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Breaking News: Citadel/Plex Contracting.

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Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#561 - 2017-05-31 17:55:01 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
From eight years ago
LOL!

You are reaching more than Jenn on that one.

Mr Epeen Cool



For those of you who don't speak Epeenish (the official language of Peenistan, but mostly spoken in it's capital city of Dickenburg), let me translate:

"I've run out of things to say, so I troll you"!.
Complaining about trolling while trolling.

You mad, bro?

Mr Epeen Cool


Furious!

*smashes keyboard*
Salvos Rhoska
#562 - 2017-05-31 17:55:45 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
We have been over this, a citadel unanchors for 7 days. Get some buddies and go shoot it. Hire some mercs and have them shoot it. Go impose costs and risk on the scammer Roll


Go wreck it and still wait 5-20 days for access to assets, as if you hadnt.

No problem

Everything is fine.
EVE is perfect.

Why are you guys even arguing?
Whats the point?
CCP knows best.
Everything is fine.


I didn't say perfect or fine. Funny how everyone says, "EVE is about risk and reward, it's great!" Then they are facing the risk and they show up here whining wanting things like the drop box.


Everything is fine.
Everything is great.

No point in talking about it.
Evertind az expectitors.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Salvos Rhoska
#563 - 2017-05-31 17:57:38 UTC
Close all threads.

Everything is fine.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#564 - 2017-05-31 18:04:24 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Teckos, bro, why do you bother with the essays?

Nobody cares.
Everything is fine.


Because lots of people have the wrong end of the stick.

Suppose you log in and do something dumb...really dumb. I notice and take advantage of it. Why should my risk be exactly the same as yours when you are being dumb and I am not?

If the answer is risk should not be equal, then everyone saying risk should be balanced is wrong. They have a flawed premise. As such, everything else they have written/suggested is now quite questionable.

In fact, the asymmetry of risk is more likely a feature than a bug. If a group of players take what they think is a prudent risk, but they overlooked something then their risk maybe far higher which can lead to all sorts of interesting outcomes.

Further, since risk is largely based on player actions it is not really something CCP should generally be concerned about. Again, if a player insists on being really dumb...that is his problem. Not CCPs.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#565 - 2017-05-31 18:07:20 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Cypherous wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


1) As I said, and you agree, a delay does not prevent the scam. Go ahead and make contracts from further away, with tight deadline and with more m3.

2) It just means you have to commit to the staging location in advance, IF you have not already given access to participants (which you did do, right?)


Seeing as citadels can be unanchored and only take 24 hours to deploy and can be purchased for a fairly minor sum and not need any fuel its not really hard to just go pick something 10 jumps from jita and stick a bunch of empty cargo containers in a contract to bump it over the m3 needed to make it a freighter run, sure it takes 7 days to take the old one down but considering the money you already made from it its not really hard to just drop the ISK on a raitaru to deploy somewhere else :P


We have been over this, a citadel unanchors for 7 days. Get some buddies and go shoot it. Hire some mercs and have them shoot it. Go impose costs and risk on the scammer Roll


A suggestion which goes against everything people who complain want and think. If someone is complaining, it's because the think something is unfair. If it's unfair and they themselves didn't cause the unfairness, then they think "why should I do anything, I didn't cause this!" So they go to the people who did cause it (in this case, it's the people who made/own the game) and say "fix this because it's unfair". To be honest it's not unusual, Lots of reasonable people think this way

Excuse me for speaking for you but I'll take the liberty. You and I see the same situation and don't care about who caused it. It just IS, and it's something to be dealt with instead of waiting and hoping that the powers that be will fix it (it helps that we know that when the powers that be 'fix' things, other things tend to get messed up by accident, best to handle it ourselves) So we use the tools we have, fix the situation for ourselves ie avoid the situation or make someone pay for doing it to us etc, and go on about our business.

Discussions like this aren't a difference of opinion, they are differences in worldview and preference.


I agree. Some prefer a game where it really is "risk vs. reward" and players acting according to their own risk preferences, others appear to want to move the game more and more towards a theme park. And the latter always cloak such proposals with the lie of "it will bring in lots and lots of players too!!!"

