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a few suggestions

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Phillip Hastings
Doomheim
#1 - 2017-06-04 15:17:53 UTC
OK been on game for a while now and play many other space based games. This one has been around a long time and good for you, but..there are some things that I find odd here. Like: drones for offense work great np..but when I asked online why ships can carry up to 25 at a time and we can only use 5 max, I was told that when drones get destroyed you replace them out of your bay instead of returning to a station to get more. OK...but...I used drones dozens of times, did missions, and killed npcs, and NEVER lost a drone, ever. I used them for different races when they were allowed, and in game missions, and out when hunting npc pirates. I had a destroyer carrying a full load, for that ship, and never replaced a single drone because in normal use...they never get lost, ever.

Also, frigates use a few different weapons, destroyers are mostly gunboats which makes sense. But cruisers are supposed to be heavy hitters, and every one I've seen, at least in Tech 1 ships, are really under gunned. A cruiser with only 3 guns and no missile tubes? Really? Heavier arrmor for sure, but of course, less speed so shields have to make it up, but drone bays up to 125 m3? Why? you will never use them..trust me. In space down to .5 I've hunted for days gathered entire ships full of loot, including more drones, and never had to replace one.Was told (with a snicker) when I asked in game why such a large bay when you never need them, and was told ....balance??...Because they didnt know either and its too hard to ask I guess.

Nice game, good graphics, nice detail..not balanced as far as I am concerned. Also my character is Alpha, and will stay that way..if this is only in tech 1 ships then it makes sense, got to punish the free players...but I doubt it is.Like the game, and the looks of a few ships, But balanced? Sorry, not in the lower levels it doesn't seem.
Imasupa
Doomheim
#2 - 2017-06-04 15:21:52 UTC
Phillip Hastings wrote:
OK been on game for a while now and play many other space based games. This one has been around a long time and good for you, but..there are some things that I find odd here. Like: drones for offense work great np..but when I asked online why ships can carry up to 25 at a time and we can only use 5 max, I was told that when drones get destroyed you replace them out of your bay instead of returning to a station to get more. OK...but...I used drones dozens of times, did missions, and killed npcs, and NEVER lost a drone, ever. I used them for different races when they were allowed, and in game missions, and out when hunting npc pirates. I had a destroyer carrying a full load, for that ship, and never replaced a single drone because in normal use...they never get lost, ever.

Also, frigates use a few different weapons, destroyers are mostly gunboats which makes sense. But cruisers are supposed to be heavy hitters, and every one I've seen, at least in Tech 1 ships, are really under gunned. A cruiser with only 3 guns and no missile tubes? Really? Heavier arrmor for sure, but of course, less speed so shields have to make it up, but drone bays up to 125 m3? Why? you will never use them..trust me. In space down to .5 I've hunted for days gathered entire ships full of loot, including more drones, and never had to replace one.Was told (with a snicker) when I asked in game why such a large bay when you never need them, and was told ....balance??...Because they didnt know either and its too hard to ask I guess.

Nice game, good graphics, nice detail..not balanced as far as I am concerned. Also my character is Alpha, and will stay that way..if this is only in tech 1 ships then it makes sense, got to punish the free players...but I doubt it is.Like the game, and the looks of a few ships, But balanced? Sorry, not in the lower levels it doesn't seem.




*Sees wall of text, no tl;dr*

Moves on.
Skorpynekomimi
#3 - 2017-06-04 15:33:24 UTC
How long have you been playing for that you think you can dictate game balance?

Economic PVP
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#4 - 2017-06-04 16:09:19 UTC
It looks to me like your primary thing is ratting and missions.

These are a small part of the things you can do and are not a primary balance concern. CCP is trying to balance PVP which is the reason most of us play. Come back in a year, after experiencing more of what the game has to offer, and see if you feel the same way.

Mr Epeen Cool
Lothros Andastar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2017-06-04 17:33:49 UTC
If you don't like it go back to Hello Kitty Online. That is more your speed.
Felyx Ravencroft
#6 - 2017-06-04 18:23:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Felyx Ravencroft
Phillip Hastings wrote:
-stuff- .


