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How effective is CSM? Time to get rid of it?
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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#81 - 2012-01-23 04:33:12 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:

I think you miss the point Ruby. They do. That is what they are there for; to represent all players in EVE equally. That is their tsk and their duty as detailed by CCP when they brought this all into being. They are not there to speak for their own , or their Corp, or even their Alliances best interests; they are intended to be objective and unbiased to the best of their ability, in representing the EVE playerbase as a whole. They are failing.


Show me where it says that. The CSM members are free to say whatever they want to CCP. The control on this is that they can be overthrown in the next election.

That said, this CSM has been doing a great job of telling CCP that it's about to do stupid shit. CCP is finally figuring out they should listen.


Akatenshi Xi wrote:

None of them represent me and what I am interested in nor does anyone in the government. And for damn sure Mittani doesn't represent my interests in the game, especially when his alliance and buddies are all about scamming people and all around screwing EVE Online up. I don't think anyone who is a leader of a major powerblock should be anywhere near the CSM, they will be looking out primarily for their alliance's interests.

Look at the trend in EVE, CSM isn't helping anything. Failed expansions, UI is crap, null sec is dying in favor of high sec, broken client, game mechanics screwed up. Where is CSM truly fixing any of this? There is a easier way to go about this, post in the forum and whatever gets a popular following probably should be worked on. Where is the need for a CSM now? Devs can't spend 5 minutes a day looking at the forum?


Then don't vote for leaders of major (however should we define that) powerblocs. Simple as that. I have never heard of the Mittani using his position as CSM chair to scam or otherwise grief people. GSF has been acting pretty much the same way since it began, so the people who voted for him knew what they were getting.

The major reason for the Incarna expansion's failure was released over the CSM's objections, and with CCP misrepresenting their words (Gold Scorpion).

As for forums, how do you define popular? Lots of activity? Cause that would include the "No, you're dumb" activity. Plus, people who are active on the forums is an even smaller proportion of the Eve Playerbase than the CSM voter's are.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Akatenshi Xi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2012-01-23 06:08:45 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


Then don't vote for leaders of major (however should we define that) powerblocs. Simple as that. I have never heard of the Mittani using his position as CSM chair to scam or otherwise grief people. GSF has been acting pretty much the same way since it began, so the people who voted for him knew what they were getting.

The major reason for the Incarna expansion's failure was released over the CSM's objections, and with CCP misrepresenting their words (Gold Scorpion).

As for forums, how do you define popular? Lots of activity? Cause that would include the "No, you're dumb" activity. Plus, people who are active on the forums is an even smaller proportion of the Eve Playerbase than the CSM voter's are.


So you just blindly believe that? If I pulled up to you on the street and had free candy written on the side of my van would you get in?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#83 - 2012-01-23 06:12:28 UTC
Akatenshi Xi wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


Then don't vote for leaders of major (however should we define that) powerblocs. Simple as that. I have never heard of the Mittani using his position as CSM chair to scam or otherwise grief people. GSF has been acting pretty much the same way since it began, so the people who voted for him knew what they were getting.

The major reason for the Incarna expansion's failure was released over the CSM's objections, and with CCP misrepresenting their words (Gold Scorpion).

As for forums, how do you define popular? Lots of activity? Cause that would include the "No, you're dumb" activity. Plus, people who are active on the forums is an even smaller proportion of the Eve Playerbase than the CSM voter's are.


So you just blindly believe that? If I pulled up to you on the street and had free candy written on the side of my van would you get in?


Blindly believe what? I lost me eyes in the war. How else can I believe.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Joshua Aivoras
Tech IV Industries
#84 - 2012-01-23 15:07:28 UTC
While I do agree with most of the CSM's opinions and ideas, they do occasionally pitch things that make me raise an eyebrow.

Like the Wormhole stabilizer thing. I know they have all played EVE WAY more than I have (I'm coming up on a year soon), but being as new as I am I still recognized the fail in that.

95% of the players are loving EVE, the other 5%? On the forums.
Solinuas
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2012-01-23 15:14:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Solinuas
You know if anybody has issues with not being represented, its quite simple

next run elect someone that actually represents you! (or yourself if you could manage)
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#86 - 2012-01-23 15:24:32 UTC
Aren't there more players in high sec than there are in null sec?

If only said high sec players could...band together and vote for candidates of their own choosing. But I suppose that would require ::effort:: and ::teamwork:: and ::organization::, three things that are rather silly for an MMO.

Basically, the reason the CSM represents all us terrible null sec players is because we actually organize our playerbase to get the votes. Unfortunately for high sec players, the vast majority have epic egos (good god how many <10 character alt corps are there in high sec?) and refuse to work together.
Akatenshi Xi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#87 - 2012-01-23 20:34:52 UTC
Yeah, you bring up another good point of how FAIL the CSM is. I'm pretty sure Test and Goons got together and sent out mails saying everyone get on the forum and vote Mittens in.

A lot of high sec corps and alliances aren't as big as the nullsec alliances and coalitions.

CSM = Fail, Just Epic Fail
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#88 - 2012-01-24 03:31:17 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Akatenshi Xi wrote:
Yeah, you bring up another good point of how FAIL the CSM is. I'm pretty sure Test and Goons got together and sent out mails saying everyone get on the forum and vote Mittens in.