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Salvos Rhoska
#566 - 2017-05-31 18:08:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Teckos Pech wrote:
Snip x2

Everything is fine.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Fluffy Moe
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#567 - 2017-05-31 18:53:34 UTC
Khara Hirl wrote:
The ability for someone to lock you out of a plex/citadel after accepting a courier contract, in my opinion is absolutely abuse of a game mechanic.

To me this is straight up mechanical abuse and the fact that CCP lets this type of activity go on, is absolutely disparaging to new players and disgusting to old players. This is NOT how to run a game, just because scamming is allowed doesnt mean you allow/design game mechanics to specifically allow scamming.

I have a solution and it's very very simple, allow couriers to right click their package with in 2500m of the citadel/plex and select deliver.

Why would CCP continue to allow this type of abuse, aren't you wanting new players to come into your game and stay? This isn't part of the whole "eve is hardcore, rah rah rah, get used to it rah rah rah, salt salt salt" Take this lesson to heart because you nearly killed your game by not listening to the silent majority but listening to the vocal minority when it comes to crap like this.


FIX DELIVERING TO PLEX/CITADELS IMMEDIATELY!


I'm still a semi new / returning new player and was actually looking at those contracts. Glad I decided not to pick any and now never will.

I do not see this as a huge issue for new players as vast majority of them also ask for / require collaterals which are well beyond any new player affordability. But yes, here and there you will have a new player saving up for just that and falling for it and resulting in them quitting the game or vastly contributing to it.

From my personal perspective, this only really sucks for the legit hauling contracts and hurts legit citadel / station owners depriving them of haulers such as myself. if I were very new, it would be much worse.
Salvos Rhoska
#568 - 2017-05-31 19:01:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Lets all start scamming Red Frog.

Issue private contract full of trash-> set 3 days-> one day for delivery-> lock access to structure.

1bil per hit.

Unanchor structure, shift to alt, anchor, rinse repeat.

Everything is fine.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#569 - 2017-05-31 19:18:29 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Lets all start scamming Red Frog.

Issue private contract full of trash-> set 3 days-> one day for delivery-> lock access to structure.

1bil per hit.

Unanchor structure, shift to alt, anchor, rinse repeat.

Everything is fine.


Go ahead and make history in EVE by breaking Red Frog's business model. It's withing your reach Salvos.
Salvos Rhoska
#570 - 2017-05-31 19:27:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Red/Black Frog is wary of Upwell structures you say?

Hmm..
Wonder why?

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#571 - 2017-05-31 19:51:55 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Lets all start scamming Red Frog.

Issue private contract full of trash-> set 3 days-> one day for delivery-> lock access to structure.

1bil per hit.

Unanchor structure, shift to alt, anchor, rinse repeat.

Everything is fine.


No costs or commitments here...nope none at all.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Salvos Rhoska
#572 - 2017-05-31 20:05:17 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
No costs or commitments here...nope none at all.


Everything is fine.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#573 - 2017-05-31 20:29:21 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
No costs or commitments here...nope none at all.


Everything is fine.


Absolutely, no need to do a thing.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Defecanda
Ice Mining Boys
#574 - 2017-05-31 21:23:37 UTC
Coralas wrote:
Defecanda wrote:
The balance is off on this one. Broken mechanic perception is greater than "scam" dynamic. CCP should invest in alternative solution that OP mentioned. +1.

Example:

PROBLEM: Citadel courier contracts can be accepted and then docking rights revoked.
SOLUTION: EVE players never courier to citadels.

PROBLEM: Jita chat is cancer.
SOLUTION: No one chats in Jita.


Day trading scam mechanic is the same. Why should courier contracts have perfect trustable delivery when market buy orders cannot be trusted to fill.






Fair point

[i][b]CCP Zulu.....      Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. [/b](i like to steal sigs)[/i]
Cypherous
Liberty Rogues
Aprilon Dynasty
#575 - 2017-05-31 22:44:30 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Cypherous wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


1) As I said, and you agree, a delay does not prevent the scam. Go ahead and make contracts from further away, with tight deadline and with more m3.

2) It just means you have to commit to the staging location in advance, IF you have not already given access to participants (which you did do, right?)


