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Citadels and engineering complexes profitable?
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Malcolm Smoot
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2017-06-01 23:27:04 UTC
Since citadels and engineering complexes have been around for a while now, I was wondered what kinds of experiences owners have had. Specifically, in terms of using them to produce revenue. I'm sure there are many variables that can affect things, such as location, competition for business with other facilities, and other factors I'm not aware of. If anyone would like to share thoughts, it would be interesting to hear them.
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2017-06-01 23:45:20 UTC
As you said. There are many factors involved. So the only possible answer is "it depends".

Market citadels would be the big money maker. But competition there would be really rough. Your best bet would be to find a spot that already has some industrial citadels up and running. And set up something complementary to that.
The problem with industry though is that too much of it will make the index shoot up, making that area less appealing.

If your going to be realistic I would aim for a complementary citadel that can make enough to cover your operating costs. And then get your profit from manufacturing yourself.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#3 - 2017-06-02 00:15:26 UTC
They have been fun to use. Why does profitability matter if you're enjoying them?
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#4 - 2017-06-02 01:55:56 UTC
There are huge bonuses if you can set them up in a wormhole

@lunettelulu7
Salvos Rhoska
#5 - 2017-06-02 07:05:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
As with all real estate or business:
-Location, location, location.
-Competitive prices/rates.
-Desirable commodities.
-Good support services.
-Managing customer relations.
-Advertising.
-Adequate security for you and clients.

ECs near resources.
Cits near trade lanes.
Then network them to feed into each other.

Another option is to provide services to specific isolated constellations, which helps micromanage relations with locals as potential clients. (albeit most will probably already have their own infrastructure)

All things considered, it will probably take you many months at least to recoup your investment and build up clients so prepare for the long term.

Or, setup various scams there to catch unwary/drunk players for potentially huge profits per hit.
There are a LOT of them to use, and a great deal of fools/drunks to fall for them.
Furthermore, you can use a legit and a scam structure concurrently, such that one finances/feeds into the other.


PS: WHs have an extremely limited clientele (which will almost certainly be hostile to you, unless you join them), and no Asset Safety.

PPS: For optimal results, form Corps based there and recruit, to create your own internal clientele as well as a myriad of other benefits (such as a regular income, supply of commodities, connections, word of mouth advertising, aggressive AWOX potential on competitors, looks good to investors, and potentially even an inhouse capable defense force etc.)

PPPS: If you are really motivated/committed/good, try to negotiate a loan so you can expand with complimentary structures to cut market share from competitors dramatically (or even to finance a mercenary attack on them). There are a lot of very rich players very eager to throw money at someone that shows dedication and smarts. That is their metagame, its how they play EVE. Finding those diamonds in the rough. Be prepared to show them a coherent business model/plan, rather than showing up with nothing but your hat in your hands. If you do that, you will be well ahead of atleast 90% of other loan applicants.

And if you manage to deliver on their money, investors will fight each other tooth and nail to throw even more money at you thereafter.

GL. May the isk be with you.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Wyk Bathana
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#6 - 2017-06-02 08:39:08 UTC
1) as a member of a middle size alliance, as a 18-months olf character, the best fight i was involved in was when an ennemy alliance decided to take some of our sovs and anchored suddenly a citadel in our space. All alliance members came a few days after, friends and allies came, ennemies came, allies of ennemies came, goons and PL came. 1000 pilots in local, huge tidi, the ennemy fleet was destroyed, the citadel was blown up.

2) several weeks later an ennemy carrier was caught too close from one of our astrahus, while a pilot could take the control of astrahus weapons. The carrier was tackled by the astrahus, dpsed until 5-10% of hull, then all online alliance pilots were called to come and tag him to be on the killmail

So if your question is about profit, no idea
But about enjoy, fun, war and big explosions, i would say that citadels brought some nice experiences

Wyk
Salvos Rhoska
#7 - 2017-06-02 08:53:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Wyk Bathana wrote:
Snip


Dont bother with Cits/EC in Player Sov unless you have the protection/mandate of a major alliance.
You will get gang wrecked from all sides. Forget about it.

HS is good, but very saturated.
LS is better, but riskier. (particularly due to its cramped expanse)
NPC Null is probably best, but difficult to find clients in, and even riskier. (no holds barred)
WH is terrible unless you join/service the occupant power.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#8 - 2017-06-02 09:23:18 UTC
I ran my business out of a small POS for a couple of years but when Engineering Complexes arrived, it looked like renting in a public facility was the way to go for a small industrialist.

I picked what I thought was a reliable landlord who has several public ECs and Citadels throughout New Eden. Everything was great for a while - convenient location, low tax, no fuel bill! But - after the facility ran out of fuel for the 3rd time, I decided to build my own!

I still miss my POS - the Raitaru cost 10 times as much and burns 3 times as much fuel but the bonuses are sufficient to justify it over working in a station. Part of my business is selling blueprints and the copy rig bonus alone covers the fuel bill.
Salvos Rhoska
#9 - 2017-06-02 09:27:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Do Little wrote:
Snip


For clarification:

Would you prefer operating out of a well run/rigged/supported and reliable EC, or have you decided running your own is better overall?