OK, I'm not going to respond to game balance issues - I've only been playing about half a year, so I don't consider myself qualified to make fundamental judgements. However, as an extensive drone user, I will reply to your questions/remarks about drone bays:

Drone bays are much larger than the maximum bandwidth (at least in the case of dedicated drone-boats) in order to provide options and nuances. As an Alpha-only player, your experience with drones will be limited to, at the most, medium drones. However, in addition to heavy combat drones and sentry drones (EACH of which occupies a hefty 25m3 of bay storage), you also get salvager drones, a range of support drones (shield and armour repairers etc), and electronic warfare drones (webbers, jammers, painters - you name it.)

Personally, I tend not to use anything other than straight-up combat drones (either sentries or heavies, plus some lighter drones for close-quarters situations) and a flight of salvagers, at least not in PvE activity (which is the VAST majority of my time), and yet I STILL often wish I had more room in my 375m3 drone bay on my Dominix, my 400m3 drone bay on my Stratios, or (soon) the 500m3 bay in my (upcoming) Nestor. (You mention 125m3 drone-bays as being vast? Well, when using only drones that take up 5 or 10 cubes each that's hardly surprising.) The reason for this is because, depending on how you are deployed, how the enemy attacks you, how the situation changes, you may need to switch between drone types mid-combat - and if another player engages you while you are busy, you may need to switch to something appropriate for dealing with that situation. Furthermore, given how enemies have differing resistance profiles, you also need to bring the right tools for the job on any given occasion, or at least develop an effective generalised mix (which takes up a lot of space.) You may well not have experienced this because, unless you are doing level 3 missions at the very least, you can simply brute-force your way through without regard for enemy resistances. By the time you reach level 4 missions, you pretty much HAVE to match your damage types to the enemy's resistance vulnerabilities, otherwise you will struggle inordinately, and it will take you much longer to complete missions than it ought to. Also, if you don't travel around a lot, you may be encountering mostly a limited range of enemy factions - but once you start operating throughout the EVE universe, you will find that you are constantly running up against different enemies (unless you specifically specialise, for whatever reason.)

To me, the game's ship balance seems (mostly) internally consistent. It is a fairly complex multidimensional system, rather than a simple linear "zero-to-hero" progression. Also, more "powerful" (or at least, expensive) ships are intended to be used with more advanced skills, and not merely those required to get into the driver's seat in the first place, or to mount appropriate weapons. Also, PLAYER skills are VERY significant...

EDIT: Oh, and you mention how you are not ever losing drones - expect that to change, eventually. As you go up in the tiers of enemies you face, you will start encountering enemies (such as elite frigates) that very specifically target your drones, and quite effectively, even able to consistently hit your light drones, which are usually well protected by their speed and small signature. As you use larger drones, they get both slower and bigger, thus easier to hit - I even occasionally have enemy BATTLESHIPS manage to land hits on my heavy drones, and as for sentries - well, they're stationary, so if enemies are allowed to get too close, they will sometimes start hitting the sentries, too.

CONCLUSION: You have drawn way too many and too broad conclusions from an EXTREMELY limited experiential data-set. As some others have suggested, I would recommend playing more (assuming you are enjoying the game, that is, of course), experiencing more both depth- and breadth-wise, learning more, and discovering those nuances that open up as you advance.

Happy hunting! :)
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#7 - 2017-06-04 19:46:08 UTC
in response to the " why only 5 drones at a time?" question. the answer can simply be down to reduction in load on the servers.

back in " ye ol day" you could field 15 light drones in an arbitrator and up to 10 drones from most other things. now 1 ship fielding 10 drones isnt really much of a problem. but now go out to a fleet fight and multiply those 10 drones by about 800 or so, now send the data of each and every one of those drones to each and every one of those players that are currantly on the field. you can see why limiting them can be benificial to everyone.
April rabbit
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2017-06-04 20:13:56 UTC
Phillip Hastings wrote:
I had a destroyer carrying a full load, for that ship, and never replaced a single drone because in normal use...they never get lost, ever.

Well... At some point (it was 2010 if i'm not mistaken) i really didn't see any point of T2 drones because i used to lose 1-2 every misson Shocked

So i guess you start better than me Lol

However the point of really big drone bays to have bigger choice of drones without need to dock. Sometime it is not enough at all.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#9 - 2017-06-04 20:33:22 UTC
So you feel you're not getting your $0/mo out of the game?
Cedille Mureau
Institute of Archaeology
#10 - 2017-06-04 20:43:00 UTC
Lothros Andastar wrote:
If you don't like it go back to Hello Kitty Online. That is more your speed.

