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Idea: Rage Rolling
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Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2017-05-23 16:38:11 UTC
While I understand the need to static wormholes to reappear once closed. I believe we need to add a 5-10 minute delay on the closing of these wormholes. It was decided by the Dev team that large fleets instantly crossing the universe was a bad thing, and this current mechanic allows exactly that. Making this change would put wormholes more in-line with the current jump fatigue mechanic that exists today.
Rhaegon Aesir
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2017-05-23 16:48:33 UTC
Ooooh, look! An elite nullsec pilot is proposing a giant nerf to wormhole space because he thinks that he's special, and anyone who actually live in wormholes don't matter at all!
Lugh Crow-Slave
#3 - 2017-05-23 17:44:04 UTC
not to mention has 0 understanding of the mechanic.


trust me snowflake this is no way to get large fleets anyplace

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2017-05-23 19:09:54 UTC
Rhaegon Aesir wrote:
Ooooh, look! An elite nullsec pilot is proposing a giant nerf to wormhole space because he thinks that he's special, and anyone who actually live in wormholes don't matter at all!


I have and DO live in a wormhole. I know EXACTLY how this mechanic works. I'm not allowed to link killboards on the forums, however there are large wormhole alliances that do exactly this. They roll WHs over and over to appear on top of ratters/miners and kill them. So how about you provide actual constructive conversation, instead of just making crap up on the forums to get your jollies.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#5 - 2017-05-23 19:24:30 UTC
1 to get to any specific location you are lucky to only spend a couple of hours rolling nothing instant about that

2 you are limited in the mass of the fleet you can bring even more so if you also plan to go back the way you came

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6 - 2017-05-23 19:30:56 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
1 to get to any specific location you are lucky to only spend a couple of hours rolling nothing instant about that

2 you are limited in the mass of the fleet you can bring even more so if you also plan to go back the way you came


They don't do it for a 'specific' location. They just rage roll their null sec static looking for carriers/rorqs. Referring to the mass issue, lets say you have a S199 null sec static. That's 3billion mass. A fit tengu is what, 10million? So a fleet of 140 T3 cruisers can appear in your system at any time. Blap you, and be home safe in time for dinner. No not a large fleet at all. ROFL
Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7 - 2017-05-23 19:37:21 UTC
Rhaegon Aesir wrote:
Ooooh, look! An elite nullsec pilot is proposing a giant nerf to wormhole space because he thinks that he's special, and anyone who actually live in wormholes don't matter at all!


Also how is a slight delay on the appearance of a replacement static hole a "HUGE" nerf to wormhole space?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#8 - 2017-05-23 19:38:03 UTC
first off thats just finding content and is not the same as the instant travel issue ccp has been trying to combat. that issue was lowing the amount of content as space was becoming dominated by few large groups and most small ones were unable to use anything bigger than a BB without a large risk of being dropped on by slowcats.

second this is a mechanic that counters the overwhelming security of blue space and intel CH. and is working as intended

you want to rat or mine in capitals do so with a response fleet waiting or be ready to lose it

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9 - 2017-05-23 19:55:22 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
first off thats just finding content and is not the same as the instant travel issue ccp has been trying to combat. that issue was lowing the amount of content as space was becoming dominated by few large groups and most small ones were unable to use anything bigger than a BB without a large risk of being dropped on by slowcats.

second this is a mechanic that counters the overwhelming security of blue space and intel CH. and is working as intended

you want to rat or mine in capitals do so with a response fleet waiting or be ready to lose it


PVE is also content for some. That being said so let me get this straight.

Capital Jumps were nerfed because you might get dropped on by a big fleet, but we can't nerf wormholes because you might get dropped on by a big fleet? You're pretty much making my argument for me. This is a mechanic with no counter play. This can be easily fixed by doing the following.

Add a 5 minute delay to the WH appearing in space.
During that 5 minute delay a 'disturbance' appears in both systems, that shows up on your ship scanner. This would give both systems some sort of warning to the WH appearing. Instead of the current mechanic of SUPRISE yer boned.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#10 - 2017-05-23 20:04:47 UTC
Dracvlad? Is that you?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Lugh Crow-Slave
#11 - 2017-05-23 20:16:29 UTC
Kassimila wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
first off thats just finding content and is not the same as the instant travel issue ccp has been trying to combat. that issue was lowing the amount of content as space was becoming dominated by few large groups and most small ones were unable to use anything bigger than a BB without a large risk of being dropped on by slowcats.

second this is a mechanic that counters the overwhelming security of blue space and intel CH. and is working as intended

you want to rat or mine in capitals do so with a response fleet waiting or be ready to lose it


PVE is also content for some. That being said so let me get this straight.