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#10 - 2017-06-02 10:01:29 UTC
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
The problem with industry though is that too much of it will make the index shoot up, making that area less appealing.


Yeah they really cocked that up... There desperately needs to be a service or rig which negates the vast majority of the index rise.
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#11 - 2017-06-02 14:51:02 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


For clarification:

Would you prefer operating out of a well run/rigged/supported and reliable EC, or have you decided running your own is better overall?


Once bitten, twice shy ...

If the public EC hadn't run out of fuel - twice in May, I would still be working there - it was a comfortable rut and I was making lots of ISK even though the facility didn't have optimal rigs for my business.

First time it ran out of fuel I started looking at the numbers - a rigged Raitaru is a billion cheaper than it was the last time I looked and I could save a lot by buying ice products locally and making my own fuel. So I started looking around for a good place to put it.

I now have a Raitaru that is optimized for my business and a 1% cost index (that was 0.1% when I went online - doesn't take long to push it up). Hard to say if I'd be better off in a well run/rigged/supported and reliable public EC. I'm expecting a lot of instability in the T2 market that forms the core of my business as speculators drive up the price of moon material in anticipation of refineries. Having stable infrastructure costs that are under my control will help ride out the storm.
Fish Hunter
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2017-06-02 16:42:11 UTC
From what the numbers i've seen around, you make the isk for an industry engineering complex by building your own stuff at it. You can let the public use it too and you might get a little isk back but not much. People are scared of it running out of fuel and the industry index would be too high for an EC to make a profit on the taxes (EC tax is a % of the index cost when it should be a % of the base price for EC taxes to be realistic).
Jump clone service is usually not worth it outside of your group, now that everyone's figured out that clones get destroyed if module is removed they've stopped using the public ones for the most part.
Markets on the other hand can make a lot of isk, but the guys in perimeter will just pay to have their competition removed.
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2017-06-02 19:09:23 UTC
Sentient Blade wrote:
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
The problem with industry though is that too much of it will make the index shoot up, making that area less appealing.


Yeah they really cocked that up... There desperately needs to be a service or rig which negates the vast majority of the index rise.


Agreed, the EC bonus is so pitiful as to be laughable.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2017-06-02 20:02:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
All independent/small corp owners of public ECs near Jita I know have either ...
... their ECs destroyed
... given up, due to costs
... stopped being public due to index spike

For me I did the calculation some time back, using others' offerings is still my best option and switching if necessary. But this is not a sustainable setup, as somebody has to pay the bill.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Malcolm Smoot
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2017-06-02 23:21:27 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
As with all real estate or business:
-Location, location, location.
-Competitive prices/rates.
-Desirable commodities.
-Good support services.
-Managing customer relations.
-Advertising.
-Adequate security for you and clients.

ECs near resources.
Cits near trade lanes.
Then network them to feed into each other.

Another option is to provide services to specific isolated constellations, which helps micromanage relations with locals as potential clients. (albeit most will probably already have their own infrastructure)

All things considered, it will probably take you many months at least to recoup your investment and build up clients so prepare for the long term.

Or, setup various scams there to catch unwary/drunk players for potentially huge profits per hit.
There are a LOT of them to use, and a great deal of fools/drunks to fall for them.
Furthermore, you can use a legit and a scam structure concurrently, such that one finances/feeds into the other.


PS: WHs have an extremely limited clientele (which will almost certainly be hostile to you, unless you join them), and no Asset Safety.

PPS: For optimal results, form Corps based there and recruit, to create your own internal clientele as well as a myriad of other benefits (such as a regular income, supply of commodities, connections, word of mouth advertising, aggressive AWOX potential on competitors, looks good to investors, and potentially even an inhouse capable defense force etc.)

PPPS: If you are really motivated/committed/good, try to negotiate a loan so you can expand with complimentary structures to cut market share from competitors dramatically (or even to finance a mercenary attack on them). There are a lot of very rich players very eager to throw money at someone that shows dedication and smarts. That is their metagame, its how they play EVE. Finding those diamonds in the rough. Be prepared to show them a coherent business model/plan, rather than showing up with nothing but your hat in your hands. If you do that, you will be well ahead of atleast 90% of other loan applicants.

And if you manage to deliver on their money, investors will fight each other tooth and nail to throw even more money at you thereafter.

GL. May the isk be with you.

Man, that's interesting. But I have to admit to myself-- in Eve market stuff, there will always be someone with more math talent, bean-counting focus, and inspired market strategizing insightfulness than me. I.e., could easily get my butt kicked, and not exactly know why. Got to love Eve. Whatever activity you're doing, it's the hairline differences that make you a victor or a beaten.

Fish Hunter's information about Perimeter citadel owners paying you to just get out, though.... Extortion-- hmm.... Smile
Salvos Rhoska
#16 - 2017-06-03 08:28:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Malcolm Smoot wrote:
Man, that's interesting.

Is it?
I pulled the whole thing out of my butt.
I have no idea what Im talking about.
Blink

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent