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Sense of direction in EVE, up and down

Author
Ruila Mutsari
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-01-21 11:47:21 UTC
What has always bothered me about EVE, is that there is a huge sense of direction in the game. In my opinion, in space there should be no "up" or "down". I have thought about this, and I think there are two minor changes that could help change this feeling entirely:


  1. Remove the limitations on tilting the camera.
  2. In this way, when you are flying e.g. "up", you will not be able to notice it because you can freely move the camera in any direction. This will also enable you to view your ship upside down.

  3. Randomize the way ships are aligned.
  4. When you are in e.g. a fleet warp, all ships will be neatly aligned in the same direction. Change this so that the alignment is random everytime you undock, jump, cyno, etc. When all ships are aligned differently there will be no real sense of which is up and which is down.

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2012-01-21 13:04:51 UTC
This would be a massive pain in the backside for anyone trying to co-ordinate fleets. (EG: 'align straight up'). While it's fine for realism purposes, it's a pain for actually playing.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#3 - 2012-01-21 16:22:47 UTC
Aheam

System navigations auto suggest up and down based on the galaxy and star orintatoin, laws, and why in the hell does a solar system has to be on its side? Thus all up and down have been predetermined for a long time now to help compensate for the 2d human mind when it comes to navigation.

North on the galaxy could be orintation twoads the center of the universe, south would be away from the center.

As long as eve doesnt restrict up and down movements its perfectly fine as it is and realistic enough.

Humans are extrodinarly bad 3d mappers probably becuase we never actually ever lived in a 3d mappable envrionment everythign is broken down.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#4 - 2012-01-21 17:15:21 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Aheam

System navigations auto suggest up and down based on the galaxy and star orintatoin, laws, and why in the hell does a solar system has to be on its side? Thus all up and down have been predetermined for a long time now to help compensate for the 2d human mind when it comes to navigation.

North on the galaxy could be orintation twoads the center of the universe, south would be away from the center.

As long as eve doesnt restrict up and down movements its perfectly fine as it is and realistic enough.

Humans are extrodinarly bad 3d mappers probably becuase we never actually ever lived in a 3d mappable envrionment everythign is broken down.


What? I'm not sure about you; but my reality is 3 dimensional. I'm not a stick drawing on a piece of paper; I can climb mountains, jump off cliffs, ski down slopes, run, fall, and do many other 3 dimensional thingss.

Humans are not particularly effective at translating a 3D environment, or particularly a concept, to a 2 dimensional environment. That I think is true. It's also hard for many people to conceptualize 3 dimensional objects and environments, and describe it effectively to other people through words or language. You may get the general idea across, but if you asked them to draw a picture, you'd be looking at something completely different in most cases.

3D programs are one of the best mediums for turning a concept into something other people can see and appreciate. Many people use these effectively, and for the most part, it's much more effective than mechanical 2D drawings when showing someone the finished concept. They can see it and understand it, in the way they would be able to see and understand a new car design by looking at the prototype. If you showed them the blueprints on paper however, they wouldn't-in most cases-be able to make heads or tails of it.

Back to topic:

The only problem I see with 3 dimensional orientation in EVE, is what happens when you pilot up or down. It has always irritated me that your view cam just stops rotating, and makes it feel like you have exceeded the limits of the programming, which you have.

It's for this reason that I try to avoid any situation where I have to fly up or down, or view spaceflight in that way while playing. I know this can be changed, and it is not a strict requirement of 3D environments in games. It is actually really wierd.

Solar systems all have a central plane and natural up and down. Traveling along the orbital plane is always horizontal travel; where passing through it is vertical travel in one diection or another. There is nothing wrong with this. I don't think it specifically matters which is determined to be up or down; but usually, people on the Northern Hemisphere would consider the clockwise rotation of planets to indicate that direction. People in the southern hemishpere might feel differently, given their perpective is the opposite. Otherwise, it really doesn't matter.

Solar systems and Galaxies are present in all maner of orientations of course, and what is true for one locally, does not strictly need to be true for others. For the most part, I believe the central plane of a solar system is oriented towards the Galactic core. Depending on the height above or below that core, the orientation of one solar system in a galaxy, might be comparably different to others.

The only limitation, if it is such, of human beings; is that they must generally make an association with up and down. Given the nature of our universe, it is questionable whether that is a necessary or appropriate way of defining things. I do believe that people would become very confused if it wasn't done however.
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Sorana Bonzari
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2012-01-21 17:58:29 UTC
My 2 cents:

After reading the above I think we might have a discrepancy of the term 3D. When people post that "we humans live in 2D" They are really saying that no matter where we are on earth that we have a seance of up/down. This is due to gravity/pressure. In space however (assuming there is no reference point to view) their is no seance of up and down so in a total 3D spin you would have no understanding of where you where.

Now back to the relationship argument:
The best way to view his idea is to think of the tactical overview (lets say when you are close proximity of a gate). When you move up/down left/right of the gate the tactical overview remains flat giving a since of what you are calling "2D space" . Now lets say you are below the gate and the tactical overview is tilted to bisect you and the gate. Now you have a different relationship of what is up/down. This relationship is what he seeks to get rid of. To get to this point the auto-cam would have to roll/pitch/yaw with the ship making it extremely hard to fly in a combat setting not mentioning the motion sickness of a totally free movement system.

Extending on this idea:
What if we introduce the idea of roll?

My thoughts:
I think the game will become more difficult if we rid the game of a scene of up/down because its needed for pvp (above the gate/below the gate exc....) although allowing ships to roll upside down would be a cool addition to the game. (ship roll without camera roll to maintain the up/down feeling we need to pvp.)
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#6 - 2012-01-21 18:03:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Human mind maps everything in 2 dimensions and cannot handeled altered perception of the original mapping software hardwired into our genes. The fact the human mind fails at so many interpintations of the world (aka Optical Illusions) is proof of this. Any picture that appears to be 3d is part of this. Its not really three dimensional but because of all the queues and hints and suggestiosn the mind maps it out as such. If humans where truely mapping thier envrionment in the 3d, simple 2d illusions would cease to work. Unfouruatnely the only real way to evolve this is to not develop as a species in space or lack of gravity where orintation is disregarded for anything critical in development however some evolutionist argue that you would never get a very complex organizim beyond bacteria in that envrionment but meh.

I have to aggre with the camera having peg points being a downer but the question is what does the camera do once it passes this peg point? does it auto level back out to system telemetry or the ships telemetetry? Either way its annoying and a solution is needed.

edit

If they introduce roll they must introduce sectionlized damage and line of sight shooting and being able to disable parts of the ship whcih all be for cool factor but I dont see it being feasible at the moment for eve. Maybe in another 5 years.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Ruila Mutsari
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-01-21 18:04:56 UTC
@Danika:
If this would be a problem for fleets there could always be the option of turning camera movement limitations on in the settings somewhere.


@Mars:
Obviously the plane in which the planets orbit a star sort of defines an up and down. However when you are in deadspace for example, far away from any planets, you have no reference points from which you could tell what direction you are flying in. But with the current game mechanics, this "false sense of direction" is forced upon you by the limitations in camera tilting.


Personally I think this would allow for much better game immersion at little cost, these features do not seem like they will be hard to implement.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#8 - 2012-01-21 18:06:49 UTC
Ruila Mutsari wrote:
@Danika:
If this would be a problem for fleets there could always be the option of turning camera movement limitations on in the settings somewhere.


@Mars:
Obviously the plane in which the planets orbit a star sort of defines an up and down. However when you are in deadspace for example, far away from any planets, you have no reference points from which you could tell what direction you are flying in. But with the current game mechanics, this "false sense of direction" is forced upon you by the limitations in camera tilting.


Personally I think this would allow for much better game immersion at little cost, these features do not seem like they will be hard to implement.


Though I dont think they explained WH space telemetry the ones in systems are often tied into gate hence the local chat as well.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Sorana Bonzari
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2012-01-21 19:10:10 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:

edit

If they introduce roll they must introduce sectionlized damage and line of sight shooting and being able to disable parts of the ship whcih all be for cool factor but I dont see it being feasible at the moment for eve. Maybe in another 5 years.


Then the game would need to be totally rebalanced in terms of damage/tracking exc.... I think this would be a major undertaking that would take an incredible amount of time without much enhancement of the players experience. Yes the "Pros" would use this to their advantage but the everyday player would see this to be a major block separating between noob and pro. A middle class is needed to allow players to stay interested and evolve.
Ruila Mutsari
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2012-01-21 20:36:18 UTC
It appears some things were posted while I was typing my previous reply.

Sorana Bonzari wrote:


My thoughts:
I think the game will become more difficult if we rid the game of a scene of up/down because its needed for pvp (above the gate/below the gate exc....) although allowing ships to roll upside down would be a cool addition to the game. (ship roll without camera roll to maintain the up/down feeling we need to pvp.)

If you had the ability to tilt your camera further, this would of course not mean there would not be "above the gate" or "below the gate" anymore. Relatively to the gate you can still be above it, or below it, etc. The gate itself would still have a top and a bottom.

