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"Boss" missions
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Teras Lakkos
SuperMassive Torque
#1 - 2012-01-24 00:16:08 UTC
Currently misions are a rather boring slaughter of red crosses with little thought with the right ship and skills.

The Idea: Boss fights.

Simply put the bosses would exhibit much better tank and dps with combinations of ewar tactics and orbiting and the such. The missions could be gated and restricted to zero/one/two/etc possible fleetmates. On the plus side these fights could prep people better for actual pvp. There could be multiple bosses or secondary ships that provide support (ewar, reps etc)

Also, these fights should be above level 4 in that they should be difficult with the very real chance of losing the fight.
Could put them in hisec with even better ones offered in low or something.
Xandralkus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-01-24 00:20:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Xandralkus
Better yet, let's actually make mission rats entertaining and challenging. Instead of a sea of red crosses, let's have a lvl 4 mission contain four or five powerful ships. Unpredictable and random reinforcement spawns could go a long way toward making missions entertaining.

I fully support fleets of NPC ships that rep, cap-transfer, tracking boost, and use various non-racial Ewar types.

Eve UI wouldn't suck if CCP allowed UI addons.
Amaroq Dricaldari
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2012-01-24 00:48:33 UTC
Xandralkus wrote:
Better yet, let's actually make mission rats entertaining and challenging. Instead of a sea of red crosses, let's have a lvl 4 mission contain four or five powerful ships. Unpredictable and random reinforcement spawns could go a long way toward making missions entertaining.

I fully support fleets of NPC ships that rep, cap-transfer, tracking boost, and use various non-racial Ewar types.


Supported.

Also, I like your signature. I was actually going to make a thread about that.

This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Teras Lakkos
SuperMassive Torque
#4 - 2012-01-24 01:07:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Teras Lakkos
A mission where you have to fight a couple tough ships with random ewar and sleeper+ ai would make for some fun times.... and blown up ships.

edit: anyways my point is make harder missions by getting harder enemies not more easy enemies.
Kolya Medz
Kolya Inc.
#5 - 2012-01-24 05:05:00 UTC
+1 as long as these mission rats have web/scram fitted. It would be nice to see missions that were more pvp like.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#6 - 2012-01-24 05:28:30 UTC
Boss rats need to web, scram, neut, microwarpdrive around to try and stay at optimal and warp off when they're in structure if you don't warp disrupt them causing you to fail the mission.

That'd keep people sharp.
Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-01-24 06:48:58 UTC
EVE has boss rats. They were nerfed out of missions and high sec because they pay out too well.
Isabelle Evotori
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-01-24 09:03:08 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Boss rats need to web, scram, neut, microwarpdrive around to try and stay at optimal and warp off when they're in structure if you don't warp disrupt them causing you to fail the mission.

That'd keep people sharp.



this. they should react more natural. as if a person was controlling them.
Now it is more like kamikaze. or dumb down drones that shoot until they die.
Xandralkus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-01-24 10:34:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Xandralkus
I wouldn't make it to where you fail the mission completely if the boss rats warp off. Perhaps severely damaging them and forcing a retreat (mission-wise) is almost as good as destroying the ship? Obviously, you wouldn't get the wicked-sweet bounty off of a boss-rat that GTFO'd.

And yes, let's make mission rats RR, neut, nos, web, TP, ECM, TD, scram/disrupt, deploy drones, and bubble. AB, MWD, and warpout are all fair game for mission rats too. Hell, let's extend that to ALL rats, including belt rats.

And on an unrelated topic, I like my signature too. It's one thing for Eve UI to be bad - but it's quite another to make it bad AND allow us no alternatives.

Eve UI wouldn't suck if CCP allowed UI addons.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#10 - 2012-01-24 12:33:29 UTC
Don't they have boss rats? Just not in high sec?

I mean there's that angel mining facility thing escalation, the last guy on that nearly took out my T3. Or the tower at the end of some of the 10/10 complexes, now that's pretty tough.

Trouble with adding similar "boss rats" to high sec, is that you can't increase the reward to match. It's also ridiculously easy to just gank them with alts. I mean in null getting 2-3 pimped ships into a site a blitzing the 10/10 is a bit of a challenge, but in high sec... hell, you could just run one after the other.

Or do you mean semi-difficult boss rats with low pay out to match? In which case, what's the point? People will just bring bigger ships and it's back to easy mode.

tl;dr : if you want bosses, do low/null exploration where how pimped your ship is (and how many of them you have) is limited by the likelihood of you getting ganked.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Teras Lakkos
SuperMassive Torque
#11 - 2012-01-24 17:36:17 UTC
The overseer bosses you are talking about still aren't very interesting and usually just have a bunch of backup and an improved tank. We want complicated combinations of ewar, dps, tank and scram even at bs size ships. Something dangerous that doesnt have to drop billion isk loot, just some mission reward. Also, mentioning the "gank" factor should be a non issue: gate only lets one ship in ( or more depending on difficulty). CCP should jump on it, I can only imagine the number of ships popped trying them.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#12 - 2012-01-24 17:47:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Teras Lakkos wrote:
The overseer bosses you are talking about still aren't very interesting and usually just have a bunch of backup and an improved tank. We want complicated combinations of ewar, dps, tank and scram even at bs size ships. Something dangerous that doesnt have to drop billion isk loot, just some mission reward.

True, without an incentive to do these missions though they would probably be largely ignored. Especially given the risk. And it is hard to balance that risk so that everyone from pimped marauders to t1 battleships could run them, without them simply become easy ISK farming exercises for the more expensive ships.

Your point on ewar also raises another issue, some rats employ this now. It is mostly just annoying. And assuming these rats also vary from strong active tank through buffer, e-war, webs and kiting fits. How do you fit a ship to combat them? Is the opponents fit hinted at in the mission text? In that case people would just develop a cookie cutter for each opponent, swap fits then go blitz it.

If not, then when you warp in it is very likely that a large percentage of the time your opponent NPC will have a counter to whatever you chose to bring. In my experience mission runners do not enjoy being blown up, especially not when it is outside of their control.

Teras Lakkos wrote:
Also, mentioning the "gank" factor should be a non issue: gate only lets one ship in ( or more depending on difficulty). CCP should jump on it, I can only imagine the number of ships popped trying them

I think this is something CCP have intentionally avoided in the past, I have never heard of any kind of gate which only allows a single person through. Even complexes have tags which can be purchased on the market to bypass locked rooms, or rooms are unlocked for all if it's tied to NPC destruction.

I would hazard a guess that their reasoning is something along the lines of them approving of ninja looters, because CCP are evil like that. But this also makes mission runners immune to war decs, and whilst I hate high sec wars this is not a plus IMHO.

*EDIT: Also, some of the overseers/rooms are actually quite difficult, even when dual boxing in multi-billion ISK ships. I know a guy who had his Golem insta-popped in the blood 10/10, oh how I wish I'd been there to loot and salvage his wreck.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Err0r404
Engineered Dynamics Limited
#13 - 2012-01-24 17:51:21 UTC
or just fix "storyline" missions
Xandralkus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-01-24 21:54:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Xandralkus
Simi Kusoni wrote:
In my experience mission runners do not enjoy being blown up, especially not when it is outside of their control.


Free & easy ISK should not exist anywhere in game, including highsec missions and incursions. There's already a "Make incursions epic and genuinely dangerous" thread floating around. Running around doing lvl-4's needs to carry at least some risk of a boss rat spawning.

How to make boss rats genuinely threatening to both pimped Marauders and ordinary battleships:

Boss rat MWD's to dictate range. I've overwhelmingly found that most viable mission-fits are long-range sniper-type ships. With an MWD and a strong buffer tank, a boss rat could easily close in on a mission runner that's not equipped with an MWD or a warpscram. Short-range, heavy-tanking mission runners would have to contend with long-range, MWD'ing sniper boss rats.

Also, on a semi-related note - I got neuted by two blood raider ships FROM 90 KM OUT. Mission rat stasis webbers have similarly absurd range. And I once saw an interceptor-rat, which kept me warpscrammed until I afterburned far enough as to be off-grid. Either bring mission ewar range in line with that available to players, or put some of those sweet infinite-range Ewar modules on the market for us.

Eve UI wouldn't suck if CCP allowed UI addons.
SketS47
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-01-24 21:56:34 UTC
Xandralkus wrote:
Better yet, let's actually make mission rats entertaining and challenging. Instead of a sea of red crosses, let's have a lvl 4 mission contain four or five powerful ships. Unpredictable and random reinforcement spawns could go a long way toward making missions entertaining.

I fully support fleets of NPC ships that rep, cap-transfer, tracking boost, and use various non-racial Ewar types.



+1
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#16 - 2012-01-24 22:05:43 UTC
Xandralkus wrote:
Free & easy ISK should not exist anywhere in game, including highsec missions and incursions. There's already a "Make incursions epic and genuinely dangerous" thread floating around. Running around doing lvl-4's needs to carry at least some risk of a boss rat spawning.

No, but these are high sec missions. Unless you want the payouts buffed, the risk should stay the same. If you up the payouts, again you risk creating another massive high sec ISK faucet. Something the player base is not going to be happy about, I'm sure you've seen the existing threads on incursions.

On the other hand, by not increasing payouts you just have harder level fours for no extra gain. What you want sound a lot to me like solo incursions. Initially very difficult bosses that people will learn to run incredibly easily.

Xandralkus wrote:
Boss rat MWD's to dictate range. I've overwhelmingly found that most viable mission-fits are long-range sniper-type ships. With an MWD and a strong buffer tank, a boss rat could easily close in on a mission runner that's not equipped with an MWD or a warpscram. Short-range, heavy-tanking mission runners would have to contend with long-range, MWD'ing sniper boss rats.

This is my point, the boss rat is now a single enemy type that could kill an artillery fit sniper. But people will just refit and start using 800mm Machariels with a netural basi support. Failing that, couple of spider tanking domis?

Xandralkus wrote:
Also, on a semi-related note - I got neuted by two blood raider ships FROM 90 KM OUT. Mission rat stasis webbers have similarly absurd range. And I once saw an interceptor-rat, which kept me warpscrammed until I afterburned far enough as to be off-grid. Either bring mission ewar range in line with that available to players, or put some of those sweet infinite-range Ewar modules on the market for us.

These stupidly long ranges are needed to stop people kiting rats into oblivion. Which is kind of my point, people will come up with fits to abuse the crap out of any player-like rats.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Akelorian
FinFleet
Northern Coalition.
#17 - 2012-01-25 01:19:21 UTC
If you want this, go play WoW
Amaroq Dricaldari
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-01-25 02:42:04 UTC
Akelorian wrote:
If you want this, go play WoW


Now now, no need to be insulting. WoW is just as good as EVE, just in very different ways.

Besides, look at the people who did support this idea.

This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Mary Mercer
Doomheim
#19 - 2012-01-25 04:16:59 UTC
We were just talking about this tonight in my mains alliance. Some ideas were to upgrade level IV's to be like sites in class 2 wh's where the rats have a good AI, let them jam, rep each other, etc. Also STOP SPAWNING RATS! Make the trash WARP IN! Sometimes call for reinforcements right away, (if the fleet is big) or wait until the last ship is almost down before calling in the next group (if the fleet is small). Spawn differently if there is a "logi" type ship in the fleet. Spawn differently still if a jamming specialty ship is in the fleet. The bigger the fleet the more escalation and the bigger the bounties coming in.

Turn the Level III's into the solo fest level IV's are right now. Put their risk/reward between what a level III and level IV is right now. Upgrade level IV's to require fleets, using some of the idea's above. Level V's should be carrier required, no question about it. They should be HARD!. Implement a new level mission (6) which is null only. Agents available only with special (office) module added to the starbase and the system upgraded. Make these missions require super capitals and make the rewards decent but not so much that it's farmable. Develop new officer mods that are cap/super cap only and the only place to get them is for them to rarely and randomly drop in these level 6 missions. Don't allow good loot to drop out of one container or out of one specific mob. Make checking wrecks for loot mandatory in these tough missions.

Level 6 missions could even tie into null sec warfare much like faction warfare missions tie into FW missions. Require the agent to be in a starbase as stated above, and have the missions take place in some other sov (it might be a blue, it might not be). Offer no time bonus and no expiration so that an alliance has time to take out the cyno jammers, jump their fleets in and run the missions.

Do away with win triggers at all levels that involve rolling through in a shuttle, grabbing a can, and running off.
Currently our guys farm level IV's and it's getting to a point where it's worse than mining. We are burning through anywhere between 6 and 10 missions an hour and its mind numbing.

Just some ideas....
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#20 - 2012-01-25 04:23:58 UTC
Mary Mercer wrote:
Make these missions require super capitals and make the rewards decent but not so much that it's farmable. Develop new officer mods that are cap/super cap only and the only place to get them is for them to rarely and randomly drop in these level 6 missions. Don't allow good loot to drop out of one container or out of one specific mob. Make checking wrecks for loot mandatory in these tough missions.

Shh, don't let them know we PvE fit our supers.

But yeah, checking cans is boring and AI is limited by server. This has all come up before, please search for the thread.

Actually, that's a lie. I've never seen anyone requesting more hunting through cans filled with useless trade goods, but the rest has been requested for ages. There's even a dev blog about it, if you do find the previous thread on this topic I linked to it in there.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
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