A lot of high sec corps and alliances aren't as big as the nullsec alliances and coalitions.

CSM = Fail, Just Epic Fail


Organization wins elections. There was no accountability in the votes, so no Alliance could threaten their members with anything at all, since they wouldn't be able to check who people voted for. I fail to see how that's so horrible.

If you find an election system whose result is not able to be influenced by political parties, I will eat my hat.*

*Election system must result in a winner through votes alone. Must include the votes of everyone who wants to vote. Must not include murder (that's come up before).

Oh, and Hisec has more than 10 times the population of Nullsec. And Lowsec. And WH space. Combined. WH space is the smallest population and they have a guy representing them.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Heathkit
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2012-01-24 07:27:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Heathkit
The CSM is completely ineffective and way too powerful.

(on an unrelated note, I'd really like to see a chart of subscriber numbers showing what happened when CCP started listening to the CSM...)

Also, it would be nice to have a direct feedback system. Dreamhost did this really well, I think. They gave everyone a fixed number of "feature request points", and you could allocate your points among the features you cared most about. You could also give up some of your points to suggest a new feature.

I think some kind of community-driven, google moderator style feature suggest system would be a nice complement to the CSM.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#90 - 2012-01-24 07:41:51 UTC
Heathkit wrote:
The CSM is completely ineffective and way too powerful.

(on an unrelated note, I'd really like to see a chart of subscriber numbers showing what happened when CCP started listening to the CSM...)

Also, it would be nice to have a direct feedback system. Dreamhost did this really well, I think. They gave everyone a fixed number of "feature request points", and you could allocate your points among the features you cared most about. You could also give up some of your points to suggest a new feature.

I think some kind of community-driven, google moderator style feature suggest system would be a nice complement to the CSM.


The CSM is either ineffective or powerful. If they're ineffective, they lack power. If powerful, they're not ineffective. If you mean that they don't agree wit your views, sure that's possible, but then why did you vote for them/not get a different candidate elected.

Who moderates the feature requests? CCP? Cause they do gud at that stuff.

As for numbers, Chribba's got some charts over at eve offline. But since the emergency summit (where CCP realized they need to listen to the CSM), the numbers have stopped falling and started to climb back to normal.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Valei Khurelem
#91 - 2012-01-24 07:52:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Valei Khurelem
What they should do is more surveys and polls that target actual players again rather than these stupid forum troll elections, this is a game, not real life. I don't come here to be Ron Paul and argue with the establishment for 50+ years until they start finally listening to me only when things go completely wrong.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#92 - 2012-01-24 16:16:51 UTC
Valei Khurelem wrote:
What they should do is more surveys and polls that target actual players again rather than these stupid forum troll elections, this is a game, not real life. I don't come here to be Ron Paul and argue with the establishment for 50+ years until they start finally listening to me only when things go completely wrong.


Who writes the surveys/polls and who reads/interprets them? Believe me, you can get a poll to turn up whatever responses you want.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#93 - 2012-01-24 16:29:08 UTC
Valei Khurelem wrote:
What they should do is more surveys and polls that target actual players again rather than these stupid forum troll elections, this is a game, not real life. I don't come here to be Ron Paul and argue with the establishment for 50+ years until they start finally listening to me only when things go completely wrong.


or high sec morons could organize themselves and vote for a candidate of their choice instead of having a few hundred candidates and thus a massive splintering of votes
Tauren Tom
Order of the Silver Dragons
Silver Dragonz
#94 - 2012-01-24 17:11:57 UTC
1) DIsband CSM
2) CCP hires an actual staff dedicated to seeing what players want/need via surveys, joining fleets and interaction with the playerbase thereby making new jobs and helping lower unemployment.
3) ???
4)PROFIT.
In the grand scheme of things... You're all pubbies. So HTFU.   "It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses." - Elwood Blues
Thomas Abernathy
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#95 - 2012-01-24 18:26:50 UTC
Andski wrote:
If you don't want a nullsec-focused CSM, why don't you make a serious effort to organize like-minded players into voting for candidates that represent you? Is that too much work, or are you blaming CCP and the CSM for your own lack of charisma and initiative?

The issue is clearly not the CSM being ineffective, it is them focusing on a part of the game that doesn't interest you, or them pushing for changes that are detrimental to the way you play the game.



Getting total strangers to vote for someone outside their Alliance is easy money in highsec right? And since their are only a few large alliances in highsec, it should be no problem to get them all in the same boat.....Roll

Back to reality, Highsec is a huge fragmented mess, with thousands of small to medium corps and tons of NPC fliers that don't communicate or interact much at all. Just how do you expect anyone to organize that and get a significant number of these people on the same page?
Then you have the communication issue, do you really think the average highsec dweller reads the forums? Shocked
I know Goon's standards are geting pretty bad Andski, but you can't be that naive...

"Fighting CCD since 2139"
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#96 - 2012-01-24 18:31:31 UTC
Thomas Abernathy wrote:
Highsec is a huge fragmented mess, with thousands of small to medium corps and tons of NPC fliers that don't communicate or interact much at all.


Whose fault is that?

Quote:
Just how do you expect anyone to organize that and get a significant number of these people on the same page?


If they cared enough, they would do it. As it stands, we have a vocal minority of high sec players complaining about the CSM on the forums.