Capital Jumps were nerfed because you might get dropped on by a big fleet, but we can't nerf wormholes because you might get dropped on by a big fleet? You're pretty much making my argument for me. This is a mechanic with no counter play. This can be easily fixed by doing the following.

Add a 5 minute delay to the WH appearing in space.
During that 5 minute delay a 'disturbance' appears in both systems, that shows up on your ship scanner. This would give both systems some sort of warning to the WH appearing. Instead of the current mechanic of SUPRISE yer boned.




you do realize that wh used to spawn on both sides the second some one warped to the WH right? this was changed INTENTIONALLY to make it so they did not spawn until some one jumped through in order to ensure risk averse players didn't just run and hide with the advanced warning.


a capital fleet being able to freely chose a target to drop on from anyplace in new eaden is not the same as a fleet finding a target of opportunity in a random location. besides you are not going to get 140 tengues just BOOM on top of you like you do with a cyno. even if for some reason that group jumps w/o any form of scouting for whatever reason you still get the local spike in advance. so once again unless you are using UNSUPPORTED capitals your fine and you can react and counter

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#12 - 2017-05-23 20:56:11 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Kassimila wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
first off thats just finding content and is not the same as the instant travel issue ccp has been trying to combat. that issue was lowing the amount of content as space was becoming dominated by few large groups and most small ones were unable to use anything bigger than a BB without a large risk of being dropped on by slowcats.

second this is a mechanic that counters the overwhelming security of blue space and intel CH. and is working as intended

you want to rat or mine in capitals do so with a response fleet waiting or be ready to lose it


PVE is also content for some. That being said so let me get this straight.

Capital Jumps were nerfed because you might get dropped on by a big fleet, but we can't nerf wormholes because you might get dropped on by a big fleet? You're pretty much making my argument for me. This is a mechanic with no counter play. This can be easily fixed by doing the following.

Add a 5 minute delay to the WH appearing in space.
During that 5 minute delay a 'disturbance' appears in both systems, that shows up on your ship scanner. This would give both systems some sort of warning to the WH appearing. Instead of the current mechanic of SUPRISE yer boned.




you do realize that wh used to spawn on both sides the second some one warped to the WH right? this was changed INTENTIONALLY to make it so they did not spawn until some one jumped through in order to ensure risk averse players didn't just run and hide with the advanced warning.


a capital fleet being able to freely chose a target to drop on from anyplace in new eaden is not the same as a fleet finding a target of opportunity in a random location. besides you are not going to get 140 tengues just BOOM on top of you like you do with a cyno. even if for some reason that group jumps w/o any form of scouting for whatever reason you still get the local spike in advance. so once again unless you are using UNSUPPORTED capitals your fine and you can react and counter


Few things:

That change was not made for that reason. That change was made to allow WH corps to roll away holes and actually lock there systems down for PVE activity. Which is EXACTLY what it is used for.

Secondly Cyno Jamming system upgrades are available to prevent cyno deployment on you.

Lastly: Yes they will probably send in a few scout dictors. That being said if you're sieged in an asteroid anom, or ratting in a sanctum unaligned (yes your fault). They can get to you long before you could dream of warping out.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#13 - 2017-05-23 21:46:24 UTC
Kassimila wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Kassimila wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
first off thats just finding content and is not the same as the instant travel issue ccp has been trying to combat. that issue was lowing the amount of content as space was becoming dominated by few large groups and most small ones were unable to use anything bigger than a BB without a large risk of being dropped on by slowcats.

second this is a mechanic that counters the overwhelming security of blue space and intel CH. and is working as intended

you want to rat or mine in capitals do so with a response fleet waiting or be ready to lose it


PVE is also content for some. That being said so let me get this straight.

Capital Jumps were nerfed because you might get dropped on by a big fleet, but we can't nerf wormholes because you might get dropped on by a big fleet? You're pretty much making my argument for me. This is a mechanic with no counter play. This can be easily fixed by doing the following.

Add a 5 minute delay to the WH appearing in space.
During that 5 minute delay a 'disturbance' appears in both systems, that shows up on your ship scanner. This would give both systems some sort of warning to the WH appearing. Instead of the current mechanic of SUPRISE yer boned.




you do realize that wh used to spawn on both sides the second some one warped to the WH right? this was changed INTENTIONALLY to make it so they did not spawn until some one jumped through in order to ensure risk averse players didn't just run and hide with the advanced warning.


a capital fleet being able to freely chose a target to drop on from anyplace in new eaden is not the same as a fleet finding a target of opportunity in a random location. besides you are not going to get 140 tengues just BOOM on top of you like you do with a cyno. even if for some reason that group jumps w/o any form of scouting for whatever reason you still get the local spike in advance. so once again unless you are using UNSUPPORTED capitals your fine and you can react and counter


Few things:

That change was not made for that reason. That change was made to allow WH corps to roll away holes and actually lock there systems down for PVE activity. Which is EXACTLY what it is used for.

Secondly Cyno Jamming system upgrades are available to prevent cyno deployment on you.

Lastly: Yes they will probably send in a few scout dictors. That being said if you're sieged in an asteroid anom, or ratting in a sanctum unaligned (yes your fault). They can get to you long before you could dream of warping out.


FYI, the change to wormholes was not done to allow you to just bear in peace. It was to allow the attacker a slight edge when a new connection is formed. It used to be that the new signature would spawn even before you had your scout land at the wormhole, givint the other side ample time to get safe. The change was done to give the attackers a chance to actually catch people.

You have always been able to close down connections in a particular wormhole-system to give you some security.

Wormholer for life.
Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#14 - 2017-05-23 21:56:09 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:


FYI, the change to wormholes was not done to allow you to just bear in peace. It was to allow the attacker a slight edge when a new connection is formed. It used to be that the new signature would spawn even before you had your scout land at the wormhole, givint the other side ample time to get safe. The change was done to give the attackers a chance to actually catch people.

You have always been able to close down connections in a particular wormhole-system to give you some security.


If that truly is the case it seems very one sided. The solution from the null sec end of things is 'have a support fleet ready', except nullsec support fleets had their legs cut off with the Jump Fatigue changes. The only other option I can think of is to allow system owners to place some sort of 'wormhole' jammer in their systems, to prevent it from opening right on top of them.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#15 - 2017-05-23 21:57:39 UTC
Kassimila wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:


FYI, the change to wormholes was not done to allow you to just bear in peace. It was to allow the attacker a slight edge when a new connection is formed. It used to be that the new signature would spawn even before you had your scout land at the wormhole, givint the other side ample time to get safe. The change was done to give the attackers a chance to actually catch people.

You have always been able to close down connections in a particular wormhole-system to give you some security.


If that truly is the case it seems very one sided. The solution from the null sec end of things is 'have a support fleet ready', except nullsec support fleets had their legs cut off with the Jump Fatigue changes. The only other option I can think of is to allow system owners to place some sort of 'wormhole' jammer in their systems, to prevent it from opening right on top of them.


So you are basically complaining that wormholers shouldn't be allowed to attack random targets through their connections, no matter how stupid the targets may be?

Wormholer for life.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2017-05-23 22:06:43 UTC
Kassimila wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:


FYI, the change to wormholes was not done to allow you to just bear in peace. It was to allow the attacker a slight edge when a new connection is formed. It used to be that the new signature would spawn even before you had your scout land at the wormhole, givint the other side ample time to get safe. The change was done to give the attackers a chance to actually catch people.

You have always been able to close down connections in a particular wormhole-system to give you some security.


If that truly is the case it seems very one sided. The solution from the null sec end of things is 'have a support fleet ready', except nullsec support fleets had their legs cut off with the Jump Fatigue changes. The only other option I can think of is to allow system owners to place some sort of 'wormhole' jammer in their systems, to prevent it from opening right on top of them.



HI.

You're really bad at carrier ratting. Is it really hat hard to 1) fit a cyno and 2) be in range of your staging system?

