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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9761 - 2017-05-30 05:14:42 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
And this excuses unlimited time under a cloak how?

I mean, that's the whole central issue here. People do want to defend their space, prevent the gathering of intel, and do all manner of things to ships that have cloaks on them for no better reason than those ships are out in space. As this is EVE, that's the only reason anyone needs to have that chance, narrow though it may be.

Cloaks don't meet that standard though. A cloak can stay 100% safe for an unlimited time. Either the 100% safe needs to come down, or a reasonable time constraint be applied.

It's not a Local problem. Local is balanced all on its own by working the same for everybody (insert boilerplate). The issue is that cloaks have too much power, and the whiny children who rely on them are terrified a Dev might some day fix that so they reach for every shred of nonsense they can to try and defend it.


It is a local problem. The issue is not cynos. As the w-space people have pointed out a new connection forming in a wormhole is pretty much like a covert ops cyno. Local does not work the same for everyone. The person in system has a distinct advantage of being warned before the person entering system even loads grid.

And cloaks are 100% only when they are at a secret safe and do nothing. That safety is in essence self-limiting. This has been gone over to death. Cloaks are not safe when you are on the move. Not 100%. And if you are going to lose your space to some AFK cloaky campers, you were never going to hold that space anyways.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9762 - 2017-05-31 06:48:27 UTC
Christ Teckos, what do you think that (insert boilerplate) means?


Yes, yes, yes... we get it. That second or two of grid loading is absolutely game breaking for you. So there is a suggestion on the table that fixes that by keeping you out of local (exactly the thing you have asked for quite a bit) so long as the gate cloak is on you (limiting that to the only point when it's actually a problem).

Other than the loading delay (this is the boilerplate), local works the same for everyone, everywhere it's actually a thing. Thus not in wormholes, we get that too.

I know you like to try and derail things with pointless drivel, but honestly... You accuse others of intellectual dishonesty and then you hide behind pedantic stupidity so that anyone that attempts to actually have a discussion wastes 90% of their word count in rehashing previously covered points because you will pretend like those parts of the discussion haven't happened because you have nothing new and you just want to rely on 7 year old dogmatic garbage long ago debunked.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#9763 - 2017-05-31 08:03:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Linus Gorp
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Christ Teckos, what do you think that (insert boilerplate) means?


Yes, yes, yes... we get it. That second or two of grid loading is absolutely game breaking for you. So there is a suggestion on the table that fixes that by keeping you out of local (exactly the thing you have asked for quite a bit) so long as the gate cloak is on you (limiting that to the only point when it's actually a problem).

Other than the loading delay (this is the boilerplate), local works the same for everyone, everywhere it's actually a thing. Thus not in wormholes, we get that too.

I know you like to try and derail things with pointless drivel, but honestly... You accuse others of intellectual dishonesty and then you hide behind pedantic stupidity so that anyone that attempts to actually have a discussion wastes 90% of their word count in rehashing previously covered points because you will pretend like those parts of the discussion haven't happened because you have nothing new and you just want to rely on 7 year old dogmatic garbage long ago debunked.

Yeah, Mike. He accuses you of intellectual dishonesty because he thinks you're smart enough to understand that the points you make are just whining to push your agenda for safe space.

I, on the other hand, think you're an idiot. You lack the intelligence to understand it and that's why you constantly rehash the same crap that has been logically debunked again and again.
There is no "discussion" with people like you because you are incapable of comprehending the subject matter. All you see is AFK cloaking and you want it gone because it violates your safe space, but you lack the intelligence to understand why AFK cloaking exists in the first place.

You don't get rid of a disease by treating the symptoms, you do it by removing the cause of the symptoms. Otherwise you have accomplished nothing, with different symptoms appearing as time goes on.

And your "local works the same for everyone" is only true so long as you completely disregard the underlying space mechanics. The gameplay mechanics in highsec, lowsec, npc nullsec and sov nullsec differ wildly and AFK cloaking is only "a problem" in sov nullsec. No other kind of space is complaining about it. You know why? Because in highsec nobody can shoot you without consequences and it's already cramped up with neutrals (wardeccers use neutral alts to circumvent local intel) and in lowsec and npc nullsec you find people that aren't victims by default that start crying the moment someone dares look at them.

Spin it all you want, but local in sov nullsec is heavily favoring the space holder, whereas in every other part of space it's more balanced due to the way the underlying space mechanics work.
If you want to reap the rewards of high-risk space, then suck it up and take the high risk instead of wanting to avoid it with every trick possible.
You either get high-risk -> high-reward or non-existential risk -> pathetically low reward. Right now, you have the best of both thanks to local and that's just so unbalanced that it's a really sad joke.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.

Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#9764 - 2017-05-31 08:14:50 UTC
*scratches head*

Ok, so i f local is not the problem, and indefinite cloaking is not the problem.........

Killboards?
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#9765 - 2017-05-31 08:18:28 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
*scratches head*

Ok, so i f local is not the problem, and indefinite cloaking is not the problem.........

Killboards?

Local is the problem.
Indefinite cloaking can't be a problem beyond mind games, because a cloaker can't do **** while he's cloaked. He has to decloak to do anything at all and is then subject to the same space pewpew as everyone else, in a ship that's inferior to non-covops.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#9766 - 2017-05-31 12:27:53 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Christ Teckos, what do you think that (insert boilerplate) means?


Yes, yes, yes... we get it. That second or two of grid loading is absolutely game breaking for you. So there is a suggestion on the table that fixes that by keeping you out of local (exactly the thing you have asked for quite a bit) so long as the gate cloak is on you (limiting that to the only point when it's actually a problem).


[/quote]

They will still track you as you move system to system so the early warning still works and by the time you align, warp and then land at whatever you are targeting they are long gone because you popped up in local. This changes very little in reality.
OffBeaT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9767 - 2017-05-31 13:19:16 UTC
I don't know about you guys but in my systems there was 150 pods in one day popped and that is with in five jumps in most ways, so its always nasty. Most of us don't move in ships any bigger then a Indy or frig/dd these days with all the probes & interdictors out there. They don't just come for you with one interdictor its more like 3 to a gang these days with probe ships. Safe spots get found out so fast these days you don't even have time to get to one to cloak if your working in a BS. Saying that I don't think you should be able to afk cloak for ever but know its a risk to make cloaking to ineffective as well," You just will never get left alone to get anything done in low sec/00". So I hope its keeped in mine people have to work and get things done in sec/00 space to achieve things in the game as goals to do and should be able to have a fair defence against pvpers who don't really care on players doing anything other then getting popped for them as fast as they can get it done. I don't wont cloaking to end up useless so whatever we do keep it useful to attack & doge with. I like probes with dd depth charge attacks to search them out and catch. probes can range them down with in 300km or so and depth bomb them down to uncloak.

I don't see cloaking as game camping this isn't quake," know one wonts a easy pop in eve all the time it just makes the game look stupid.". Ugh
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9768 - 2017-05-31 18:22:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Voidstar
baltec1 wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Christ Teckos, what do you think that (insert boilerplate) means?


Yes, yes, yes... we get it. That second or two of grid loading is absolutely game breaking for you. So there is a suggestion on the table that fixes that by keeping you out of local (exactly the thing you have asked for quite a bit) so long as the gate cloak is on you (limiting that to the only point when it's actually a problem).



They will still track you as you move system to system so the early warning still works and by the time you align, warp and then land at whatever you are targeting they are long gone because you popped up in local. This changes very little in reality.



You mean multiple people will track you as you move through systems, creating intel channels to support their operations?

Yeah, see, that's called player effort.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9769 - 2017-05-31 18:30:24 UTC
Linus Gorp wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Christ Teckos, what do you think that (insert boilerplate) means?


Yes, yes, yes... we get it. That second or two of grid loading is absolutely game breaking for you. So there is a suggestion on the table that fixes that by keeping you out of local (exactly the thing you have asked for quite a bit) so long as the gate cloak is on you (limiting that to the only point when it's actually a problem).

Other than the loading delay (this is the boilerplate), local works the same for everyone, everywhere it's actually a thing. Thus not in wormholes, we get that too.

I know you like to try and derail things with pointless drivel, but honestly... You accuse others of intellectual dishonesty and then you hide behind pedantic stupidity so that anyone that attempts to actually have a discussion wastes 90% of their word count in rehashing previously covered points because you will pretend like those parts of the discussion haven't happened because you have nothing new and you just want to rely on 7 year old dogmatic garbage long ago debunked.

Yeah, Mike. He accuses you of intellectual dishonesty because he thinks you're smart enough to understand that the points you make are just whining to push your agenda for safe space.

I, on the other hand, think you're an idiot. You lack the intelligence to understand it and that's why you constantly rehash the same crap that has been logically debunked again and again.
There is no "discussion" with people like you because you are incapable of comprehending the subject matter. All you see is AFK cloaking and you want it gone because it violates your safe space, but you lack the intelligence to understand why AFK cloaking exists in the first place.