Seeing as citadels can be unanchored and only take 24 hours to deploy and can be purchased for a fairly minor sum and not need any fuel its not really hard to just go pick something 10 jumps from jita and stick a bunch of empty cargo containers in a contract to bump it over the m3 needed to make it a freighter run, sure it takes 7 days to take the old one down but considering the money you already made from it its not really hard to just drop the ISK on a raitaru to deploy somewhere else :P


We have been over this, a citadel unanchors for 7 days. Get some buddies and go shoot it. Hire some mercs and have them shoot it. Go impose costs and risk on the scammer Roll


Considering the money they will have made the loss of a small engineering complex without any fittings isn't going to break the bank :P

Also given the reinforcement timers there will still be people falling for the scam all the while you're bashing it
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#576 - 2017-05-31 22:53:47 UTC
Cypherous wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Cypherous wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


1) As I said, and you agree, a delay does not prevent the scam. Go ahead and make contracts from further away, with tight deadline and with more m3.

2) It just means you have to commit to the staging location in advance, IF you have not already given access to participants (which you did do, right?)


Seeing as citadels can be unanchored and only take 24 hours to deploy and can be purchased for a fairly minor sum and not need any fuel its not really hard to just go pick something 10 jumps from jita and stick a bunch of empty cargo containers in a contract to bump it over the m3 needed to make it a freighter run, sure it takes 7 days to take the old one down but considering the money you already made from it its not really hard to just drop the ISK on a raitaru to deploy somewhere else :P


We have been over this, a citadel unanchors for 7 days. Get some buddies and go shoot it. Hire some mercs and have them shoot it. Go impose costs and risk on the scammer Roll


Considering the money they will have made the loss of a small engineering complex without any fittings isn't going to break the bank :P

Also given the reinforcement timers there will still be people falling for the scam all the while you're bashing it


You are assuming they are making lots of ISK via this method. Maybe they are...or maybe they are just getting started.

And making a list of these guys and distributing it widely is also a way to make life harder for them.

But the prevailing view in this thread is :effort: CCP!!!!! FIX PLEASE!!!!

Never mind using the following rule: if it looks too good to be true it probably is.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#577 - 2017-05-31 23:02:37 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


Never mind using the following rule: if it looks too good to be true it probably is.

Aye. There's the rub.

It doesn't have to look too good to be true. It just has to look like any one of the other thousand public contracts up at any given time.

There's only one solution. Don't deal with citadels. Period.

Mr Epeen Cool
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#578 - 2017-05-31 23:42:14 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


Never mind using the following rule: if it looks too good to be true it probably is.

Aye. There's the rub.

It doesn't have to look too good to be true. It just has to look like any one of the other thousand public contracts up at any given time.

There's only one solution. Don't deal with citadels. Period.

Mr Epeen Cool


Or do basic background checks which will flag up a scammer.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#579 - 2017-06-01 00:14:50 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


Never mind using the following rule: if it looks too good to be true it probably is.

Aye. There's the rub.

It doesn't have to look too good to be true. It just has to look like any one of the other thousand public contracts up at any given time.

There's only one solution. Don't deal with citadels. Period.

Mr Epeen Cool


Or do basic background checks which will flag up a scammer.
Whatever spins your wheels, Baltec.

But much like I don't run background checks on emails from Nigerian princes to know it's simpler just to ignore them, I can't be arsed to run background checks on a citadel contract when there are hundreds in the same constellation just like it that pay just as well and are easy to see at a glance if they are scams or not. But if you are so determined to take that citadel run, then knock yourself out. It's your sandbox as much as it's mine to do as you wish.

Mr Epeen Cool
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#580 - 2017-06-01 00:16:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Lets all start scamming Red Frog.

Issue private contract full of trash-> set 3 days-> one day for delivery-> lock access to structure.

1bil per hit.

Unanchor structure, shift to alt, anchor, rinse repeat.

Everything is fine.
Good luck with that, as far as I know Red Frog will only deliver, either directly or via a subsidiary such as Black Frog, to citadels owned by people on an approved list.

They're professionals, they know how to minimise their risk.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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