Dotlan tells me most of Tenal is in range if you start in the middle, where your highest jumps are incidentally, so you have no-one to blame but yourself if you're ratting out of range of help.
Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2017-05-23 22:11:03 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:


So you are basically complaining that wormholers shouldn't be allowed to attack random targets through their connections, no matter how stupid the targets may be?


No not at all. I mean there is already a system upgrade that makes MORE wormholes appear in your system. So why not a different upgrade that makes it be less/none? Or my previous suggestion that provides some warning to the appearance of one if you're watching scanner.

Does it make sense to you that a WH corp/alliance should be able to drop a fleet into a system with no warning what so ever? What if they added a titan module that allowed people to bridge into a random system with no cyno? A mini Wormhole generator if you will. Do you think that would be a fair and balanced piece of equipment?
Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2017-05-23 22:15:32 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:



HI.

You're really bad at carrier ratting. Is it really hat hard to 1) fit a cyno and 2) be in range of your staging system?

Dotlan tells me most of Tenal is in range if you start in the middle, where your highest jumps are incidentally, so you have no-one to blame but yourself if you're ratting out of range of help.


I am? Funny....1 single carrier loss on my killboard, and it wasn't ratting. Did you just feel like spewing out random garbage? Also, didn't goons lose like 26 rorqs in one go, within jump range of their staging system? Perhaps those of us in glass houses should not throw rocks.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#19 - 2017-05-23 22:32:36 UTC
Kassimila wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Kassimila wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
first off thats just finding content and is not the same as the instant travel issue ccp has been trying to combat. that issue was lowing the amount of content as space was becoming dominated by few large groups and most small ones were unable to use anything bigger than a BB without a large risk of being dropped on by slowcats.

second this is a mechanic that counters the overwhelming security of blue space and intel CH. and is working as intended

you want to rat or mine in capitals do so with a response fleet waiting or be ready to lose it


PVE is also content for some. That being said so let me get this straight.

Capital Jumps were nerfed because you might get dropped on by a big fleet, but we can't nerf wormholes because you might get dropped on by a big fleet? You're pretty much making my argument for me. This is a mechanic with no counter play. This can be easily fixed by doing the following.

Add a 5 minute delay to the WH appearing in space.
During that 5 minute delay a 'disturbance' appears in both systems, that shows up on your ship scanner. This would give both systems some sort of warning to the WH appearing. Instead of the current mechanic of SUPRISE yer boned.




you do realize that wh used to spawn on both sides the second some one warped to the WH right? this was changed INTENTIONALLY to make it so they did not spawn until some one jumped through in order to ensure risk averse players didn't just run and hide with the advanced warning.


a capital fleet being able to freely chose a target to drop on from anyplace in new eaden is not the same as a fleet finding a target of opportunity in a random location. besides you are not going to get 140 tengues just BOOM on top of you like you do with a cyno. even if for some reason that group jumps w/o any form of scouting for whatever reason you still get the local spike in advance. so once again unless you are using UNSUPPORTED capitals your fine and you can react and counter


Few things:

That change was not made for that reason. That change was made to allow WH corps to roll away holes and actually lock there systems down for PVE activity. Which is EXACTLY what it is used for.

Secondly Cyno Jamming system upgrades are available to prevent cyno deployment on you.

Lastly: Yes they will probably send in a few scout dictors. That being said if you're sieged in an asteroid anom, or ratting in a sanctum unaligned (yes your fault). They can get to you long before you could dream of warping out.



That mechanic has nothing to do with securing a system it makes it less secure

Those don't make you safe from cynos

If you are sieged you have support or you're an idiot. If you're not aligned you're an idiot. Eve punishes stupid

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#20 - 2017-05-23 22:35:54 UTC
Kassimila wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:



HI.

You're really bad at carrier ratting. Is it really hat hard to 1) fit a cyno and 2) be in range of your staging system?

Dotlan tells me most of Tenal is in range if you start in the middle, where your highest jumps are incidentally, so you have no-one to blame but yourself if you're ratting out of range of help.


I am? Funny....1 single carrier loss on my killboard, and it wasn't ratting. Did you just feel like spewing out random garbage? Also, didn't goons lose like 26 rorqs in one go, within jump range of their staging system? Perhaps those of us in glass houses should not throw rocks.



If it's so safe that you have never even lost on then clearly these op fleet dropping fleets aren't actually all that much of a problem are they?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
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