You don't get rid of a disease by treating the symptoms, you do it by removing the cause of the symptoms. Otherwise you have accomplished nothing, with different symptoms appearing as time goes on.

And your "local works the same for everyone" is only true so long as you completely disregard the underlying space mechanics. The gameplay mechanics in highsec, lowsec, npc nullsec and sov nullsec differ wildly and AFK cloaking is only "a problem" in sov nullsec. No other kind of space is complaining about it. You know why? Because in highsec nobody can shoot you without consequences and it's already cramped up with neutrals (wardeccers use neutral alts to circumvent local intel) and in lowsec and npc nullsec you find people that aren't victims by default that start crying the moment someone dares look at them.

Spin it all you want, but local in sov nullsec is heavily favoring the space holder, whereas in every other part of space it's more balanced due to the way the underlying space mechanics work.
If you want to reap the rewards of high-risk space, then suck it up and take the high risk instead of wanting to avoid it with every trick possible.
You either get high-risk -> high-reward or non-existential risk -> pathetically low reward. Right now, you have the best of both thanks to local and that's just so unbalanced that it's a really sad joke.


This is where you prove how dense you are.

I don't believe AFK cloaking to be a problem, except that it's the only afk thing actually improved by going afk.

Afk should degrade your performance and open you up to greater risk. This is true of everything but camping under a cloak.

SOV nullsec is *supposed* to heavily favor the holder. That's the whole point in holding the space in the first place. It's not just about sticking your name in the autopilot box, it's about actually getting benefits.

Cloaks are a problem, everywhere, anytime they are in use. They are too strong. Afk camping isn't an issue, it should just lead to popped ships if left alone too long, instead of permanently limiting defense strategies to ineffective passive means that tie up multiple accounts 'dealing' with one newbie ship that you managed to sneak into system during the local's down time one night.

You want local's to work for their defense... well, they do. How about you work for your offense too?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#9770 - 2017-05-31 18:39:49 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Mike Voidstar wrote:



You mean multiple people will track you as you move through systems, creating intel channels to support their operations?

Yeah, see, that's called player effort.


And its only counter is AFK cloaking.

Mike Voidstar wrote:


You want local's to work for their defense... well, they do. How about you work for your offense too?


Spending a few days/weeks being unable to do anything on that account is a hefty sacrifice in order to have a chance of catching something.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9771 - 2017-05-31 18:52:06 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Christ Teckos, what do you think that (insert boilerplate) means?


Yes, yes, yes... we get it. That second or two of grid loading is absolutely game breaking for you. So there is a suggestion on the table that fixes that by keeping you out of local (exactly the thing you have asked for quite a bit) so long as the gate cloak is on you (limiting that to the only point when it's actually a problem).

Other than the loading delay (this is the boilerplate), local works the same for everyone, everywhere it's actually a thing. Thus not in wormholes, we get that too.

I know you like to try and derail things with pointless drivel, but honestly... You accuse others of intellectual dishonesty and then you hide behind pedantic stupidity so that anyone that attempts to actually have a discussion wastes 90% of their word count in rehashing previously covered points because you will pretend like those parts of the discussion haven't happened because you have nothing new and you just want to rely on 7 year old dogmatic garbage long ago debunked.


I have never said it was game breaking, but FFS at least be honest about it and stop saying local works the same for everyone. It quite clearly does not.

You can avoid the rehashing by not lying. Stop saying it works the same.

And how can it be debunked if you admit it is true.

Here is the strategy for you going forward, stop saying local work the same for everyone. It doesn't.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9772 - 2017-05-31 18:55:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
baltec1 wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Christ Teckos, what do you think that (insert boilerplate) means?


Yes, yes, yes... we get it. That second or two of grid loading is absolutely game breaking for you. So there is a suggestion on the table that fixes that by keeping you out of local (exactly the thing you have asked for quite a bit) so long as the gate cloak is on you (limiting that to the only point when it's actually a problem).


They will still track you as you move system to system so the early warning still works and by the time you align, warp and then land at whatever you are targeting they are long gone because you popped up in local. This changes very little in reality.


This too. Local feeds into intel networks and for a group with a larger number of systems you are more likely to be reported. A group with a large number of systems and a dense population will be even more effective at tracking you.

Now, I'm not saying any of this is game breaking, but nerfing cloaks given these advantages that Mike wants to hide behind *insert boiler plate* and then claim local works the same everywhere and for everyone is pretty dishonest, IMO.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#9773 - 2017-06-01 02:51:57 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


Here is the strategy for you going forward, stop saying local work the same for everyone. It doesn't.