Wow.

Welcome to EVE newbie!

This is not a good way of encouraging the newer players to comment and discuss things that might confuse or puzzle them.

OK, GD might not be the epitome of reasoned or measured debate but this sort of post does a disservice to everyone who has the best interest of EVE at heart.

As you can see I don't post much but this just rubbed me up the wrong way.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#11 - 2017-06-04 20:57:17 UTC
Phillip Hastings wrote:
OK been on game for a while now and play many other space based games. This one has been around a long time and good for you, but..there are some things that I find odd here. Like: drones for offense work great np..but when I asked online why ships can carry up to 25 at a time and we can only use 5 max, I was told that when drones get destroyed you replace them out of your bay instead of returning to a station to get more. OK...but...I used drones dozens of times, did missions, and killed npcs, and NEVER lost a drone, ever. I used them for different races when they were allowed, and in game missions, and out when hunting npc pirates. I had a destroyer carrying a full load, for that ship, and never replaced a single drone because in normal use...they never get lost, ever.

Also, frigates use a few different weapons, destroyers are mostly gunboats which makes sense. But cruisers are supposed to be heavy hitters, and every one I've seen, at least in Tech 1 ships, are really under gunned. A cruiser with only 3 guns and no missile tubes? Really? Heavier arrmor for sure, but of course, less speed so shields have to make it up, but drone bays up to 125 m3? Why? you will never use them..trust me. In space down to .5 I've hunted for days gathered entire ships full of loot, including more drones, and never had to replace one.Was told (with a snicker) when I asked in game why such a large bay when you never need them, and was told ....balance??...Because they didnt know either and its too hard to ask I guess.

Nice game, good graphics, nice detail..not balanced as far as I am concerned. Also my character is Alpha, and will stay that way..if this is only in tech 1 ships then it makes sense, got to punish the free players...but I doubt it is.Like the game, and the looks of a few ships, But balanced? Sorry, not in the lower levels it doesn't seem.



You haven't had near enough experience with anything or done enough to form an opinion. you'd understand why drones work the way they did if you were involved in higher level activities that shred drones, or did some pvp and had to warp off and leave drones etc.

There are 2 kinds of newish players, those that learn (and who understand that there is so much they don't know) and those who form opinions too quickly. Be the former, not the latter.
Vortexo VonBrenner
Doomheim
#12 - 2017-06-04 22:22:00 UTC
Dearest OP,

Alpha clone players are far from the only ones who fly T1 ships. Probably very much the minority of T1 ship users, I would guess.

125m3 is not a huge drone bay.

Upgrade to an Omega clone and after a year or two review your post here. You will see why you were mistaken.



Love,

your Vorty




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Suren Scott
Extra-galactic Cooperative
#13 - 2017-06-05 00:24:24 UTC
These have already been touched on but I hope this is a more concise form/more concrete example of the answers that gives you some perspective.

Drones:

If you're ratting in high sec, you probably won't lose drones mid-fight. In null sec, it's more likely to lose the occasional drone or two but even then, not often unless you screw up aggro. You can even set up folders for drones, deploy Folder A with light drones, when a certain type of wave spawns to recall and deploy Folder B for medium drones, etc. Or have folders with different damage types (each enemy group deals mostly one thing, and has a "hole" against a particular damage type). And of course, PVP, there will be calls for certain fleet members to clear drones, or the fleet will be smart bomb fit which will wreck fields of drones.

Cruisers:

There are different types of cruisers. Some have many turret and/or launcher slots, others are meant for other roles like logistics (providing reps to other player ships) or EWAR (jamming or damping an enemy). Those that have weapon slots, even if it's fewer slots than a destroyer, they usually hit harder but slower. Bigger alpha strike damage, lower DPS. Generally, each faction has: a primary weapon cruiser, a logi cruiser, an EWAR cruiser, and a tanky cruiser.

Balance:

I'm just going to call out a few examples and hope they set off some lightbulbs. Like, the Gallente Vexor usually isn't fitted with any weapons of its own, just lots of drones, even though I think it has two turret slots. People have also come up with interesting ways to use ships together, in ways that they are barely (if at all) functional solo but defy physics when used in a fleet. Cap chaining, using ships like the Caldari Osprey that transmit capacitor more than they consume, and giving that cap to another Osprey, as long as the cap chain is stable, they can have whatever modules active that they want (usually shield reps). I wouldn't have guessed using a ship like that until I saw it in action.
Alasdan Helminthauge
AirHogs
Hogs Collective
#14 - 2017-06-05 01:30:06 UTC
Phillip Hastings wrote:
But cruisers are supposed to be heavy hitters, and every one I've seen, at least in Tech 1 ships, are really under gunned. A cruiser with only 3 guns and no missile tubes?


What cruiser are you talking about? I think most combat cruisers have 5 guns/missiles (or 4 for the Vexor and minmatar ships).
Cade Windstalker
#15 - 2017-06-05 02:07:05 UTC
The game is actually quite well balanced, especially at the smaller ship levels, which you'll learn if you play it more.

First off, you will lose drones in PvP. A lot.

Second you will switch drones in PvP fairly frequently as well, and in PvE as well for some of the harder stuff.

Also 125m3 of drone bay space isn't that much. It's enough for exactly one flight of Heavy Drones, which take 25m3 each while Light Drones only take 5m3 (and mediums take 10m3). Also smaller drones take less NPC aggro. If you use larger drones you'll see them take aggro more often.

Oh and it sounds like you're using a Vexor, with Light Drones, and using it as a gun boat. That's a mistake, the bonuses on the hull are primarily drone focused, the guns are an afterthought. Use Heavy Drones on it and fit it for tank, drone application, and drone damage and you'll do pretty well as an Alpha Clone player.

If you want to actually learn more about the game and how to fly various ships Eve Uni has a large selection of class recording on the Uni Wiki, and there are various Youtube Videos available as well.
Felyx Ravencroft
#16 - 2017-06-05 04:27:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Felyx Ravencroft
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Use Heavy Drones on it and fit it for tank, drone application, and drone damage and you'll do pretty well as an Alpha Clone player.

Unfortunately, this won't work for the OP, or any Alpha - Alphas can use only up to medium drones, they don't get access beyond that, to heavy and sentry drones (so a Vexor in Alpha hands HAS to be used as a balanced drone/gun-boat - and I haven't even tried to use a VNI the way an Alpha might have to - I doubt it's even viable.) I only bother to mention this to forestall a potential misconception (and possible source of frustration/annoyance/disappointment) for the OP, because other than that, your basic premise is sound, of course (and the tanking and drone emphasis all hold true as well, of course.)
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2017-06-05 06:01:33 UTC
Felyx Ravencroft wrote:
Phillip Hastings wrote:
-stuff- .


OK, I'm not going to respond to game balance issues - I've only been playing about half a year, so I don't consider myself qualified to make fundamental judgements. However, as an extensive drone user, I will reply to your questions/remarks about drone bays:

Drone bays are much larger than the maximum bandwidth (at least in the case of dedicated drone-boats) in order to provide options and nuances. As an Alpha-only player, your experience with drones will be limited to, at the most, medium drones. However, in addition to heavy combat drones and sentry drones (EACH of which occupies a hefty 25m3 of bay storage), you also get salvager drones, a range of support drones (shield and armour repairers etc), and electronic warfare drones (webbers, jammers, painters - you name it.)

Personally, I tend not to use anything other than straight-up combat drones (either sentries or heavies, plus some lighter drones for close-quarters situations) and a flight of salvagers, at least not in PvE activity (which is the VAST majority of my time), and yet I STILL often wish I had more room in my 375m3 drone bay on my Dominix, my 400m3 drone bay on my Stratios, or (soon) the 500m3 bay in my (upcoming) Nestor. (You mention 125m3 drone-bays as being vast? Well, when using only drones that take up 5 or 10 cubes each that's hardly surprising.) The reason for this is because, depending on how you are deployed, how the enemy attacks you, how the situation changes, you may need to switch between drone types mid-combat - and if another player engages you while you are busy, you may need to switch to something appropriate for dealing with that situation. Furthermore, given how enemies have differing resistance profiles, you also need to bring the right tools for the job on any given occasion, or at least develop an effective generalised mix (which takes up a lot of space.) You may well not have experienced this because, unless you are doing level 3 missions at the very least, you can simply brute-force your way through without regard for enemy resistances. By the time you reach level 4 missions, you pretty much HAVE to match your damage types to the enemy's resistance vulnerabilities, otherwise you will struggle inordinately, and it will take you much longer to complete missions than it ought to. Also, if you don't travel around a lot, you may be encountering mostly a limited range of enemy factions - but once you start operating throughout the EVE universe, you will find that you are constantly running up against different enemies (unless you specifically specialise, for whatever reason.)

To me, the game's ship balance seems (mostly) internally consistent. It is a fairly complex multidimensional system, rather than a simple linear "zero-to-hero" progression. Also, more "powerful" (or at least, expensive) ships are intended to be used with more advanced skills, and not merely those required to get into the driver's seat in the first place, or to mount appropriate weapons. Also, PLAYER skills are VERY significant...

EDIT: Oh, and you mention how you are not ever losing drones - expect that to change, eventually. As you go up in the tiers of enemies you face, you will start encountering enemies (such as elite frigates) that very specifically target your drones, and quite effectively, even able to consistently hit your light drones, which are usually well protected by their speed and small signature. As you use larger drones, they get both slower and bigger, thus easier to hit - I even occasionally have enemy BATTLESHIPS manage to land hits on my heavy drones, and as for sentries - well, they're stationary, so if enemies are allowed to get too close, they will sometimes start hitting the sentries, too.

CONCLUSION: You have drawn way too many and too broad conclusions from an EXTREMELY limited experiential data-set. As some others have suggested, I would recommend playing more (assuming you are enjoying the game, that is, of course), experiencing more both depth- and breadth-wise, learning more, and discovering those nuances that open up as you advance.

Happy hunting! :)

Very good answer and pretty much the only answer appropriate to the OP's question.


DMC

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#18 - 2017-06-05 07:18:25 UTC
Phillip Hastings wrote:
OK been on game for a while now and play many other space based games. This one has been around a long time and good for you, but..there are some things that I find odd here. Like: drones for offense work great np..but when I asked online why ships can carry up to 25 at a time and we can only use 5 max, I was told that when drones get destroyed you replace them out of your bay instead of returning to a station to get more. OK...but...I used drones dozens of times, did missions, and killed npcs, and NEVER lost a drone, ever. I used them for different races when they were allowed, and in game missions, and out when hunting npc pirates. I had a destroyer carrying a full load, for that ship, and never replaced a single drone because in normal use...they never get lost, ever.

Also, frigates use a few different weapons, destroyers are mostly gunboats which makes sense. But cruisers are supposed to be heavy hitters, and every one I've seen, at least in Tech 1 ships, are really under gunned. A cruiser with only 3 guns and no missile tubes? Really? Heavier arrmor for sure, but of course, less speed so shields have to make it up, but drone bays up to 125 m3? Why? you will never use them..trust me. In space down to .5 I've hunted for days gathered entire ships full of loot, including more drones, and never had to replace one.Was told (with a snicker) when I asked in game why such a large bay when you never need them, and was told ....balance??...Because they didnt know either and its too hard to ask I guess.

Nice game, good graphics, nice detail..not balanced as far as I am concerned. Also my character is Alpha, and will stay that way..if this is only in tech 1 ships then it makes sense, got to punish the free players...but I doubt it is.Like the game, and the looks of a few ships, But balanced? Sorry, not in the lower levels it doesn't seem.


You do complain a lot but I do not see you making any suggestions.
Cade Windstalker
#19 - 2017-06-05 12:23:41 UTC
Felyx Ravencroft wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Use Heavy Drones on it and fit it for tank, drone application, and drone damage and you'll do pretty well as an Alpha Clone player.

Unfortunately, this won't work for the OP, or any Alpha - Alphas can use only up to medium drones, they don't get access beyond that, to heavy and sentry drones (so a Vexor in Alpha hands HAS to be used as a balanced drone/gun-boat - and I haven't even tried to use a VNI the way an Alpha might have to - I doubt it's even viable.) I only bother to mention this to forestall a potential misconception (and possible source of frustration/annoyance/disappointment) for the OP, because other than that, your basic premise is sound, of course (and the tanking and drone emphasis all hold true as well, of course.)


Ah, I stand corrected.

Still, OP is apparently still using Light Drones, which is an extremely poor choice on a Vexor at any skill level except for peeling Frigates off you.
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#20 - 2017-06-05 12:47:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Gimme Sake
In the past players used, as a pvp exploit, to fleet deploy a very large amount of drones causing the game to lag and cause other players to disconnect. Hope that answers your question.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
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