And, let me say this again, it should be possible to turn this off in the settings. The way your camera works has no influence on other players' game experience. Whether your ship appears upside down in warp or simply straight up will not make a difference either.



Nova Fox wrote:

I have to aggre with the camera having peg points being a downer but the question is what does the camera do once it passes this peg point? does it auto level back out to system telemetry or the ships telemetetry? Either way its annoying and a solution is needed.

Why would it need to level out? The camera would just move the way it always does, except for being able to move over the top as well. You can infinitely spin your ship around around the z-axis, why not around the others too?

Nova Fox wrote:

If they introduce roll they must introduce sectionlized damage and line of sight shooting and being able to disable parts of the ship whcih all be for cool factor but I dont see it being feasible at the moment for eve. Maybe in another 5 years.

Rolling would have no influence on damage spread. Guns are positioned around the ship so that they can fire no matter where your target is. But I agree that it would take a lot more to implement, so that is definitely not what I am requesting.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#11 - 2012-01-21 21:54:44 UTC
I think what people are missing, is that your position in space is always relative to something else. You may not be able to see planets or other objects because of distance; but you should reasonably expect to see the sun, as well as stars in the background? Shadows on the hull during flight, for those parts of it you can see?

Unless you are unable to see at all, you will have one or more points of reference. Tracking them may be easy, or very hard should you be relying onlyy on the patterns available in the stars; something that could be very difficult when dog-fighting with another ship. Fortunately, you have the position, velocity, and trajectories of that other ship to rely on; and can use that as a point of reference.

If you are completely unable to see, then your only point of reference in space, is the ship or object you are in. If you have sensors, and can see those, then you may be able to do something with it; but otherwise, I would have to say you're SoL until someone comes to help you.
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Flette
Rosen Association
#12 - 2012-01-21 22:21:58 UTC
A couple of things:

First, the human mind does NOT map everything to 2D. This is simply wrong. Humans are good at 3D. To see for yourself, just imagine a sphere or ball. Now imagine it has a dot on it, or a label of some kind. Now imagine that ball rotating or being kicked, etc. We are good at 3D

Second, 3Dizing eve would definitely add complexity, and aside from your being bothered by the current 2dness, how would improving the sense of 3D add any value to the gameplay of Eve. In other words, what would it improve to be more 3D, or more planar neutral?

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#13 - 2012-01-21 23:14:50 UTC
Imagine a transparant ball on paper which you can only see the edges of, it has no shadow or light value its just clear. It has one dot on it. Spin ball and watch the human mind fail the ability to tell if the dot is on the inside or outside

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Flette
Rosen Association
#14 - 2012-01-21 23:47:02 UTC
OK, one more time. Imagine the shape of a car. Imagine the engine inside, or a chair, or the drivetrain, etc. Welcome to thinking in 3D.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#15 - 2012-01-22 06:43:33 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Imagine a transparant ball on paper which you can only see the edges of, it has no shadow or light value its just clear. It has one dot on it. Spin ball and watch the human mind fail the ability to tell if the dot is on the inside or outside


Just because you're incapable of thinking in 3 dimensions Nova, doesn't mean everybody else is. Also, taking theoretical devices and applying them to your logic is quite odd.

You're basing your premise here on the Human eye and the fashion in which sight works and is tranmitted and understood by the human mind. Not the same thing as thinking at all; it's like saying because you don't have the ability to see in the dark, you can't walk in it. Try telling that to a blind man.
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Ruila Mutsari
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-01-22 10:38:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Ruila Mutsari
The discussion about thinking in 2D or 3D, however interesting, is irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make.

In space there its no up or down, but in EVE there is, because of the way the camera is limited in its movement and because of the way ships are always aligned in the same direction. The changes I have proposed in the first post would, in my opinion, change this without making the game more complicated or breaking any game mechanics. For pilots who prefer the current camera, this could be an option in the settings.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#17 - 2012-01-23 19:50:04 UTC
Sorry I dont like barfing when my camera starts spinning out of control becuase it lost which way is up relevant to it.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Tidurious
Blatant Alt Corp
#18 - 2012-01-23 20:57:45 UTC
+1

This would be cool, and I agree - everyone always pointing "up" the same way has always annoyed me too.
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#19 - 2012-01-23 21:27:43 UTC
I've noticed that you can't quite go perfectly straight up, or straight down.

I'm wondering if this is more a limitation of the software in an attempt to prevent issues for the game engine that would result from gimbal lock.

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