How does Local work differently between Highsec and Losec?
Highsec and Nullsec?
Losec and Nullsec?
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#9774 - 2017-06-01 04:10:30 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
How does Local work differently between Highsec and Losec?
Highsec and Nullsec?
Losec and Nullsec?


This has already been explained, many times.

Local in highsec is different because PvP threats are virtually nonexistent and local is full of harmless neutrals. Unlike nullsec, where any player without a blue + on their name is an obvious threat, watching local in highsec isn't going to tell you anything about how safe you are.

Local in lowsec is different because nothing of value exists in lowsec. It's entirely a PvP battleground, so while local does provide intel on enemy PvP forces anyone in lowsec is there looking for a fight and there's much less incentive to immediately dock up if even the slightest potential threat appears. The lone exception is FW farmers, but they're flying heavily-stabbed disposable T1 frigates and almost impossible to catch even if they ignore local entirely.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9775 - 2017-06-01 04:11:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Max Deveron wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


Here is the strategy for you going forward, stop saying local work the same for everyone. It doesn't.


How does Local work differently between Highsec and Losec?
Highsec and Nullsec?
Losec and Nullsec?


The differences are not between different security states of systems, but between an incumbent and entrant. Mechanically local works the same in HS, LS and NS.

If you are in system already and I jump in you will see me in local before I load grid. That brief span of time will give you more than enough time to warp out before I can land and do anything to you. Hence the incumbent always has the defensive advantage. Always (except w-space where nobody shows in local except by choice).

Edit: Also, Merin's point is that while local is mechanically the same between HS, LS, NS people use them differently in HS than in LS/NS. This is mainly due to other differences in mechanics namely CONCORD. The threat of CONCORD punishment in HS means that you can safely ignore everyone in local unless you under a wardec or maybe worried about suicide gankers.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#9776 - 2017-06-01 04:40:26 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Afk should degrade your performance and open you up to greater risk. This is true of everything but camping under a cloak.


Nonsense. If you are AFK then your performance is degraded from "threaten people in local and kill any vulnerable targets you find" to "possibly scare someone, if they're a weak alliance that is vulnerable to such a small threat". And I'd say that's a pretty big drop in effectiveness.

Quote:
SOV nullsec is *supposed* to heavily favor the holder. That's the whole point in holding the space in the first place. It's not just about sticking your name in the autopilot box, it's about actually getting benefits.


It already does favor the holder. What you're asking for is going beyond favoring the holder, it's making it nearly risk-free to farm PvE content at 100% ISK/hour effectiveness, without investing in any meaningful active defenses.

Quote:
How about you work for your offense too?


Lolwut. Cloaked ships have to work very hard for their offense. AFK cloaking doesn't get you a kill, it gets you the possibility of a kill. You still have to find your target, beat them in combat (in a ship that pays a high price in damage/tank to fit that cloak), and hope that no reinforcements arrive to ruin your day. And your target can still negate your entire offense by being patient enough to remain docked or move to a different system.

For cloaking to have the same level of effort required for offense there would have to be a new "kill" option added to the right-click menu for any player in local that has an NPC combat timer. Pressing it would immediately destroy their ship and move all surviving modules to the station where you have your clone set. That's the equivalent to the minimal-effort safety provided by local, where all you have to do is watch local and click "dock" as soon as someone appears.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9777 - 2017-06-01 05:49:50 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:


SOV nullsec is *supposed* to heavily favor the holder. That's the whole point in holding the space in the first place. It's not just about sticking your name in the autopilot box, it's about actually getting benefits.


It does. If you are in one of your systems ratting away it benefits you more than the intruder. Further, add on intel channels and it works even better...for the sov holder. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#9778 - 2017-06-01 05:50:00 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


Here is the strategy for you going forward, stop saying local work the same for everyone. It doesn't.


How does Local work differently between Highsec and Losec?
Highsec and Nullsec?
Losec and Nullsec?


Hundreds of false postives make local in hisec less effective as an intel tool. It's rarely useful outside a wardec.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#9779 - 2017-06-01 06:54:51 UTC
ok so the point has been proven then, Local works the 'same' for everyone.

So i guess it is only a matter of player strategies and effort as that other guy was saying.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#9780 - 2017-06-01 06:58:53 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
ok so the point has been proven then, Local works the 'same' for everyone.


Max Deveron: HAY GUYS HOW IS LOCAL DIFFERENT.

Everyone else: {explanation of how local is different}

Max Deveron: SEE, THIS PROVES THAT LOCAL IS THE SAME.