head. Scorch is for when everything that spawns 70km away is closing in on you.
Previous page12